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Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 2:05:08 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		I'm setting aside all other issues this coming election and voting for the most coherent plan for Universal Healthcare.

The Iraq Invasion is purposefully being set up as the problem for the next president. The pull out is going to suck big time, but I hope that the blame for this debacle can be placed squarely at the feet of Shrub Jr. I think people just might understand that it's an inherited problem. Hell, I hope criminal charges against members of the current administration will be pending once they are out of office and executive privilege and other BS legal dodges won't protect them. It might be fun to watch actual murderers suffer for the consequences of their outrageous political and warmongering acts.

Choice is an issue with which I am always concerned. I think reproductive freedom is fundamental to a free society - as important as any other civil liberty and not just as an afterthought. But this election there are way bigger fish to fry, and I don't think my state is going to allow this freedom to slip away in any case. Plus I think the SCOTUS is going to toss this issue stateside anyway so maybe a federal rule on the issue is going to become superfluous in the near future. So no real worries there.

And while there are so many other issues that concern me, I'm just going to wipe the slate clean of them. And I can tell you that my one remaining issue is an excellent litmus test for a candidate's views on a whole host of other issues.

My simple message is this:

Universal Healthcare now.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 2:13:28 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		So instead of the HMOs making your healthcare decisions....you want the government to make your healthcare decisions?

That's the fundamental problem with "universal healthcare." You make the government one giant insurance company. The person or entity paying the bill will always be the one making the decisions. Unless you opt to pay for your own healthcare out of pocket, you usually dont get the care or treatment you want.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 2:22:30 PM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		Could not agree more and I am a person that benefits greatly in my pocket book from our current health care system.

The system is broken, has a continuing drain on the populations wealth and therefore freedom, quality of the health care should not be based on who can afford it and the system is totally based on the fox guarding the hen house.

If America is supposed to be this great country why are we practically the last “civilized” country in the world to have this? I get so tired of the one common excuse; the government will just screw it up. It is already screwed up and we cannot continue to pat ourselves in the back at just how great our country is and then duck this issue because we do not have the effort to fix it.

This country use to be concerned about leaving a better country for their children. Now we have a President who charges a war off to them and the rest of us going well the health care system should hold up for me so I do not care about my children and grandchildren.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 2:24:07 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
That's the fundamental problem with "universal healthcare." You make the government one giant insurance company. The person or entity paying the bill will always be the one making the decisions. Unless you opt to pay for your own healthcare out of pocket, you usually dont get the care or treatment you want.


So, make up your mind already - do you want insurance or personal responsibility?

Is there some reason that having one of the probably hundreds of private insurers making decisions for you is a better deal? What if they drop you? Haven't you seen "Sicko" yet? Private insurers exist to profit and they don't care about you.

Private insurance is not the answer.

And given that most people would easily be bankrupted by even common medical procedures, I doubt many think that the "personal responsibility" route is even viable. If people could only receive the healthcare they could afford by themselves a lot more people would be dead already.

Personal responsibility is not the answer either.



< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 9/14/2007 2:25:32 PM >

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 2:29:15 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

So instead of the HMOs making your healthcare decisions....you want the government to make your healthcare decisions?

That's the fundamental problem with "universal healthcare." You make the government one giant insurance company. The person or entity paying the bill will always be the one making the decisions. Unless you opt to pay for your own healthcare out of pocket, you usually dont get the care or treatment you want.


Cyberdude, who says we have to have "the govt" run it?
They can collect the taxes for it but we should have a whole different entity actually do the day to day management of it.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 2:33:26 PM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline 		Get the gooberment OUT OF 'health care'!!!

If I wanta buy and imbibe snake oil, then damnit, it ought be MY RIGHT to so risk.

'Course, I [in this context only, mind] do reserve full rights for myself [or my estate]
to sue the pants off (euphamism) of the peddlar,
should I come to some ill end result in consequence therefrom.

I would expect such 'ill end result'
to be some status MORE DIRE than what I may otherwise have faced,
taking into FULL ACCOUNT
the FULL LIST of 'possible side effects' I might otherwise have risked,
had I gone the PREFERRED allopathic aka pharmaceutical route.

Gah

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 2:36:09 PM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline 		Kucinich

Throw out the 'Middle Men' Insurance Entities

Taxpayer funds direct to the Providers of Health Care

Practical

Of course, should he get newheres near becoming a Viable Candidate

...the Wallace Solution

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

(in reply to kiyari)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 2:39:55 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

So instead of the HMOs making your healthcare decisions....you want the government to make your healthcare decisions?



......and if you actually believe in the democratic process that makes health care accountable...directly accountable.....to the public. As opposed to accountable to the share holders.

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 2:51:35 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

So instead of the HMOs making your healthcare decisions....you want the government to make your healthcare decisions?

Absolutely. HMOs are too busy trying to find ways out of paying. They like to call everything an "experimental procedure." They also like to find ways to cancel people's insurance. Imagine a woman having her insurance cancelled for not listing a yeast infection (something that can be cured with over the counter medication) she had several years ago as a pre-existing condition. You need to watch Sicko.

That's the fundamental problem with "universal healthcare." You make the government one giant insurance company. The person or entity paying the bill will always be the one making the decisions. Unless you opt to pay for your own healthcare out of pocket, you usually dont get the care or treatment you want.


US doctors are given bonuses for turning patients away. A universal healthcare doctor's salary is based on the quality of healthcare given to patients. Why would a doctor paid by the government want to give second rate care when his salary increases are based on top rate care? Would you rather have a doctor that gets bonuses for turning patients away or providing second rate care, or would you rather see a doctor who's salary is based on top rate care? Which doctor do you think would take better care of your medical needs?

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 3:02:17 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		Excellent point, defiantbadgirl. You have hit the bullseye there.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 3:08:35 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

I'm setting aside all other issues this coming election and voting for the most coherent plan for Universal Healthcare.

The Iraq Invasion is purposefully being set up as the problem for the next president. The pull out is going to suck big time, but I hope that the blame for this debacle can be placed squarely at the feet of Shrub Jr. I think people just might understand that it's an inherited problem. Hell, I hope criminal charges against members of the current administration will be pending once they are out of office and executive privilege and other BS legal dodges won't protect them. It might be fun to watch actual murderers suffer for the consequences of their outrageous political and warmongering acts.

I agree. It is murder. Of course if they were sentenced to death row they would receive free healthcare while in prison and die painlessly from lethal injection. There is something seriously wrong with the US when death row inmates die virtually painless deaths while innocent americans die slow painful deaths from lack of healthcare.

My simple message is this:

Universal Healthcare now.


Who do you plan to vote for in the presidential election? Hillary Clinton seems to have quite a following but I'm disturbed about the fact that she allowed herself to be paid off the first time she came up with a universal healthcare plan (according to Sicko).

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 3:17:18 PM   
WickedBDSM


Posts: 37
Joined: 6/20/2007
Status: offline 		[/quote]
 A universal healthcare doctor's salary is based on the quality of healthcare given to patients. Why would a doctor paid by the government want to give second rate care when his salary increases are based on top rate care? Would you rather have a doctor that gets bonuses for turning patients away or providing second rate care, or would you rather see a doctor who's salary is based on top rate care? Which doctor do you think would take better care of your medical needs?
[/quote]
Is that like a public school teacher's salary is based on the quality of education they provide to their students? We all know how well that's working...

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 3:26:44 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		I agree that a public school teacher's salary isn't based on the quality of education they provide to their students. I also think it should be. The key to a good universal healthcare program as well as good universal education is for the government to base teacher's salaries and doctor's salaries on quality of education and healthcare. If other countries can do it, so can the US.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to WickedBDSM)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 4:25:15 PM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline 		Besides collecting taxes and killing people, what is the gov't really good at?   Reminds me of song "War"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_%28Edwin_Starr_song%29

We need to get gov't OUT of our lives.   Reminds me of how my grandparents were promised things about Social Security, such as the maximum rate of 1%, etc, etc, etc.


_------ Two term limits:  One in Congress and one in prison, both of equal length!

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 4:35:58 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedBDSM
Is that like a public school teacher's salary is based on the quality of education they provide to their students? We all know how well that's working...


WickedBDSM:
I am not sure what your point is here, perhaps you might elucidate.
thompson

(in reply to WickedBDSM)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 4:46:28 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		"Universal" healthcare for minors, and perhaps the truly disabled and eldery, sure.  Minors aren't able to take care of themselves, some elderly might not be as able, and the truly disabled probably won't be, so that's fine.

Why in the world should normal adults need universal healthcare though?  Are we saying it's okay to just get a low paying job and stay there or blow your cash and let other people pick up the slack for you?

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 4:48:40 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

Besides collecting taxes and killing people, what is the gov't really good at?   Reminds me of song "War"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_%28Edwin_Starr_song%29

We need to get gov't OUT of our lives.   Reminds me of how my grandparents were promised things about Social Security, such as the maximum rate of 1%, etc, etc, etc.


_------ Two term limits:  One in Congress and one in prison, both of equal length!



Crush:
Actually the government is not all that good at killing people or collecting taxes.  During the revolutionary war it took something less than 100 bullets to kill one of the enemy....now it is something over 100,000 per body bag...as for collecting taxes...it seems I read someplace that the underground economy is deep into 8 figgures...go figure.
Yes I am still in favor of universal health care in spite of the governments poor record it is still  a better choice than the private insurance companies that are in cahoots with the AMA and the pharmaceutical companies.  The reason I believe this is that it (the government) would have different goals and thus different results,hopefully.
thompson

(in reply to Crush)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 4:53:27 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

So instead of the HMOs making your healthcare decisions....you want the government to make your healthcare decisions?

Absolutely. HMOs are too busy trying to find ways out of paying. They like to call everything an "experimental procedure." They also like to find ways to cancel people's insurance. Imagine a woman having her insurance cancelled for not listing a yeast infection (something that can be cured with over the counter medication) she had several years ago as a pre-existing condition. You need to watch Sicko.

That's the fundamental problem with "universal healthcare." You make the government one giant insurance company. The person or entity paying the bill will always be the one making the decisions. Unless you opt to pay for your own healthcare out of pocket, you usually dont get the care or treatment you want.


US doctors are given bonuses for turning patients away. A universal healthcare doctor's salary is based on the quality of healthcare given to patients. Why would a doctor paid by the government want to give second rate care when his salary increases are based on top rate care? Would you rather have a doctor that gets bonuses for turning patients away or providing second rate care, or would you rather see a doctor who's salary is based on top rate care? Which doctor do you think would take better care of your medical needs?


If there's one thing I know about government workers, it that's I want no part of them involved with anything that's important to my life.  They've lost my transcript, court documentation, failed to provide me with legally mandated notifications of importance, etc.  In charge of health?  No.. I'll still perfer a company based around fiscal accountability to customers.

This, plus I seriously don't want the government being in charge of life-or-death decisions.  I'm not a conspiracy theorist or antiestablishmentarian, true; still, I believe it would be naive to give the government that level of power over individuals.

All of this only goes along with many more points that I'm afraid time bars me from making at the moment, but I suppose these points will do for now.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 4:55:38 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
Who do you plan to vote for in the presidential election?


Damn! None of the above so far. I feel entirely unmoved by any of them. And I while I am not actually a Democrat, I almost never vote Republican. Some people think that Gore will run eventually. I'd probably vote for him if he had a decent Universal Healthcare plan. I'm not a fan, but I think he was actually elected president in 2000. It might be good to see him have his chance properly.

But I am voting an issue - not a person. And I am sick of these incremental plans. Blow it all up - we need something altogether new.

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
Hillary Clinton seems to have quite a following but I'm disturbed about the fact that she allowed herself to be paid off the first time she came up with a universal healthcare plan (according to Sicko).


Yeah, she's a consummate politician - not a great recommendation. And let's accept the fact that the Clintons would be a very polarizing choice at this time. I don't despise them or anything, but I don't really like them either.

I won't vote for Hillary unless I have no other reasonable option.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/14/2007 5:03:00 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

"Universal" healthcare for minors, and perhaps the truly disabled and eldery, sure.  Minors aren't able to take care of themselves, some elderly might not be as able, and the truly disabled probably won't be, so that's fine.

Why in the world should normal adults need universal healthcare though?  Are we saying it's okay to just get a low paying job and stay there or blow your cash and let other people pick up the slack for you?


CuriousLord:
That is not the definition of universal health care.
Like public streets and public education there will always be those who use but do not pay.  That is no reason for the rest of us to do without.  I hope you are not suggesting that many people will intentionally get sick just so they can access the health care system. 
thompson

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 20
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