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Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 10:11:34 AM   
TreasureKY


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“Submission is a gift”

In my opinion, it’s a complex idea wrapped in an oversimplified and often misunderstood statement.  As it lends itself to misinterpretation, it’s a statement I don’t find useful so it’s one I personally avoid, but I do understand the sentiment behind it… or so I believe.

So what is really meant by “my submission is a gift”?

I think you first have to examine what is commonly accepted as the concept of “gift”.  The dictionary gives us several definitions…

1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.

2. the act of giving.

3. something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned.

4. a special ability or capacity; natural endowment; talent.

Does any one of those definitions represent what people mean when they say submission is a gift?

I don’t believe so… not in its entirety.

Starting with the use of “gift” as meaning the act of giving… I think that’s pretty straight forward.  I believe that a lot of submissives wish to convey that they will give their submission to the right dominant, meaning they will consciously grant authority.  Can submission be gained in other ways?  Yes, and a little further on in this post I’ll touch on those.

I wouldn’t say that all submission is a talent, special ability, or natural endowment, but can just anyone be submissive?  I think that depends more upon whether you consider it an act or a state of being.

Generally speaking, everyone performs submissive acts at one time or another during their life.  Simply obeying traffic lights can be a submissive act if you are allowing someone to have authority over your actions.  What the motivation and response is behind those submissive acts are what I believe ultimately defines whether your submission is merely an act, or if it is your state of being.  Given freely or coerced makes the difference here.

Now “given freely” is a complex idea in itself.  When I say freely, I’m not talking about agreement.  You may accept traffic lights because you feel they are an appropriate requirement for safety and you agree that they should exist.  In this case you aren’t submitting to the government’s authority, but rather simply acting on your own belief that just so happens to coincide with what the government intends to enforce upon others who aren’t so willing.

It isn’t ambivalence, either… simply going along because it doesn’t really matter to you one way or another.  You may comply with a traffic light simply because it’s there and you don’t really care because it isn’t important enough to adversely affect you.

Compliance that is freely given comes from one who, either consciously or unconsciously, has deferred authority.  

Ever been stopped at a traffic light in a deserted area in the middle of the night and asked yourself why you were just sitting there?

lol… I’m one of the fools who will just sit there.  I might contemplate running the light… I might even be tempted, but even if I know without doubt there is no one to catch me, I’ll wait until the light turns green.

Anyway, this is why I believe so many submissives make a point of saying that they are submissive… not just behaving in a submissive manner.  They are trying to clarify that they are ones who, once authority is granted, submit to that authority rather than just perform submissive acts.  It’s a way of highlighting that their submission is a natural endowment and therefore adding value.

Of course, value is assigned not only by the giver, but by the recipient.  Unfortunately, that police officer that you graciously accepted a ticket from isn’t likely to think much of your submission… other than to perhaps be grateful for the lack of hassle.  However, I think it’s safe to say that most submissives desire that their submission be considered valuable.

This brings us to what I believe trips people up so much… the idea that a gift is generally given voluntarily without it having been earned.

My submission to FirmhandKY can’t really be a gift if I’m expecting him to earn it… right?

I touch on this a bit in my profile when I said, “It [my submission] is inspired when a man proves though his words and actions that he is worthy of my deferral…”  Right there I’m saying that he does have to earn my submission.  However, at the time I wrote that I hadn’t really solidified in my mind what I was thinking… but I knew where I was going with it. 

I went on to further say, “like trust, it is earned and can be broken just the same.”  After considering it more, what I wasn’t clear on was that his words and actions earned him my admiration and affection.  Those things gave him value to me and because of that value, I would be inspired to submit to him.

So... has he earned my submission?

I suppose, technically, he has… by virtue of the love and trust that he has earned.  In my eyes he became worthy of receipt.  I will point out that it was a conscious decision to allow him to have authority over me.  I have control over my nature and don’t submit to everyone that I love or trust.

I think, when all is said and done, what many submissives are trying to convey by saying their submission is a gift, is that their submission is valuable and is voluntarily given to those they specifically deem worthy of receiving it.

Of course, I don’t expect my diatribe to be the end of this particular subject. 

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 9/16/2007 10:13:52 AM >
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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 10:27:46 AM   
Bobkgin


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That was very well said, Treasure.



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Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 10:46:15 AM   
FullCircle


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I thought a book token was the gift that kept on giving?

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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 10:47:35 AM   
meatcleaver


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The whole implication of the idea of submission being a gift is that the sub gives and the dom takes. I had a thing with one woman who thought like that but I would never have another. Women who think like that need therapy or just get out of living in the middleages and start living in the 21st century.

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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 10:54:43 AM   
Bobkgin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The whole implication of the idea of submission being a gift is that the sub gives and the dom takes.


I disagree.

I've always said I do not take, but only receive that which is given me.

I prefer it that way because whatever is given represents what my partner believes I deserve from her.

To take it (or try to take it) would deny her the opportunity to give what her heart inspires her to give.

If her heart isn't in the giving, I wouldn't value whatever I took.

That's why every day felt like Christmas

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 11:02:37 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
What the motivation and response is behind those submissive acts are what I believe ultimately defines whether your submission is merely an act, or if it is your state of being. 


Hi Treasure,

That was really well thought out and well written :)

What struck me was the line I quoted above.  Submitting as I do to my Master is being true to myself.  It is not a gift, not some great accomplishment, not something I packaged up all pretty in a bow and said, "Here, happy birthday!"  It is who I am.  He helped me to find my true nature, and helped me to develop it into something I find great fulfillment in. 

I wouldn't say I give and he takes.  I think he gives as much as I do, only differently.  The most important thing he gave me was a place to express myself as I need to express myself (verbally, physically, submissively).  Nor would I say he "earned" my submission.  I met him, his power consumed me, and my natural response was to submit to him.  And trust me, I tried not to!  The pull that I felt scared the hell out of me!  But alas, it couldn't be helped.

So no, I wouldn't say what I give him is a gift.  I know he appreciates and values my submission, and I know he loves me for it.  But I think we compliment each other, by being true to ourselves together, and in doing so, by fitting together so wonderfully.

Maybe others feel their submission is a gift, and if so, that is their right.  But mine isn't.

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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 11:04:39 AM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The whole implication of the idea of submission being a gift is that the sub gives and the dom takes.


Only if you don't see domination as a gift as well. We give and take from each other.

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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 11:12:03 AM   
Stephann


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Hi Treasure,

In the gift of submission debates, I don't think I've ever seen anyone state that submission had no value.  I don't think anyone is suggesting that it shouldn't have value to the submissive.  I think the crux, is rooted in this question:  Should submission have intrinsic value to a dominant?

I don't want a woman's submission, until I know I want that woman.  Thus, a perfect stranger's submission is worthless to me.  This isn't to say that the woman is worthless; only that I don't value her enough in my life, to desire her submission.  I find submissives who demand that I assign value to their submission, aren't interested in allowing me to determine it's value for myself.  It's the D/s version of the girl who tells me on a first date what an AWSOME girlfriend she makes, wouldn't I agree?  I answer such nonsense with a nod of the head, moments before I signal the waiter for the check.

A woman I care about, has enormous value to me.  That's value that I assign it for myself; I don't permit her to determine how precious she is to me, for me.  It's very much a 'walk the walk' concept.  In refusing to permit her to assert her value to me, it introduces an element to the power dynamic that permits her to embrace the value she has, for herself.  I cease to be her mirror, and become her owner, so that we may both enjoy what we have to offer each other.

Regards,

Stephan


< Message edited by Stephann -- 9/16/2007 11:16:02 AM >


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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 11:15:00 AM   
Stephann


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

I've always said I do not take, but only receive that which is given me.



I've heard this statement represents a 'Service Top.'  Thoughts anyone?


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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 11:15:35 AM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The whole implication of the idea of submission being a gift is that the sub gives and the dom takes.


I disagree.

I've always said I do not take, but only receive that which is given me.

I prefer it that way because whatever is given represents what my partner believes I deserve from her.

To take it (or try to take it) would deny her the opportunity to give what her heart inspires her to give.

If her heart isn't in the giving, I wouldn't value whatever I took.

That's why every day felt like Christmas


So you just wait around till she offers to blow you or cook you dinner?  

The coroner shows up....And completes the autopsy on Bob's lifeless corpse...

Cause of death: Sub's lack of inspiration to prepare a meal.

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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 11:23:27 AM   
earthycouple


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I was once in a relationship (very short term, as you'll soon enough see) and every single time I expected something of this sub that he didn't like he said "my submission is a gift and I don't have to do that."  He'd get angry and yell and tell me that since it was his perrogative to give and take what he wanted that he was a gift he was bestowing upon me he could do what he damn well pleased.

so um yeah. no.

If it is a gift  no takesees backsees damn it *S*  (ok my lil dose of bad humor at the end)





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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 11:35:43 AM   
Stephann


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D,

Are you sure it ws a man?  Sounds like the same woman who keeps getting surgery and comes back to haunt me

This is the heart and soul of why I don't play the "submission is a gift" game.  To boot, I make it quite clear that a slave 'owns' nothing in my relationships.  A slave would then have to own that gift in the first place, to give it to me.  Instead, it's already mine by virtue of the nature of our Master/slave relationship.

Stephan


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"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 12:17:13 PM   
julietsierra


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When I first started going to things in the bdsm community, I was new to the lifestyle itself. I also bought heavily into the "gift of submission" idea. And what I find interesting in retrospect is that that whole "gift" idea is precisely what kept my numbers of liasons down. I kept thinking "if this is a gift and a gift is supposed to be somehow special, just how special is something that every guy in the joint has had, and what value is there in giving it if everyone and their brother has already had it? Kind of like giving half empty bottles of cologne or something." It kept me selective, and THAT perhaps is the best rationale for the ad nauseum issues of the "gift of submission."

But do I believe submission is a gift? I've come to realize that submissive is what I am - who I am even. It is not a thing I can give away. It's what I do. It fulfills me, makes me feel "right" with the world. But I don't necessarily see it as a gift, any more than I see domination as a gift either. My Master would be who and what he is with or without me. He is a dominant when I'm next to him and he's a dominant when we're apart, so it's not that he's giving me his dominance as a gift or anything like that. Where would I put it if he did?

On the other hand, each and every single day, I'm thankful that he chose me of all the people he could have chosen. But a gift? I don't know about that. It kind of runs in conflict with my whole idea of selfishness, which, coincidentally, I find more valid than gifting.

juliet

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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 1:35:08 PM   
TreasureKY


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lol... Please note that at the beginning of my op, I state, "In my opinion, it’s a complex idea wrapped in an oversimplified and often misunderstood statement.  As it lends itself to misinterpretation, it’s a statement I don’t find useful so it’s one I personally avoid, but I do understand the sentiment behind it… or so I believe." 

Just so everyone understands that I'm not arguing in favor. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The whole implication of the idea of submission being a gift is that the sub gives and the dom takes.


What a narrow world you must live in that you read my op and come away with only "the sub gives and the dom takes".  Of course, we are talking about submission here... if in your opinion the dom should give submission, too, then who am I to criticise. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I think the crux, is rooted in this question:  Should submission have intrinsic value to a dominant?

I don't want a woman's submission, until I know I want that woman.  Thus, a perfect stranger's submission is worthless to me. 


I agree and the same would hold true from my perspective.  I don't want a man's domination until I know that I want the man.   A perfect stranger's domination is worthless to me. 

I truly believe that much of this "submission is a gift" idea came about in response to those who might have erroneously believed that a submissive should submit to all.  To be honest, dominants would have every reason to say similar... that dominance is a gift. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthycouple

... every single time I expected something of this sub that he didn't like he said "my submission is a gift and I don't have to do that."


It would seem to me that your former sub never really "gifted" you with any level of his submission to begin with.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

... To boot, I make it quite clear that a slave 'owns' nothing in my relationships.  A slave would then have to own that gift in the first place, to give it to me.  Instead, it's already mine by virtue of the nature of our Master/slave relationship.


I understand what you're saying here, Stephann, but your logic is circuitous.  A slave would indeed own her submission in the first place.  She would have to "gift" it to you before you could have a Master/slave relationship.

I would ask you if you are one who believes that your slave never has the right to take back her submission should she lose all faith and trust in you?



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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 1:42:22 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
I think, when all is said and done, what many submissives are trying to convey by saying their submission is a gift, is that their submission is valuable and is voluntarily given to those they specifically deem worthy of receiving it.


In reading this thread, I wonder if some people fail to consider the mindset of those who give gifts, as well as those who receive them.

If there is a clear anticipation of specific reciprocations, is it giving or is it barter?  Similarly, can such a dynamic be truly deemed D/s or M/s (or Power Exchange, more broadly)?

In my mind, viewing submission (and conversely, dominance) as a gift given and received facilitates setting up the power exchange dynamic.  It is the motif that makes the notion of "consensual slavery" feasible.


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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 1:45:12 PM   
earthycouple


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Treasure..touche.

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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 3:52:00 PM   
Bobkgin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The whole implication of the idea of submission being a gift is that the sub gives and the dom takes.


I disagree.

I've always said I do not take, but only receive that which is given me.

I prefer it that way because whatever is given represents what my partner believes I deserve from her.

To take it (or try to take it) would deny her the opportunity to give what her heart inspires her to give.

If her heart isn't in the giving, I wouldn't value whatever I took.

That's why every day felt like Christmas


So you just wait around till she offers to blow you or cook you dinner?  



Something like that.

It is a way of measuring her interest (or lack thereof), which is an indirect way of measuring how much I am inspiring her (or not).

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 3:57:16 PM   
SirCache


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When I say that I believe submission is a gift, it is perhaps a misnomer on my part.  Being submissive is who some people are.  That they extend to me the entirety and depth of that submission--that is the gift.

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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 4:41:40 PM   
breatheasone


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I don't think its a gift either...I mean when I give a gift I don't expect anything in return...not the case with the submission i offer my Master. After all ALL relationships are give AND take.

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RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving - 9/16/2007 4:49:10 PM   
Bobkgin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

I don't think its a gift either...I mean when I give a gift I don't expect anything in return...not the case with the submission i offer my Master. After all ALL relationships are give AND take.


How many gifts do you give strangers for no reason whatsoever, and how many gifts do you give to friends, family, loved ones who have already given you their friendship, love, etc?

Gifts can be given in recognition of past, meritorious service, as a token of respect, esteem, friendship and love.

And most people find it easier to give gifts to people with whom they expect (and hope) to continue sharing a good relationship.


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to breatheasone)
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