RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig

RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 11:28:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Well a BDSM club is very different than a public restroom in an airport. Would your hypotheticall Domme, be hitting the person without getting consent? If so it would be a crime, and any BDSM club would put a stop to it right away, or it should be shut down. Now does the ACLU regualrly go to bat for public bathroom sex cases? or Just when a high profile Republican is involved? If they do not get involved in every case like this, it shows that thier reason is political, and has nothing to do with Constitutional niceities. Let me try again to make this clear. Larry Craig was not caught engaging in a sexual act in a public restroom, which is a crime no doubt about it. What he was caught doing was employing symbols that he was interested in such an encounter and wished to know if the man next to him was similiarly inclined. The cop showed him his badge and arrested him at that point. Now take our hypothetical Domme, she sees a handsome man hanging around the bdsm club and approaches him. He is dressed in a manner indicating a sub leaning, chest harness, collar etc. So after a little banter and possibly a frank discussion of the Domme's desires he shows her his badge and arrests her on the spot for attempted assault and battery. Would we all be a lot more eager to see this hypothetical Domme's rights protected? Even though by the same stretch that allows the cop in Minneapolis to arrest Craig for flirting is essentially exactly what gets the Domme in trouble?

SusanofO -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 11:52:40 AM)
luckydog1 and Owner59: Okay, point taken. DomKen: Yes. I agree, definitely. - Susan

luckydog1 -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 12:00:50 PM)
I see a huge difference in the location, a public bathroom in an airport vs a ID checked, over 18/21 club, where such activity is openly endoressed, and ongoingly occuring. It is illegal to solicit public sex in a public place, a sex club is not a public place, an 8 yr old can not wander in. It is not illegal to ask to have kink with a person in a kink club, unless kink clubs are illegal in your state/city( I am assuming it is a legal club in your example). If your hypothetical offers the cop cash to play it might be a crime. Otherwise there is no basis of an assualt batterry charge. If it is an illegal club the cops could raid it, which would have nothiong to do with your example either. If enough men need this let them rent a spot in the airport and do it in private, have a bath house or something. The Minneappolis airport is huge.

DomKen -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 12:07:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 It is not illegal to ask to have kink with a person in a kink club, unless kink clubs are illegal in your state/city( I am assuming it is a legal club in your example). Unless the law has changed somewhere quite recently no one can give consent to battery which makes virtually all forms of S&M technically illegal. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I honestly thought we all knew that.

SusanofO -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 12:08:49 PM)
I wouldn't want my aging uncle running into a guy crusing for sex in a public airport bathroom, either. But, in large, I think this isn't exactly on my list of "high crimes" either. Heck, if these cops are this great at sniffing out hardened criminals, let's send them over to Pakistan, to hunt for Osama Bin Laden, IMO. [;)] - Susan

Alumbrado -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 12:08:53 PM)
The Stonewall Airport Lounge?

luckydog1 -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 12:15:04 PM)
It is technically illegal, yet in your hypothetical nothing has occured. It is legal to talk about, which is what your hypothetical described. BDSM clubs do operate openly in many cities. Heck, there are even websites that allow people to meet, discuss BDSM, and proposition each other. Would you like me to point one out to you? When was the last time anyone was prosecuted for consensual BDSM in private. I did already say that a club could be raided, but that is not the example you gave. Soliciting sex in a public place is a specific crime, even if you use a code.

Alumbrado -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 12:28:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 It is not illegal to ask to have kink with a person in a kink club, unless kink clubs are illegal in your state/city( I am assuming it is a legal club in your example). Unless the law has changed somewhere quite recently no one can give consent to battery which makes virtually all forms of S&M technically illegal. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I honestly thought we all knew that. Noting that there are cases where consent wasn't an absolute barrier to prosecution, is not the same as saying that 'no one can give consent to battery'. That is such an overstatement that it becomes simply not true. People give consent every day, whether boxers, or actors, or anyone engaged in a number of activities that involve harmful physical contact.

Level -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 3:47:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Heck, if these cops are this great at sniffing out hardened criminals, let's send them over to Pakistan, to hunt for Osama Bin Laden, IMO. [;)] - Susan Well, this case certainly featured a "hardened" criminal........... [:D]

Slavehandsome -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 3:56:57 PM)
Can you imagine what the media circus would have been had this been Bill Clinton? I'm curious too, what Sen. Craig has said about "card carrying members of the ACLU" throughout his stellar career? One other thing-does anybody have a description of what Thanksgiving and Christmas are going to be like at their dinner table.

Owner59 -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 4:59:08 PM)
The basic thinking on the ACLU`s part,is that what Craig did,could have been done in a bar ,club,any type of singles place,without getting into trouble. Because it was a restroom,shouldn`t matter,because it`s all consenting adults. I`m pretty sure that`s there position.I think they see an intrapment situation. The charge that was dropped,where Craig was peeping,kinda makes the "innocent, inadvertent gesturing ,seem a bit more lude. If Craig gets a new trail,he will have to face the peeping-tom charge,where he spied into the gap of the stall door,trying to make eye contact for over a minute.

luckydog1 -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 6:06:43 PM)
But a restroom is not all consenting adults owner 59.

farglebargle -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 6:10:46 PM)
If the make cruising for gay sex in bathrooms legal, then where will the "Rush" for "Straight" Republicans come from? It's attractive to people like Craig *BECAUSE* it's illicit. ( Hey, Larry, NEXT TIME, try Craigslist.... )

DomKen -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 8:40:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 It is technically illegal, yet in your hypothetical nothing has occured. It is legal to talk about, which is what your hypothetical described. BDSM clubs do operate openly in many cities. Heck, there are even websites that allow people to meet, discuss BDSM, and proposition each other. Would you like me to point one out to you? When was the last time anyone was prosecuted for consensual BDSM in private. I did already say that a club could be raided, but that is not the example you gave. AIUI that it is done or arranged in a private club is immaterial. Trying to arrange a situation where you can inflict pain on a willing participant is still a crime and is not prosecuted primarily due to the police simply having better things to do. quote: Soliciting sex in a public place is a specific crime, even if you use a code. It is? There's a bar down on the corner chock full of college students breaking this law. Actually AIUI it is against the law to have sex in a public place but nothing bars the not for profit soliciting of sex in a public place. To Alumbrado, I'm sorry I just used the rather common short hand used in most discussions on this matter. Of course you are correct, consent is not an absolute barrier to prosecution but I'm not a lawyer and would never attempt to make clear the subtleties of the law and find it smply easier to make it clear that having a partners consent won't stop the cops or prosecutors if you come to their attention.

Alumbrado -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 9:26:43 PM)
Stacks of hundred dollar bills work pretty well in some cases, or so I hear...[;)]

Sinergy -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 10:37:14 PM)
I think what the ACLU is laudable. They are protecting the constitutionally protected right of people to tap their feet while pinching a loaf in the stalls at the airport. Frankly, I am having trouble understanding what the rest of you are whining about. Sinergy

luckydog1 -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/18/2007 11:30:50 PM)
Dom, when it comes down to it, these are state laws, and vary from place to place. In my state we have a constitutional right to privacy, so de facto anything we do in private can't be found out and prosecuted, unless our rights are violated. Alaska has a very strong right to privacy. Public bathrooms are not private. I guess I should have been more specific. Soliciting in the legal sense (as in this case) means trying to pay to get sex. Doesn't it? If there is a hooker in the bar down the street banging guys in the bathroom, they are indeed brakeing all kinds of laws. If the college students starting fucking in the bathroom of the corner bar on a regular basis, I bet the law would get involved pretty quick also. Back to your hypothetical, if the police wanted to raid the SM club they could. but they would not need to have a fake sub talk to a cop. AIUI it is perfectly legal to talk about sex and BDSM, even if it is illegal to actually do it(when was hte last arrest of a couple for private consensual BDSM?). In your case nothing but talk had been done. If it were in a club there would most likely be several scenes going at once, and the cop could simply start arresting people. It really doesn't happen very often (ever?) Trying to pick up a hooker to have sex with in a public place AIUI violates several laws, and I am fine with that. Legal brothels, Yes all for it---- hookers in public restrooms, no way. But my real point, the one I would like to discuss, is wether the ACLU comes to the defense of all public toilet prostitutes, or just this case when it has a nice political edge to it?

DomKen -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/19/2007 10:40:38 PM)
I don't know whether this was a sting where the cop was posing as a male prostitute or he was just supposed to be a guy hanging around a toilet looking for a bj. However since criminal solicitation is not the charge I have to assume that there was no reason to suspect Craig intended to pay. So failing that evidence what we have is the claim by the cops that the signals used by Craig were intended to convey the intention of having sex immediately in the toilet. What the ACLU is arguing that the cops don't have enough evidence to decide that. I personally think they're wrong on this one but so what? They're the lawyers and they looked over the case and decided it was worth getting involved in and believe me from my talks with various ACLU lawyers and staff over the years they fully get the irony of coming to the aid of fascists, right wingers of various stripes and others who would shut them down if they could. However the organization is strictly about protecting all americans constitutional freedoms and if that means defending NAMBLA or the KKK that doesn't matter so much as making sure the door isn't opened to any erosion of our rights.

SimplyMichael -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/19/2007 11:00:24 PM)
quote: Unless the law has changed somewhere quite recently no one can give consent to battery which makes virtually all forms of S&M technically illegal. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I honestly thought we all knew that. Ken, I know you mean well but it is a myth that BDSM is considered the same as battery. In most states, certainly in California, there is EXTENSIVE case law regarding pro-doms being charged with prostitution for doinb BDSM without sex. They can't prosecute pro-doms for sex and then turn around and convict someone else for the same act as abuse. Besides, what is the difference between any contact sport, especially boxing and wrestling with "abuse" or BDSM? People get punched, kicked, hurt, etc. Nope, BDSM is sex in the eyes of the law almost everywhere.

DomKen -> RE: ACLU backing Senator Larry Craig (9/19/2007 11:47:57 PM)
A quick look around the web finds several convictions for S&M but no appelate cases where those prosecutions were overturned so... An old one http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0017-811X(196804)81%3A6%3C1339%3AAABCCO%3E2.0.CO%3B2-A A very recent one, although it appears the prosecution claimed consent had been retracted. http://www.newsday.com/services/newspaper/printedition/saturday/news/ny-nysent085364801sep08,0,7280093.story This site contains a series of capsule descriptions of pertinent cases: http://www.csun.edu/~hfspc002/SMLaw.html

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