RE: Heritage or Hate?

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HotFaerieMama -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/18/2007 10:38:06 PM)
lets see i'm " white trash " for wearing dixie . for celebrating my southern heritaage.. yet me and my family have been called white trash for a long time wayy before i even knew what dixie was. yes there are people out there who will think that i am white trash for wearing dixie but they are just ignorant assholes the rich folk call me white trash because of my upbrining and that i do not have lots of cash or a big house with 5 cars .. they look down upon us blue collar folk....

domiguy -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/18/2007 10:47:30 PM)
To bad you are not German...You could celebrate your heritage by wearing a swastika...That just might be as equally as fun for you...Then you would be viewed as German "moley" trash ....Which might be a welcome change of pace....A gal can only dream.

Termyn8or -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/18/2007 10:53:22 PM)
Actually I am about getting sick of this. We were talking about a symbol, a flag or some shit and them somebody smacking their kid around to get them to wash the swastika off their body part. We have been through 35% of all world history, science and DNA technology and still I sit here wondering 'what planet is this ?'. The fact of the matter is that people are so goddamn stupid they will all kill each other, leaving us at the top of the food chain. Count your blessings. T

CuriousLord -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/18/2007 11:00:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: itseeks Living in West Virginia rebel flags are just about everywhere.My 13 year old son loves wearing shirts that show the flag .He was told to turn his shirt inside out the other day in school because someone found it offensive.My son gets along with everyone(besides the teachers).He does not chose his friends by colors.My believe is there are many other slogans on shirts that are way more offensive than the rebel flag or am i wrong? The rebel flags, in my observations, are more typically about heritage and identity. However, this is not to say that a disposition towards racism is not part of this heritage. My own family is pretty deeply involved in "Daughters of the Confederacy" and "Daughters of the American Revolution". While I care nothing for these things (I see them as romantic fictional takes on history), I have extensively noted a lack of racism; it's all about the belief that their ancestry is based in noble historical figures. It's just another religion, in my view. Perhaps somewhat less vulgar in lacking the ideas that the universal is fundamentally different.

SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 2:00:15 AM)
it amazes me how much a hot button issue this is.......and i respect each persons opinion.... but ill stick to mine-the south is where i am from, i love all its strangeness and symbols, i dont get offended when called a redneck, as i am secure enough in who i am for it not to bother me. this is a subject that no one will change their minds on.... if someone saw me wearing a shirt from the local hunting store-that had a rebel flag hangin behind the deer on it-and decided that makes me an idiotic hillbilly-that is their choice....and id bet theyre not someone id enjoy being around anyhow. everyone doesnt like everyone-aint it great we can all be different in this country? this is totally out in left field-and im sure ill get flamed at for it but here goes... wiitwd offends many......wear some symbol of it and some would look at you and think thats an abuser or a slut....if the symbol had the press of the rebel flag....they would look uopn you and assume you were a horrible person, deviant, wacko, pick yer moniker.... this symbol (collar, pin, shirt, wtfe) means to you i am happy with who i am and not ashamed of it. but they cant see youre a great mom or dad, work 50 hours a week and volunteer at a homeless shelter-only a symbol of your perversion....so therefore you are evil and not worthy of their time......... i am offended by pants that hang low enough to show the boxers the man is wearing.....the cop that came to talk to the kids at my school told them it began in prison, as symbols of availability to homosexual sex.....another cop said it began as a protest by men in prison who were mad they didnt get pants that fit them when issued a jail uniform......therefore, all men making this fashion choice must be ex cons......i shall start running when i see them and assume theyre dangerous.... thats logical huh?

seeksfemslave -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 2:08:37 AM)
I have found this a very interesting thread....a couple of points Strange how some, who presumably oppose "racism", can use comments like white trash. The Flag is a symbol and it is not possible to know what are the motives of those who display that symbol simply by viewing that display Is it ? Swastica excepted The US civil war was basically about Union and Political Control of the Economy, but because the Southern economy was agricultural and used slave labour that fact was used as an emotional club to further the North's cause. The Brit. economy suffered by the blockades imposed by the dastardly (lol) Northerners and in fact we came close to intervening on the Confederate side. We wanted to get our own back after earlier "mishaps" To Domiguy in particular I was talking about the oppression of Black on Black in Africa which is still happening as a matter of fact.

LadyEllen -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 2:45:41 AM)
I've found this thread interesting too. What I take from it is that I am in fact totally in error, or at least out of step with most people and therefore possibly subject to some psychopathology in that symbols dont offend me, and I see it as poor manners to deliberately set out to offend. This is very useful to me, as I can now take action to remedy my state of mind. Hence, from this moment forward I shall no longer treat Christians as anything more than scum. Hence, from this day on I shall take great offence at displays of Christian symbols, and possibly report those displaying them should they not remove them immediately from sight. Because, I shall from now on, not see in such people an attempt on their part to live the life they choose, nor in such symbols the result of centuries of dedication to a way of life nor displays of allegiance to that way of life. Instead, I shall see the symbols of violence, destruction, torture, outlawry, persecution, slavery, sequestration, vandalism and murder, perpetrated against my people under them. Instead, I shall see the sort of people who would visit such violence, destruction, torture, outlawry, persecution, slavery, sequestration, vandalism and murder upon me and my family. Just because these people arent doing this right now, doesnt mean they wouldnt. In fact, reading up on them, I see that many of them admit to a strong dislike for the traditions and ways of my people, so there's little holding them back. Thanks to all who contributed to my enlightenment on this issue. Apart from any who are f'in Christians of course, or wear that accursed crucifix. E

meatcleaver -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 2:49:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy To bad you are not German...You could celebrate your heritage by wearing a swastika...That just might be as equally as fun for you...Then you would be viewed as German "moley" trash ....Which might be a welcome change of pace....A gal can only dream. You'd be imprisoned for wearing NAZI garb in Germany, it is an offence that is taken very seriously.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 4:00:52 AM)
I think I'm pretty much immune to most symbols anymore. Burn the flag if you want to, by the manner in which you burn it, and the statements before and after it should be pretty clear if you burned it out of hate or frustration. Wear the rebel flag, it should be be plenty clear if you are wearing it out of pride of southern heritage, or because you hate blacks soon enough. Wear baggy jeans, and prison inspired fashions, it should become clear pretty rapidly if you idolize criminals or just have a bad sense of fashion quick enough. Speak of Black Pride, or White Pride, and shortly enough it become clear if you mean Black/White supremacy or if you mean pride in our races past. Most symbols and or words do have more than one meaning and even common slogans can mean different things to different people. However, the people that are just as bad as racist, IMO, impose their single meaning of the symbol on to all of those that may use that symbol. That is nearly the same as racism in my view. The arguments based on history break down at a certain point, as symbols meanings aren't cast in stone. A swastika is still pretty universal in its meaning because of the shear volume and constant use in a consistent manner via media portrayals. The southern flag well, there are several valid meanings to it, along with other symbols.

eyesopened -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 4:20:53 AM)
Okay, i'm one of those "damn" yankees who moved to South Carolina after having been raised a Swedish-decent Lutheran in Minnesota... was raised to see racism as an atrocity and the N word held equal punishment in my childhood home as saying the F word. i was taught only the ignorant and the crass would think or talk like that. One of the first things i noticed when i moved here is that EVERYthing is race related and that it is nearly a crime to be caucasion or non Baptist. My UMs were called "white boy" and "white girl" every single day even by teachers and bus drivers. My daughter's best friend was not allowed to even come to our house because we are white and the friend was black. Recently a hiring decision i made at work was challenged by one of the internal applicants and the FIRST thing the HR director asked me was if the woman i hired was black. Had i hired a white person i would have had to make a written statement to defend that decision. Luckily i hired a black woman. i can honestly say that 95% of the racism i've experienced since i moved here has been hatred toward whites. The problem with symbols is that any symbol can be offensive to someone. Doing away with one symbol and another takes its place. Maybe a certain amount not taking symbols so seriously coupled with being more sensitive to others would result in more tolerance. Maybe seeing people as more alike than different would help. Name calling has never been productive.

Politesub53 -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 5:19:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or Oh boy. Sit down. Satyr, one of these days we will have to sit down for a beer or something. So many points have been raised at this point I almost don't know where to start. So I will start with something else. Any White supremacists, hear this. Black peoples' ancestors did not abandon their original country, they were taken by force. You'll find very few Euro-Americans or anyone else who can say that. White people wanted to be here because conditions in their homeland became untenable. This wasnt the case prior to the revolution. More white people were indentured servants, ie white slaves, than black people. Most left their homelands due to religious persecution or because they were convicts. Here in the UK if you were caught stealing to feed your family, the choice was " Do you want to hang or be removed to the Colonies " Guess which people " Chose" The founding fathers left England not for a better life but to escape persecution. As far as the flag is concerned, it`s a bit of a generalisation to call everyone displaying it white scum.

Alumbrado -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 5:57:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave I have found this a very interesting thread....a couple of points Strange how some, who presumably oppose "racism", can use comments like white trash. What do you think the term refers to? Are there no trashy people with light skin where you live? [:D] It is a specific refutation of the notion that only black people live in poverty, I'm not sure how you see that as inconsistent with opposing racism. quote: The Flag is a symbol and it is not possible to know what are the motives of those who display that symbol simply by viewing that display Is it ? Swastica excepted If the symbol is one adopted as code for '4 Klansmen looking down a well', or 'Segregation forever', or 'Odinism', then one can use the same process employed in divining the intentions of a Swastika wearer. http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/default_graphics.asp quote: The US civil war was basically about Union and Political Control of the Economy, but because the Southern economy was agricultural and used slave labour that fact was used as an emotional club to further the North's cause. The Brit. economy suffered by the blockades imposed by the dastardly (lol) Northerners and in fact we came close to intervening on the Confederate side. We wanted to get our own back after earlier "mishaps" To Domiguy in particular I was talking about the oppression of Black on Black in Africa which is still happening as a matter of fact. Fascinating topics for discussion, but the 'Rebel' flag is not about the Civil War (as already mentioned, it would have been rarely, if at all seen in that era) or Middle Passage slavery. The various Southern states incorporated it into their flags by mid-20th century in defiant reference to Jim Crow era disenfranchisement of blacks (of which equal access to education was but one part). And it is that slap in the face which current display evokes.

Sweetberry -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 6:11:58 AM)
What a thorough argument, Alumbrado. As for "black on black" oppression in Africa, how is it any different from Asian, middle eastern, or western Europe oppression of the past and present? I think it's a little unfair to assume that just because everyone's the same race, they should automatically get along. Before there were white people in Africa, there were all black tribes that were distinct of each other. Don't be silly, whoever said that. Identity doesn't start with the landing of white people and their perverse need to subjugate 'natives.'

itseeks -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 6:12:55 AM)
Wow.I am really surprised about all the anger that this post created.That was not my intention.AS to white trash .....well i would like to believe i am not.I work hard for a living and to raise my kids.My son has many friends of many different colors and races.Shit one of his friends wears the flag as well and he is black.And for the Nazi thing........Well since i was born and raised in Germany before coming to the united states and becoming a citizen(with explains my typos since English is not my native tongue)i do understand how that could be offensive.My kids are American born but since i was born in Germany they have been called Nazis at times.I raised my kids so that word don't anger them .I told them it was just a word and it does not mean a darn thing unless you let it.

meatcleaver -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 6:18:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or Oh boy. Sit down. Satyr, one of these days we will have to sit down for a beer or something. So many points have been raised at this point I almost don't know where to start. So I will start with something else. Any White supremacists, hear this. Black peoples' ancestors did not abandon their original country, they were taken by force. You'll find very few Euro-Americans or anyone else who can say that. White people wanted to be here because conditions in their homeland became untenable. This wasnt the case prior to the revolution. More white people were indentured servants, ie white slaves, than black people. Most left their homelands due to religious persecution or because they were convicts. Here in the UK if you were caught stealing to feed your family, the choice was " Do you want to hang or be removed to the Colonies " Guess which people " Chose" The founding fathers left England not for a better life but to escape persecution. As far as the flag is concerned, it`s a bit of a generalisation to call everyone displaying it white scum. This is oh not true politesub, well not entirely black and white as your post appears to claim. Very few criminals were sent to America, though many to the Carribean and most to the antipodes. Many Europeans went to the Americas to seek their fortune or to increase their fortune and many did with the help of slaves. It was quite popular for the younger sons of aristocrats and the gentry who had little chance of an inheritance, emigrating to the Americas for the reason of finding their own fortune. As for religious freedom, ask yourself why there are so many fundemental religious zealots in America. The answer is simple, they went as zealots, they refused to remain in Europe amongst people of other beliefs. There is still a black stocking church around the corner from where my daughter lives from where the Speedwell set sail for Plymouth and then onto America. The congregation is still small minded and bigoted. We are just thankful they are small in number and have no influence other than on their own small minded, inward looking community. The reason for their small numbers is that way back most emigrated to the Americas. Look at the ancestry of the American political elite. You will find very few whose ancestors fled persecution or went to the Americas for religious freedom, most were well born. (in the class sense)

Sweetberry -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 6:25:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened Okay, i'm one of those "damn" yankees who moved to South Carolina after having been raised a Swedish-decent Lutheran in Minnesota... was raised to see racism as an atrocity and the N word held equal punishment in my childhood home as saying the F word. i was taught only the ignorant and the crass would think or talk like that. One of the first things i noticed when i moved here is that EVERYthing is race related and that it is nearly a crime to be caucasion or non Baptist. My UMs were called "white boy" and "white girl" every single day even by teachers and bus drivers. My daughter's best friend was not allowed to even come to our house because we are white and the friend was black. Recently a hiring decision i made at work was challenged by one of the internal applicants and the FIRST thing the HR director asked me was if the woman i hired was black. Had i hired a white person i would have had to make a written statement to defend that decision. Luckily i hired a black woman. i can honestly say that 95% of the racism i've experienced since i moved here has been hatred toward whites. The problem with symbols is that any symbol can be offensive to someone. Doing away with one symbol and another takes its place. Maybe a certain amount not taking symbols so seriously coupled with being more sensitive to others would result in more tolerance. Maybe seeing people as more alike than different would help. Name calling has never been productive. Being from South Carolina, I have to comment. I'm a black female and my family has always been here, with the obvious exception. I don't find it hard to believe that black people where you are are probably suspicious of you. They probably hold opinions about you based on your race. The family that won't let their little girl come over may suspect that you're not unlike Catholic priests and that you rape little children. Two strikes: non-black, non-Baptist. Try to think about how they may be seeing things. I'm sure life, as far as race relations goes, hasn't been a skip, hop, and a jump. Speaking from my own experiences, if every time I said something to a white person, they looked like they were about to jump right out of their skin, I'd assume they were racist on some level. Are you sure you're not one of these types? You're not racist and you don't say nigger, but you have some reserves anyways? Watched a little too much television in your childhood and walk around with preconceived notions that may project too brightly? If that's the case, then no wonder. I'm not saying you're wrong or that this is, in fact, the case. But I think it's a little more than just "Oh gee, the black people hate white people!" Besides that, what agency do they really have to do anything to you? Nothing, basically. Your thing at work? I'm sure that was hurtful, but imagine how jaded someone would have to be to always be thinking that their skin color is a handicap? Imagine how sad an existence that must be? How pathetic? So, the moral is, next time you feel so threatened by their sideways glances or their kids not coming over to play with yours, have a cook out and invite some of your neighbors over. Before you're white, you're a stranger anyways. How can you be sure they know you? It helps to be objective in all cases.

Sweetberry -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 6:44:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HotFaerieMama lets see i'm " white trash " for wearing dixie . for celebrating my southern heritaage.. yet me and my family have been called white trash for a long time wayy before i even knew what dixie was. yes there are people out there who will think that i am white trash for wearing dixie but they are just ignorant assholes the rich folk call me white trash because of my upbrining and that i do not have lots of cash or a big house with 5 cars .. they look down upon us blue collar folk.... ..."Rich folk," as you call them, are also the ones that put Dixie on the backs of poor white people. I hope you're not one of the many poor white people out here who go around tooting a flag that represents just as much oppression for them as blacks. It's a symbol of hate and delusion. Get over it! Rich white southerners didn't have to fight because they could just pay a tax with food or slaves or money or what have you and get out of the obligation to sweet ol' Dixie. Hello.....? If the very people who start the war, don't want to fight in it, don't you find that just a tad odd? Like maybe they don't give a damn about the poor white people they send out there? If they're calling you white trash now, then they've been calling you white trash, and they'll be calling you white trash! And sadly, it sticks to most, because they are too ignorant to realize that all this racism is just part of an elaborate power play. While all "us blue collar folk" are writhing in misery over white v. black, "rich folk" are getting richer. And that's all there is to it. My best advice to all, white trash, niggers, and all in between is to just forget about it and do something about today. "Dixie" was too long ago for you to remember, clearly if your age is any indication. It's time to make some new history that may reflect a little more brightly on future generations.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 6:54:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Strange how some, who presumably oppose "racism", can use comments like white trash. What do you think the term refers to? Are there no trashy people with light skin where you live? [:D] It is a specific refutation of the notion that only black people live in poverty, I'm not sure how you see that as inconsistent with opposing racism. I think the term means more than simply living in poverty. It means lack of sophistication or intellectual interests. Plenty of Brits would consider me White Trash simply due to my interests and accent lol As an example I lurve motor bikes and engineering. Literary types give me the shits lol quote: Alumbrado If the symbol (in this case the Flag)is one adopted as code for '4 Klansmen looking down a well', or 'Segregation forever', or 'Odinism', then one can use the same process employed in divining the intentions of a Swastika wearer quote:from the link Alumbrado posted Although the flag is seen by some Southerners simply as a symbol of Southern pride, it is often used by racists to represent white domination of African-Americans quote: Alumbrado the 'Rebel' flag is not about the Civil War (as already mentioned, it would have been rarely, if at all seen in that era) or Middle Passage slavery. quote:from the link Alumbrado posted again re the Flag Traditional Use/Origins Civil War/Old South

slaveluci -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 6:55:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChainsandFreedom Luci, you're confused No, not confused at all. I've had a lifetime to think issues like this over and, believe me, I'm very clear on it. quote: But the symbols you wear are your choice. People consider confederate-flag bearing individuals trashy because they choose to be trashy What one chooses to wear is definately a personal choice. Regardless of what it is, I don't think it makes a person "trashy." That's just me. quote: Personally I think its these trashy individuals who make the South in general such an easy target for the rest of the country to laugh at, but that may just be me... No. Unfortunately, that's you and too many other people who are willing to generalize about an entire area of the country and the people in it. quote: When you wear the confederate flag you're trashy because you calling out for attention but not caring if you offend others. You want to be noticed, but you don't care whether or not you're liked. You're basically bullying attention out of people. You're saying you've given up trying not to offend people in the quest to satisy your ego and image. Again, "trashy" is not a description I choose to use about entire segments of people. But, let me see if I understand you here. You are saying that folks wearing a t-shirt you find offensive are "calling out for attention," "not caring if they offend others," "wanting to be noticed," and "not caring if they're you're liked." IF they are, so what? Does that make them hateful and evil? This site is full of those kinds of folks[;)]. One of the most blatant would be one of the folks who just tried to rip me a new here....lol....If seeking "attention" and purposely "offending" others makes you trash, this site must be the city dump on some days. Some posters do it with every response. Are they to be grouped under the same umbrella as the rest of the "trash?" Seems like a slippery slope to me. Once you can easily label one group "trash," you can start doing it more and more. None of the things you listed makes anyone "trashy," in my opinion. It makes them expressive. So, I don't like what they express? I'm grown. I'll manage...........luci

Alumbrado -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 7:05:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Strange how some, who presumably oppose "racism", can use comments like white trash. What do you think the term refers to? Are there no trashy people with light skin where you live? [:D] It is a specific refutation of the notion that only black people live in poverty, I'm not sure how you see that as inconsistent with opposing racism. I think the term means more than simply living in poverty. It means lack of sophistication or intellectual interests. Plenty of Brits would consider me White Trash simply due to my interests and accent lol As an example I lurve motor bikes and engineering. Literary types give me the shits lol quote: Alumbrado If the symbol (in this case the Flag)is one adopted as code for '4 Klansmen looking down a well', or 'Segregation forever', or 'Odinism', then one can use the same process employed in divining the intentions of a Swastika wearer quote:from the link Alumbrado posted Although the flag is seen by some Southerners simply as a symbol of Southern pride, it is often used by racists to represent white domination of African-Americans quote: Alumbrado the 'Rebel' flag is not about the Civil War (as already mentioned, it would have been rarely, if at all seen in that era) or Middle Passage slavery. quote:from the link Alumbrado posted again re the Flag Traditional Use/Origins Civil War/Old South You are being disingenuous, the fact that some people claim a non-existent Civil War heritage doesn't support your insinuation that anyone offended by the racist message implicit in the 'Rebel' flag display, is needlessly playing the race card.

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