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Beyond Understanding - 7/18/2005 2:03:39 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		This isn't going to make sense to very many people, but for those that do understand, I would really like to hear any response you might have.

Almost every email or conversation eventually comes to the question of the day ... what makes you interested in this, what do you hope to get out of this? What are you looking for here? That's a hard question to even understand, much less answer.

Sometimes people are like broken glass scattered on the floor where others will step. When the glass drops on the floor and shatters, it never asked to be dropped, never asked to be broken. It takes no delight when the bits cut other people, but neither does it feel any remorse.

Some look at total power exchange and wonder if its real, or just a nice way of cloaking a search for abuse, that being the only sort or relationship some people understand. If you grow up with abuse in heavy doses, can that really be the only sort of love and affection that gets through to you. Are some minds just so suspicious that they can't seem to get past the thought that if someone doesn't care enough about you to beat the crap out of you ... they will eventually just leave you.

This is strange thinking, perhaps even sick ... but for some people those feelings are so real, and they will not go away. The represent an urge you cannot fight and a battle you will never win. You can deal with the pain of abuse, but cannot deal with the emptiness of feeling unwanted, so unwanted that someone will not even take the time to abuse you. That feeling defeats you.

And yet, there will never be enough pain to feel pleasure, and never enough hurt to make you feel any worth.

It seems beyond understanding.

caitlyn

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 7/18/2005 2:06:49 PM >
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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/18/2005 2:13:16 PM   
Gemeni


Posts: 255
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline 		This is why I tend to look for emotional health in a person.

I'm really not one who lusts for total power over another individual. I'm more of a team player. So I'll look for the basic primal things,yes. But I also want to see how well a woman will be able to cooperate in a life venture. And I have found that "wounded birds" do very poorly at this. It's difficult to fly and keep up with me if all you want to do is drag along a wing that remains broken by your own desire.

Now this may sound callous to say,but I have tried to be a "healer' to more than one of these in the past. It never pans out-and when I was finally forced to release this sort of girl..I became the abuser in her eyes. It's not a great feeling to have to live with this after the fact.

All I can say to the "victims" out there is this.

If you think you are broken-seek therapy. Dominants are really not qualified-unless they have a phd in it.

Don't expect one to "fix' you-only you can do that.

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/18/2005 6:51:06 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		[b]Different people come to the lifestyle for different reasons, and not all those reasons are healthy. Some find justification for being an abuser; some for being a victim. Some may be punishing themselves for a real or perceived deficiency or past indiscretion. Some may find that any attention, even "bad" attention, is preferable to no attention at all. Some may grow up in abusive households and confuse nonconsensual physical battery with acceptable (even desirable?) relational dynamics.

No one can know the motivations of any specific individual that causes them to identify with the lifestyle. Suffice to say that, like society as a whole, our lifestyle has its share of people in need of professional help (of one variety or another).

If it isn't gratifying, if it doesn't make you feel "good" (gotta love those relative terms), if it doesn't help fulfill you... it should be good reason to question whether WIITWD is a healthy choice in your life.

John

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/18/2005 7:15:07 PM   
stormsfate


Posts: 849
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Some look at total power exchange and wonder if its real, or just a nice way of cloaking a search for abuse, that being the only sort or relationship some people understand.


I may have misunderstood this, but in relation to your entire post, I don't think so. If I did, please do clarify if you don't mind. I'm not getting where you are seeing total power exchange as abusive or even one where s&m is necessarily involved. In my experience, TPE relationships tend to be more psychological than physical. S&m may or may not be involved, but the mental aspects are more often the draw in my experience.

In relation to the rest of your post, and what I think was your point about needing something, even if it is someone caring enough to beat you, this is also classic. If you have studied psychology at all (or if you are a parent), you have probably run across a child misbehaving so they will gain attention. From their perspective, any kind of attention will fulfill a need, even if its "bad attention" ...i.e. punishment.

If I were a person who was feeling in the manner you described, I would work on getting myself mentally and emotionally healthy before seeking any type of relationship.



best regards,
fate

_____________________________

Vision? What do you know about MY vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions and the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you! Now ask yourself, are you really ready to see that vision? [/size

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/18/2005 7:18:32 PM   
kyakitten


Posts: 145
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline 		caitlyn,

People who are broken are not doomed to remain in shards on the floor. With effort, they can create something whole again. That whole may even end up stronger than the "unbroken" people in the world - because, let's face it, none of us get through life without nicks and cracks, and the rebuilt glass is held together with stronger stuff. But taking the necessary steps to repair the glass is vital. Fixing the glass is what therapy, and journaling, and talking with friends you know and trust, and medications if necessary, are for.

BDSM as a way of reaffirming one's life in shards is counterproductive, because re-living the fracture in one's relationships cannot heal it. When BDSM is worth doing is when it is a choice - when you can say, I can love any way I want, and this is the one I choose. If someone feels condemned to BDSM, then I'd encourage them to spend a time working on their self-esteem and self-confidence. Those things CAN improve, even totally turn around, 100% guaranteed. It's not easy, but it is worth it. And the person in question deserves that victory, because there is no way that their vision is clear if they see themselves as worthy of only abuse.

< Message edited by kyakitten -- 10/5/2005 9:24:24 PM >

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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/18/2005 8:44:10 PM   
slavedesires


Posts: 669
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn


Sometimes people are like broken glass scattered on the floor where others will step. When the glass drops on the floor and shatters, it never asked to be dropped, never asked to be broken. It takes no delight when the bits cut other people, but neither does it feel any remorse.

caitlyn


A loving hand, tender, full of compassion, the tears falling on the hand, reaches down and picks up every piece of glass. Carefully reforming the glass, figuring out its original shape, the hands place the pieces back together. The hand sets the glass upon a mantle, stands back and admires its beauty. The glass not knowing what the hand sees in it, wonders, wtf? The glass looks about the room from its lofty perch and sees a very beautiful glass across the room and sighs softly as a tear falls..."i wish i was that glass." The hand heard the plea, came over and gently lovingly, kindly, tenderly picked the glass up and walked toward the mirror.

You have my entire response on the other side caitlyn.

~~Shy

_____________________________

i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/19/2005 10:34:54 AM   
softandshy


Posts: 297
Joined: 5/10/2005
Status: offline 		Broken need remain broken, caitlyn, only until it is mended. i chose to do my healing before looking for any sort of relationship. It is something i would recommend doing. It has given me strength to chose a partner in a way that means i won't be replicating any sort of abuse, i won't be damaging myself again (even when it is tempting at times) unless it's by some fluke of fate (we do take the same chances with this as in any relationship). i know what to watch for now, for me, to choose a healthy relationship. Also, it's more fair to the partner, whether he or she is Dominant or anything else. That said, there are always going to be some chinks left where the glass went astray. Waiting until the healing is advanced allows me to see where those chinks are. It means that i can share them with a potential partner, see if he or she will be sensitive to those issues. i can watch out for them myself. It means we're both better prepared for any "surprises" as well.

*edited to add* If the feelings are genuinely not tied into a need for abuse, they'll still be present after the healing too. :)

< Message edited by softandshy -- 7/19/2005 10:39:51 AM >

_____________________________

Happy "Swamp Thing"

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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/19/2005 11:29:23 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		What's all this emphasis on "broken"? Broken can easily be confused with "different", or outside the norm. Broken, depending on how you define it, may simply mean another form of being.

We are what we are. To the degree that we are able, we change what we do not like about ourselves (and we ALL have things we either have changed, or desire to change, about ourselves).

The lifestyle does not descend upon us like the Holy Spirit, imbuing us with qualities we do not possess. A Master does not (cannot) make us like what we do not like, or change us into something we are not. We are not all some erotic novel, waiting for the storybook ending to be written.

We're just human... faults and all. And this lifestyle has its limits.

John


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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/19/2005 11:49:24 AM   
Gemeni


Posts: 255
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline 		Exactly my sentiments John.

I have been involved for this for so long-and I have a bad case of reality when viewing it all now. It's very romantic to have this vision of a godlike master putting someone back together...............but it never works that way in reality. Now you might be supportive in helping someone else do it for THEMSELVES- but that is the fullest extent that any level of control can make possible.

It has to be proactive on both sides to work. I'm the first one to tell a new girl-"I'm no god,I'll make mistakes-and I'll get called on them. But at the same time-I won't try to justify them-any more than I'll let YOU get way with that crap."

And make it very clear that I am likely to react with a BIG slap of "the reality trout" upside her head if she EVER tries hoisting me up on a pedestal. I think that the emphasis on "broken" had to deal with unresolved issues- and flat out mental illness John.

And again,it is NOT up to a Dominant to fix or repair that.

(in reply to Rover)
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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/19/2005 12:11:55 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks for the comments, Gemini. Seems we have probably had similar experiences in the distant past, culminating in the same swim in the reality pool (though I enjoyed the visual of using the "reality trout").

And while I share your sentiments that people have to "do it for themselves", there are limits to what any of us can do for ourselves, even with the help of others. I cannot make myself taller, smarter, or able to carry a note beyond the shower. There's much we simply have to accept about ourselves... and move on.

Unresolved issues? Mental health issues? Hey, those have to be resolved before even considering a relationship with someone... regardless of lifestyle. If not resolved beforehand, there's a good chance that upon their resolution you're no longer the person that's compatible with your partner. And that's not fair to either you or your partner.

It's tempting to fall prey (as both Dominant and submissive) to the fantasy and overly romanticized versions of the lifestyle that simply don't exist, in which a Dominant (choose from amongst the following) 1. "fixes" the submissive 2. "molds" the submissive into whatever they desire 3. "trains" the submissive into "normalcy" (gotta love that hideous term) 4. Insert whatever scene and/or fantasy from your favorite erotic lifestyle fictional novel.

We're just regular folks enjoying some decidedly irregular relationship dynamics and/or "play" activities (emphasis on regular folks). I'm happy with that.

John

(in reply to Gemeni)
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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/19/2005 5:34:54 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Please accept my thanks for the responses so far ... this is an excellent place to learn, from my perspective.

caitlyn

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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/19/2005 6:26:40 PM   
slavedesires


Posts: 669
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		Caitlyn (and others),

i think you will find this thread dove tails alot with the one on "Emotioanl Masochism."

~~shy

_____________________________

i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/19/2005 7:07:33 PM   
Gemeni


Posts: 255
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline 		What I have found is usually true in playing "White Knight to a "cinderalla submissive" is this John.

He does his best,invests a lot of time and energy into her-and still fails miserably. Since the sub is in a state of denial and simply refuses to change. Eventually,he simply has to release her-once he finally accepts that it 's a lost cause. With even more damage being done to both parties as a consequence.

The defeated Knight then becomes another "villain who did her wrong" to add to her baggage train. It's very sad and depressing-I tend to flee from damsels in distress these days. Dragons in disguise are never all that fun-and I seem to have lost my horse and armour someplace.

But show me a decent woman who knows she has issues-but admits it and takes personal responsibility.......And has more than her elbows to put on the table-hell yes-I'll do everything in my power to make dreams come true.

That's the way it SHOULD be.

< Message edited by Gemeni -- 7/19/2005 7:09:45 PM >

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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/19/2005 7:42:45 PM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline
caitlyn...a person who has been abused can be healed. In all likelihood they will be an empath, or a rescuer, or some other form of postivity turned a bit high will remain, as will the memories. However, abused people do not in every case abuse others in their care..some become great parents and loving partners.

To some degree it depends on the nature and extent of the abuse, and the relationship between the abused person and the abuser...physical/sexual abuse of a child by a parent is the most extreme. The person most necessary for the child's survival turns on the child and becomes a source of danger. This creates a great chasm of confusion and sorrow in the child...but nevertheless, no one is doomed to seek out abusive men to renact the abuse and thus feel a "type of love".

Whether you are alone or involved now, caitlyn, you can be helped. If you seek help and extend yourself, you can have a happy adulthood even after a miserable childhood.

i wish you the best.

pinkpleasures


< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 7/20/2005 7:38:01 PM >

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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/20/2005 2:03:54 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

What's all this emphasis on "broken"? Broken can easily be confused with "different", or outside the norm. Broken, depending on how you define it, may simply mean another form of being.


I love this sentance!

It is so beautiful to realise that something that may appear broken, isn't really, just different.
I have lots of objects that I use that other people deem as useless - but I just use them (usually ) for something else. I, and they, adapt.

Even with the broken glass, there is hope and possibility. It can be recycled, or those tiny pieces that were once one can be used for something else - all it takes is adaptation.

Of course, the glass has got to want to be adapted - and even strengthened at times, usually using itself - but it has to want to do that, it has to have the right tools, else it just crumbles and disappears, no matter how skilled the artists might be in assisting its evolution.

Peace

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/20/2005 4:31:03 PM   
subcheryl


Posts: 280
Joined: 11/2/2004
Status: offline 		Ok, I have a question. Is it possible for someone who is "broken" by past poor relationships, feelings of being used in these relationships for sex and money, to be mended through a gently, loving, faithful relationship? Are there Doms out there who can take such a "broken" item and mend it again with consistant efforts and building of trust. I know of such a person, and she so much wants someone who she can give the nurturing and desires to serve to, but is so afraid of rejection that it has almost crippled her. She doesn't want to be alone but for some reason she just can not except it as an adventure, trial and error, that until you get to know someone you never know if he is the one for you. She does not understand that in spite of the many hurtful relationships that I can get back up and keep going. Yes I hurt, yes I have my own little pity party, but I do eventually get up and go on, I feel I am worthy of someone and that someone is out there for me and nothing ventured nothing gained, and I am so thankful because I have found my Master, and he is so good to me, he encourages me and helps me to think thru things when I am down and I have just realized today that I can freely talk to him without fear of being judged by him. But how do you help that person move on, I beleive all she needs is someone who is patient and realizes her insecurities come from being hurt when all she wants is to give, in her eyes it is seen as rejection. Someone who will take the time to show her they appreciate her gift of submission and love, and reassure her that they will not tire of her and they will be there for her. So again is this the type of "broken" that can be fixed in the right relationship?

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/20/2005 4:46:57 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
You cannot help her move on - you can be there - support her - but you can't do anything. It is up to her to take that step. Not even the most patient, wonderful caring Dominant in the world can'heal ' her - it has to be up to her to let go of the past - learn from the mistakes and the hurt and not look back but look forward.

You can be there to sweep up the glass and gather it together - but to become something else, the glass has to give under the flame... to allow itself to be moulded - to allow its shape to change - to be willing to become something else - otherwise it will just become too hot and brittle and be prone to being shattered again.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/20/2005 7:51:43 PM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline
quote:

But how do you help that person move on, I beleive all she needs is someone who is patient and realizes her insecurities come from being hurt when all she wants is to give, in her eyes it is seen as rejection. Someone who will take the time to show her they appreciate her gift of submission and love, and reassure her that they will not tire of her and they will be there for her. So again is this the type of "broken" that can be fixed in the right relationship?

subcheryl


i completely agree with dark angel, cheryl; no one can cause change in someone else; the motivation must come from within each of us. If this is someone dear to you, what you can do is accept her as she is, without judging her, and thus provide her with at least one person who finds her to be a person of worth and dignity, rather than a person-in-waiting. If she ever demonstrates a want/need to change, you can certainly support her; help her locate a BDSM-friendly therapist, etc.

As for your question, can a Dom heal wounds inflicted on a submissive in childhood? i cannot truthfully answer. Certainly there is greater trust and intimacy achievable between a Dominant and a submissive than outside BDSM. However, Dominants are not mental health professionals; so i suppose it would depend on whether experiencing trust and intimacy would, by itself, effect a healing. For some submissives it probably would; for others, no, i think professional help would be a necessary part of a recovery to the point of a full and happy adulthood. Bear in mind what a range of behaviors is captured by the term "abuse" and the different personalities little children have. No one can say with authority that, yes, every submissive could be healed by the right Dominant.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 7/20/2005 7:56:46 PM >

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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/20/2005 9:13:51 PM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall, Humpty Dumpty had a great fall. All of the Kings horses and of his men, couldn't put Humpty together again.

Yes my heart has been broken, yes it is now mended, but yes a scare sill remains. So though I am whole, I will never quite be the same or as naive. We take a chance of being broken in everything we do. If we break, we can still come back bent. But when we cease to stop trying, it's when we truely do become completly broken and unrepairable.

Sometimes, my only freinds where Jack and the Captian. But with friends like that it's best to not let them over stay there welcome. For me time heals and I build myself up. I refuse to let one person ruin my life and become the escape goat for any of my future failures. I've heard the story atleast 100 times of the guy who gets dump, drops out of college, moves back in with mom and gets fat while working some low paying job. Then they realize how dumb the where and complain about "this is my life now." Just pitiful and it's not how I want to be.

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

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RE: Beyond Understanding - 7/21/2005 6:02:34 AM   
Sweeticing


Posts: 164
Joined: 12/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn


Almost every email or conversation eventually comes to the question of the day ... what makes you interested in this, what do you hope to get out of this? What are you looking for here? That's a hard question to even understand, much less answer.

caitlyn



It wasent but a few weeks ago I was chatting with someone I have been chatting to for over 2 years and out of the blue we were talking about my love of spanking, receive and give.. Anyhow my once open minded nonjudgmental friend was telling me this is how it is supposed to be done and how wrong I was going about it or I was taught wrong, first this really pisses me off because I don't believe there is only one way to do things and then he asked if my dad ever spanked me as a child now he just crossed the line never talk about my dad he just passed away in January. But I was like no he NEVER spanked me because I was a girl and he was a large man *not fat* and was scared he would hurt me.

So I was kinda ticked that he was making refrence that because my dad spanked me as a child I now want to do this as an adult to other people or have them do it to me so I could feel fatherly love.
.....Are you all following me on this if not I can explain in more depth...... I finally told him it was a good thing we were conversing over the Internet or I would have given him a great spanking for talking like that. sure some people may be that way but you are throwing them into 2 categories either you parents spanked you and you want to feel there love OR they didn't and you feel you need the attention you once didn't get. It made me mad he missed the obvious Heck I just like the sensation and control.
Not once did my parents come to mind
So I may be off the topic but I don't like people to try and tell me why I must have a great reason to like or be into bdsm. Especially someone who is into it . I felt like I was trying to prove I wasen't mental.

**Vent over**

_____________________________

quote:


"What one has not experienced, one will never understand in print."...


quote:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge" Albert Einstein..

(in reply to caitlyn)
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