RE: No Limits: How far would you go?

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Bobkgin -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 7:57:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Last time I checked I wasn't made out of clay. Molding limits growth, you push back here and pinch a bit off of there. Many who believe in molding say things like "mold me to be all I can be". Well if you are molding and trying to get the person to "fit", it seems to me that in itself is limiting. I prefer my growth to be unlimited. Granted, there are some who can only assume control when they take it, and some who can only be controlled when it is taken from them. In my mind that smacks more of coercion, not dominance and submission which to me, come from a place of inspiration. The growth that results from the latter is more of a blossoming than a controlled (limiting) molding and polishing. As I said earlier, molding can be either benign or malicious. There is nothing inherently limiting about molding. Molding can be liberating for the individual molded if, for example, the individual being molded is plagued with self-esteem issues, or substance abuse (I mentioned tobacco and food earlier), or other self-defeating personality traits. On the other hand, molding can be used to create all those problems as easily as it can be used to solve them. It is a matter of who is wielding that power, and what moral/ethical standards are being applied in the use of molding.

AquaticSub -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 8:15:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Molding can be liberating for the individual molded if, for example, the individual being molded is plagued with self-esteem issues, or substance abuse (I mentioned tobacco and food earlier), or other self-defeating personality traits. On the other hand, molding can be used to create all those problems as easily as it can be used to solve them. It is a matter of who is wielding that power, and what moral/ethical standards are being applied in the use of molding. And on the other hand if one is molded or "fixed" by their partner, that can also lead to worse problems. If Valyraen molds away or "fixes" my paranoia, my depression, my eating habits or any of my problems instead of supporting me while I fix them, what happens when he isn't there anymore? While we are in this relationship from the long-haul, no one is promised their next tomorrow, certainly not the next twenty years. What happens if the dominant is killed in a wreck, dies young from cancer or the relationship simply fails for reasons unseen? The problems return, only with avengence. I have seen this happen on small-scale, I can only imagine how much worse it would be long-term. For some people molding works. Valyraen and I, however, are firmly against molding away or fixing problems in this manner because we believe that it can do much more harm than good. Only I can change myself. He supports my growth and my conquering of my own issues just I support his. He simply can not fix them for me.

Bobkgin -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 9:27:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Molding can be liberating for the individual molded if, for example, the individual being molded is plagued with self-esteem issues, or substance abuse (I mentioned tobacco and food earlier), or other self-defeating personality traits. On the other hand, molding can be used to create all those problems as easily as it can be used to solve them. It is a matter of who is wielding that power, and what moral/ethical standards are being applied in the use of molding. And on the other hand if one is molded or "fixed" by their partner, that can also lead to worse problems. If Valyraen molds away or "fixes" my paranoia, my depression, my eating habits or any of my problems instead of supporting me while I fix them, what happens when he isn't there anymore? I think I see the confusion. Molding is not something one person does to another. It is something two people do together. No one can be molded if they refuse to cooperate. One way of looking at the molder is as a personal trainer. Weight Watchers and a variety of fitness clubs use the same principle: of having someone monitor a person's progress. The individual is responsible for his/her own progress, but the trainer acts as a sort of conscience, to keep the individual motivated and working towards his/her goals. With my wife, molding was hardly needed. She stopped smoking under my instructions, and lost 40 pounds in the first few years of our relationship. She had never lost weight before me, and had never quit smoking. In what way did my molding her in these areas negatively impact her life? quote: While we are in this relationship from the long-haul, no one is promised their next tomorrow, certainly not the next twenty years. What happens if the dominant is killed in a wreck, dies young from cancer or the relationship simply fails for reasons unseen? The problems return, only with avengence. I have seen this happen on small-scale, I can only imagine how much worse it would be long-term. Hard to comment on anecdotal information like this. It really depends upon how much of the molding is devoted to achieving the goals the submissive has for herself, and how much of the molding was not beneficial. It also depends upon the nature of the break-up, how addicted the individual is to self-defeating behaviour and how much work (and the quality of the work) that went into the molding. quote: For some people molding works. Valyraen and I, however, are firmly against molding away or fixing problems in this manner because we believe that it can do much more harm than good. Only I can change myself. He supports my growth and my conquering of my own issues just I support his. He simply can not fix them for me. I agree. Anyone determined to retain self-defeating behaviour cannot be helped, or molded. As I said, molding requires the cooperation of the one being molded.

AquaticSub -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 10:08:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin I think I see the confusion. Molding is not something one person does to another. It is something two people do together. When one molds clay or any other material, the clay is receiving the action and doing nothing except confirming. Perhaps you are using the wrong word to communicate your idea? quote: Hard to comment on anecdotal information like this. If that is anecdotal, so is the success of you and your wife.

Bobkgin -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 10:31:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin I think I see the confusion. Molding is not something one person does to another. It is something two people do together. When one molds clay or any other material, the clay is receiving the action and doing nothing except confirming. Perhaps you are using the wrong word to communicate your idea? Perhaps. Perhaps I am assuming people will not confuse people with inanimate objects. [;)] And I have heard the phrase "molding young minds" when talking about education. I could use terms like "growth" or "stretching limits" or "learning", but they tend to have positive moral connotations and I do not believe molding is always good (nor always bad). quote: quote: Hard to comment on anecdotal information like this. If that is anecdotal, so is the success of you and your wife. True, but at least I am familiar with the situation involving my wife, whereas I lack sufficient data to comment on your statements. I've provided details whereas you've not provided more than a conclusion.

AquaticSub -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 11:33:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Perhaps I am assuming people will not confuse people with inanimate objects. [;)] And I have heard the phrase "molding young minds" when talking about education. The term is poetic. However, you should also know the phrase "to assume makes an ass of you and me". Be clear. From my point of view what you are talking about is not molding. If you encourage them to quit smoking or lose weight that is helpful, but IMHO they still have to do it for themselves. If you change them into someone else for your pleasure, I would consider that molding and I don't see the point in it. Love someone for who they are or find someone you do love. quote: True, but at least I am familiar with the situation involving my wife, whereas I lack sufficient data to comment on your statements. I've provided details whereas you've not provided more than a conclusion. I am very familiar with the particular situation. However, the story is not mine to tell. Just as I have to trust that you are not lying, you will have to trust that I am not either. The mere providing of details does not evidence make. Any testimonials along this line are anecdotal at best. As we saw from the teacup thread, there are plenty people of people go one way and plenty who go another.

onestandingstill -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 11:54:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: texancutie I I too, have chosen a Master who values me enough to not harm or damage me. His limits have become my limits, so with him I don't really have limits. I love to keep my mind open to new possibilities. I don't have to worry that he will damage me physically or emotionally...and that to me...is really freeing. I can go to deeper levels with him, and experience things that if I was constantly worrying "Will this time be too far for me?", I wouldn't experience the feelings and emotions that I do. This usually takes knowing someone well enough to trust them, and you can't expect someone you just met, or are just scening casually with, to really know when you have been pushed way too far. I guess if you are going to do that though, its up to you, and if you care about yourself and the person you are casually scening with, its up to you to set your limits, and negotiate with them. Otherwise, you never really know if he or she will go too far. And then again, at that point it is also your own fault as well as theirs. If I was out there casually scening with others without him, I would not say I have no limits, but that is me. I can only speak for myself. I like what you had to say here texancutie. I agree to reach the point I'm not even considering limits is key. With my Master I do many things I would not do on my own, and don't do things I would like to do for my Master. In that my only official limit I needed to petition him to own me is I'd not be required to do something I felt is against God IMO & to be able to do for my (grown living elsewhere) kids as I see fit. I'm sure if he asked to cut off my leg I'd not just say No or OK, but that's not the point. People pretending to be Masters who break their toys by maiming them don't count as they are loser wanna be's and not real Masters IMO. REAL owners want you as functional as possible so you're a benefit not a liability. The point is he would not be my Master if I did not know in my heart he has my best interest at heart when it comes to rules, requests of me, and life. Does he push my limits? Hell yes. Do I overcome my limits for him? Hell Yes Will I do his bidding without intentional resistance? Hell Yes But over all..... I have limits & so does he. Some are self imposed, some are physical, some are mental, some are financial, and some are geographical. We all have limits and limitations or we'd be able to be all things to all people right? Over all I'm WILLING to do his will as best as possible for me all the time. That to me is the crux of what people mean by no limits that are in emotionally healthy relationships. suzanne

submittous -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 12:15:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Molding can be liberating for the individual molded if, for example, the individual being molded is plagued with self-esteem issues, or substance abuse (I mentioned tobacco and food earlier), or other self-defeating personality traits. On the other hand, molding can be used to create all those problems as easily as it can be used to solve them. It is a matter of who is wielding that power, and what moral/ethical standards are being applied in the use of molding. And on the other hand if one is molded or "fixed" by their partner, that can also lead to worse problems. If Valyraen molds away or "fixes" my paranoia, my depression, my eating habits or any of my problems instead of supporting me while I fix them, what happens when he isn't there anymore? I think I see the confusion. Molding is not something one person does to another. It is something two people do together. No one can be molded if they refuse to cooperate. One way of looking at the molder is as a personal trainer. Weight Watchers and a variety of fitness clubs use the same principle: of having someone monitor a person's progress. The individual is responsible for his/her own progress, but the trainer acts as a sort of conscience, to keep the individual motivated and working towards his/her goals. With my wife, molding was hardly needed. She stopped smoking under my instructions, and lost 40 pounds in the first few years of our relationship. She had never lost weight before me, and had never quit smoking. In what way did my molding her in these areas negatively impact her life? ... snipped... Nicely said all I would add is molding clay into pottery is not the same as molding a slave to the needs of a master. Clay drys out and sets up no longer being malleable. In real M/s relationships the process of molding is never ending and evolutionary. As the slave changes that changes the master and his or her needs and the act of molding is changed.... on and on. That is why when we start out in M/s and if we do it with honesty and integrity we really don't know where it will lead us. We know the path, but not where it leads until the specific people involved have evolved together and taken the walk. Bill

AquaticSub -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 12:47:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: submittous Nicely said all I would add is molding clay into pottery is not the same as molding a slave to the needs of a master. Clay drys out and sets up no longer being malleable. Add water and it becomes malleable again. Oil clay never dries. quote: In real M/s relationships the process of molding is never ending and evolutionary. As the slave changes that changes the master and his or her needs and the act of molding is changed.... on and on. We disagree on makes a real m/s relationship. quote: That is why when we start out in M/s and if we do it with honesty and integrity we really don't know where it will lead us. We know the path, but not where it leads until the specific people involved have evolved together and taken the walk. Bill Probably it is quite simply a difference in m/s or d/s philosphy. Valyraen shows me and teachs me the way he wants me to do specific things. He supports me as I change the things about myself that need changing, but I also support him as he changes the things that he needs to change. Does that mean that I am molding my owner? Certainly we are growing together. As I said before - I really don't see what this has to do with limits. It strikes me as personal philosphy, much like being Gorean or non-Gorean.

Bobkgin -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 12:59:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Perhaps I am assuming people will not confuse people with inanimate objects. [;)] And I have heard the phrase "molding young minds" when talking about education. The term is poetic. As far as I am concerned this is all about semantics. quote: However, you should also know the phrase "to assume makes an ass of you and me". Be clear. I am not going to worry about those few who confuse people for inanimate objects, Aquatic. Seems to me they have enough problems as it is without me trying to straighten them out over how to interpret "molding" every time I use the word. quote: From my point of view what you are talking about is not molding. If you encourage them to quit smoking or lose weight that is helpful, Semantics. I've said there are many words for it. You are using a word with a positive moral value: "helping". But it is not "helping" if the woman were thin already and losing weight meant becoming bulemic. Same activity, very different results, very different moral values. Molding describes both without assigning a moral value. quote: but IMHO they still have to do it for themselves. They must certainly cooperate with the process of molding for molding to occur. quote: If you change them into someone else for your pleasure, I would consider that molding and I don't see the point in it. Love someone for who they are or find someone you do love. But none of us are who we were, or who we are going to be. None of us changed in a vacuum free of the influence of others. My wife didn't quit smoking because she was eager to quit. She quit because I wanted her to quit and because there were valid health reasons for quitting. She wasn't eager to lose weight either, but did so because of the health reasons I provided. It can easily be said she did what she did not so much because she wanted it but because she knew it would make me happy. And in doing so she changed to please me. quote: True, but at least I am familiar with the situation involving my wife, whereas I lack sufficient data to comment on your statements. I've provided details whereas you've not provided more than a conclusion. I am very familiar with the particular situation. However, the story is not mine to tell. Just as I have to trust that you are not lying, you will have to trust that I am not either. The mere providing of details does not evidence make. Any testimonials along this line are anecdotal at best. As we saw from the teacup thread, there are plenty people of people go one way and plenty who go another.

Bobkgin -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 1:03:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: submittous Nicely said all I would add is molding clay into pottery is not the same as molding a slave to the needs of a master. Clay drys out and sets up no longer being malleable. In real M/s relationships the process of molding is never ending and evolutionary. As the slave changes that changes the master and his or her needs and the act of molding is changed.... on and on. That is why when we start out in M/s and if we do it with honesty and integrity we really don't know where it will lead us. We know the path, but not where it leads until the specific people involved have evolved together and taken the walk. Bill So true. [:)] And may I point out that potters keep their clay malleable by regularly applying water till they're done. I suppose if we were to use that as a metaphor we'd be saying something like "hose your slave down on a regular basis"? [:D]

AquaticSub -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 1:07:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin As far as I am concerned this is all about semantics. I tend to view semantics as being important, particularly in an online medium. quote: I am not going to worry about those few who confuse people for inanimate objects, Aquatic. Seems to me they have enough problems as it is without me trying to straighten them out over how to interpret "molding" every time I use the word. I think the word is unclear and that means I have issues? There is a school of thought that if the correct message did not get across, the fault is with the speaker, not the listener. That is what this all boils down to - schools of thought. Yours is no better than mine and mine is no better than yours.

Bobkgin -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 1:17:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Probably it is quite simply a difference in m/s or d/s philosphy. Valyraen shows me and teachs me the way he wants me to do specific things. He supports me as I change the things about myself that need changing, but I also support him as he changes the things that he needs to change. Does that mean that I am molding my owner? Either that or you are part of the process of him molding himself. quote: As I said before - I really don't see what this has to do with limits. It strikes me as personal philosphy, much like being Gorean or non-Gorean. Just look at the title of the thread: "... how far would you go?" As you've demonstrated: personality modification is quite a bit further than most people are willing to go.

AquaticSub -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 1:23:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Probably it is quite simply a difference in m/s or d/s philosphy. Valyraen shows me and teachs me the way he wants me to do specific things. He supports me as I change the things about myself that need changing, but I also support him as he changes the things that he needs to change. Does that mean that I am molding my owner? Either that or you are part of the process of him molding himself. Then how does it have anything to do with the power dynamic? If it isn't him molding me for his pleasure, if it is us molding each other and growing together what about it is d/s? Sounds very much like what healthy vanilla (gasp [;)]) couples do.

Bobkgin -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 1:25:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin As far as I am concerned this is all about semantics. I tend to view semantics as being important, particularly in an online medium. quote: I am not going to worry about those few who confuse people for inanimate objects, Aquatic. Seems to me they have enough problems as it is without me trying to straighten them out over how to interpret "molding" every time I use the word. I think the word is unclear and that means I have issues? There is a school of thought that if the correct message did not get across, the fault is with the speaker, not the listener. I was unaware that a speaker is at fault if his/her audience is illiterate. My own school of thought on this is that a speaker defines his audience in the manner in which he expresses himself. quote: That is what this all boils down to - schools of thought. Yours is no better than mine and mine is no better than yours. Mine is better for me, Aquatic. I assume yours is better for you. To me, this was never about judging between the two. It was just two people talking about their own beliefs.

Bobkgin -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 1:31:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Probably it is quite simply a difference in m/s or d/s philosphy. Valyraen shows me and teachs me the way he wants me to do specific things. He supports me as I change the things about myself that need changing, but I also support him as he changes the things that he needs to change. Does that mean that I am molding my owner? Either that or you are part of the process of him molding himself. Then how does it have anything to do with the power dynamic? If it isn't him molding me for his pleasure, if it is us molding each other and growing together what about it is d/s? Sounds very much like what healthy vanilla (gasp [;)]) couples do. I think you're finally catching on [:)] Molding is not exclusively bdsm. It is something that can happen in any type of relationship (think of parents and teachers raising kids). However, molding within a bdsm relationship does have additional tools and processes available to it that a normal vanilla relationship would lack. [;)] Molding can also be deleterious, regardless of the type of relationship (think of the low self esteem of battered wives). And again, within the context of a bdsm relationship, there are more tools and processes available for use.

AquaticSub -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 2:21:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin I was unaware that a speaker is at fault if his/her audience is illiterate. My own school of thought on this is that a speaker defines his audience in the manner in which he expresses himself. Illiterate does mean that your audience thinks you expressed yourself unclearly. If I were illiterate I would be unable to communicate via collarme at all.

AquaticSub -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 2:25:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: Then how does it have anything to do with the power dynamic? If it isn't him molding me for his pleasure, if it is us molding each other and growing together what about it is d/s? Sounds very much like what healthy vanilla (gasp [;)]) couples do. I think you're finally catching on [:)] Molding is not exclusively bdsm. It is something that can happen in any type of relationship (think of parents and teachers raising kids). However, molding within a bdsm relationship does have additional tools and processes available to it that a normal vanilla relationship would lack. [;)] Molding can also be deleterious, regardless of the type of relationship (think of the low self esteem of battered wives). And again, within the context of a bdsm relationship, there are more tools and processes available for use. Again, Bob, I simply think the phrase molding is not the best for the situation you are talking about. This is not a matter of me catching on as I have been fully aware from the start of the growing that couples do in healthy relationships. If this influencing is not directly related to BDSM than I simply don't see it as being a limit/no limit issue. If I am influencing him as much as he influences me, than I don't see it as having anything do with the power dynamic.

sadisticmaster11 -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 2:26:33 PM)
a slave should have no limits.

Bobkgin -> RE: No Limits: How far would you go? (9/26/2007 2:36:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin I was unaware that a speaker is at fault if his/her audience is illiterate. My own school of thought on this is that a speaker defines his audience in the manner in which he expresses himself. Illiterate does mean that your audience thinks you expressed yourself unclearly. If I were illiterate I would be unable to communicate via collarme at all. There are other kinds of audiences, Aquatic. I wasn't limiting myself to this one.

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