RE: Heritage or Hate? (Full Version)

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Blaakmaan -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 4:42:04 PM)

At last, a substantive response!

But, I find it hard to believe that you have chosen to put that link forward as an authoritative source of historical information!!!

The link leads to a page entitled "The Truth About Slavery."

Now, that immediately made me suspicious!  Is there supposed to be some "truth" about slavery that's been covered up or something?  Now, how could that be, given the mountain of scholarship on the subject of American slavery?

I browsed the text.  These are the first 4 paragraphs:

The history of America and of Western Civilization is not being taught as it should be in our schools and universities today. Historical facts are suppressed, and what is taught is distorted in such a way as to advance the world government agenda, with all inconvenient historical facts, knowledge of which might cause our young people to question that agenda, purposely left out.
 
[image]http://www.crusader.net/images/dot.gif[/image]It is a tragedy of monumental proportions that our schools have been converted into "liberal" brainwashing institutions, though I do feel a sense of encouragement when I read that more and more real Americans are taking their children out of the public schools and teaching them at home. As regular listeners to this program know, the global elite that push multiculturalism push it because it undermines our national and racial sense of identity, and not out of any love or concern for ethnic minorities. In fact, it should be obvious to everyone that multiculturalism and globalism threaten the racial and cultural integrity of all peoples, not just White Americans. Nevertheless, because America is, or was until recently, a predominantly White nation, one of the primary ways that national disintegration is promoted by the destroyers of nations in this country is by the inculcation of White guilt for Black slavery.

[image]http://www.crusader.net/images/dot.gif[/image]By recounting and emphasizing again and again the real and imagined sufferings of Black people under slavery, the White student is made to feel that his ancestors were cruel, morally retarded, and evil. They are made to feel that they owe Black people a nearly infinite compensation, since, they are taught, Black people's problems today are the legacy of hundreds of years of slavery for which White people are responsible. They are taught that the relative prosperity which we enjoy today was achieved largely by exploitation of Black slaves. Is it any wonder that thousands of our young people join Jesse Jackson in chanting "Hey Hey Ho Ho, Western Culture's Gotta Go"? Is it any wonder that they all too often reject our European cultural heritage and embrace all forms of alien styles of music, dancing, dress, grooming and slang, from Jamaican "rasta" to "gangsta rap"? Is it any wonder that White teenagers are committing suicide in higher numbers every year? They have received, in our public schools and colleges, not a "liberal education," but an education by liberals. They have been taught very well indeed -taught that they and their ancestors and their traditions and their natural feelings are worthless and an obstacle to be overcome.

[image]http://www.crusader.net/images/dot.gif[/image]Now these liberal lies are easily countered by facts. The primary fact that must be emphasized is that many hundreds of thousands of White people were slaves in early America. In fact, White slavery was not only extremely common, but until the late 18th century it was far more common than Black slavery here. Also little known is the fact that living and labor conditions for Black slaves, bad as they often were, were usually far better than those for White slaves.

OK.  Now I know there's a problem with this "information."  So, I go to the home website.  It is:  http://www.stormfront.org

The symbol at the top of the forum page is:

<image removed>


I check out the forum posts.  Among them are:

"Who are your favorite White Actors?"

"Hitler's Deep Blue Eyes"

"Homosexuals Brainwashing Our Children in Elementary Schools"


With that, it's time for me to go!  You call this an accurate source of historical information?  I don't think so...


Anyway, here's what Wikipedia has to say about indentured servants:

An indentured servant (also called a bonded laborer) is a labourer under contract to work for an employer for a specific amount of time, usually two to seven years, to pay off a passage to a new country or home. Typically the employers provided little if any monetary remuneration; however, they were responsible for accommodation, food, other essentials, and training. Upon completion of the term of the contract the labourer sometimes received a lump sum payment such as a parcel of land or tools and was free to farm or take up trade of his or her own.
* * *
Indentured servitude is not identical with involuntary servitude and slavery. However, the system of power it created was often an opening for physical, sexual, and verbal abuse, as well as legal abuses of contract. In these circumstances, the system can represent a form of unfree labour. For example, indentured servants may be forced to purchase goods or services from the employer in exchange for an extension to the period of their indenture, which could thereby continue indefinitely. In other cases, indentured servants were subject to violence at the hands of their employers in the homes or fields in which they worked.

I think that comports pretty well with what I said in my earlier post.  Indentured servitude is not the same as slavery.

But thanks for your input!

[Mod Note:  image deleted]





camille65 -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 4:51:37 PM)

Not an unbiased link. Dang.




Sinergy -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 4:53:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan

Additionally, I think you have your facts wrong.

quote:



Slavery was not ended until 2 years into the war, only in the states in rebellion, and only because France and England refused to assist Lincoln in his war until he outlawed slavery.



Now, this is absolute, total, utter BS!

quote:



The Emancipation Proclamation only applied to the States then in rebellion against the government of the United States.  It was only effective in those areas in those States that were then under the control of the Union Army.



Of course slavery was outlawed after the war!  Until the Confederacy was militarily conquered, the federal government could not enforce anything in those states!  Just how could it have been otherwise???

England and France did not enter the war on the side of the Confederacy precisely because Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation made the war  a war against slavery instead of a war against secession.  Had England and France seen the war as you frame it, they might well have entered the war on the side of the Confederacy.  But they didn't.

Nobody calls the Civil War a "war of secession" except die-hard Confederates.  Is that you?

How about you try to keep your facts straight???





In the future, please read my statements before calling them B.S.  Failure to do so when attacking a person's posts often results in the person attacking appearing to be somewhat obtuse.

1)  I stated the states were only freed in states in rebellion, you stated that I was incorrect; slaves were only freed in the states in rebellion by the Emancipation Proclaimation.

2)  I stated slavery was only outlawed in all states after the war;  you state I am incorrect, it was outlawed in all states after the war.

3)  I stated England and France only helped Lincoln after freeing slaves in the states in rebellion;  you stated I was incorrect, England and France only helped Lincoln after he freed slaves in the states in Rebellion with the Emancipation Proclaimation.

Then you attempt to insult me by calling me an apologist for slave owners.  I am not sure your vituperative attack at me is demonstrative of a particularly literate person, one able to level-headedly examine all sides of an issue, or a well-read historian.

Think twice, post once.

Sinergy




SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 4:54:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

ok i get it-your opinion is the only one that matters-and were all ignorant as heck....thanks for the awakening to what is right and wrong in my thinking.....

i no longer wish to defend your right to be offended by the flag.......i think youre offended by anyone or anything that doesnt absolutely agree with your outlook on something.....so if you dont have to give me the right to how i feel, which to me is right and not racist in my mind and heart-i dont have to allow you to be pissed about something that happened a generation ago....

im getting the rebel flag tag for my truck tomorrow......thanks for helping me make up my mind on this touchy subject.....glad to know, no matter how much i try to be understanding and sensitive, jerks are still gonna be jerks.......

have you ever worn a hat or shirt or anything with the big X on it?



This is my favorite part of these kinds of threads...When people simply can't help themselves..They will always manage to show their true colors.


well, my colors are red white and blue-no matter what flag theyre on.....and if you choose to say that about me, but ignore the "colors" shown by the blaackman, which is more racist than anything any one else has posted(imho only of course), that shows your true colors....

such is life.........




AquaticSub -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 4:59:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

Unfortunately, that doesn't mean anything. The moment you were born, you inherited the crimes and the guilt from actions taken by past generations. You must bear the burden now, you must be insensitive, unable to understand, unable to sympathize. And your only crime was being born white.


I'm Irish. I didn't even count as white until pretty recently.




Alumbrado -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 5:01:50 PM)

quote:

Here is one link but there are many available for you to read.
http://www.crusader.net/texts/bt/bt07.html

As you said yourself, you will see or not see what you wish.


Many available, but you chose to identify yourself with the one from Stormfront?
[8|]




lazarus1983 -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 5:04:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

Unfortunately, that doesn't mean anything. The moment you were born, you inherited the crimes and the guilt from actions taken by past generations. You must bear the burden now, you must be insensitive, unable to understand, unable to sympathize. And your only crime was being born white.


I'm Irish. I didn't even count as white until pretty recently.


Not according to blaakmaan:

"White man, Swedish-American (I thought that was white!) woman!

All the same to me!"

So apparently all whites are the same. It doesn't matter if we're from Russia, Canada, England, Poland, Sweden, Germany, Switzerland, Kosovo...we're all the same. Why? Just because the color of our skin. And apparently that's all that matters, is that we have the same color of skin.




Politesub53 -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 5:05:29 PM)

Blaakmaan..... Forget where the link leads, there are lots of sites about white slavery on the net, as i pointed out.

You failed to mention anything to do with the origin of the word kidnap, or the other facts from English history that i mention.




SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 5:07:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I find the flag to be offensive...I do jump to conclusions about those who choose to "fly" it....There have been others on this thread that have chimed in to say that they also find it to be offensive....If you go through the cartoons in the link that I posted,  There are obviously many people who have reached the same conclusion.

Judging how the "flag waving Southerners" are depicted within these cartoons it is rather obvious that others share in my mindset as to what type of individual still clings to this relic from the past.


but you dont get that some of us flag waving southerners can hold to the past and move to the future.....yes i love the rebel flag, and to hear dixie sang......

i also love the kids i sneak little presents to at work......they are of all colors, i love my friends, of all colors, some who are offended by the flag, and we have discussed it-as adults, looking at both sides, some who dont care about something from the past because they have moved past it.....or were never "taught" it represented racism, just as i was never taught that....

the house i was raised in-the n word would get you a trip to the woodshed.  i never said it, because it was taught, with the interactions my dad had with others, it was not allowed.

he would call out anyone on disrespect, to anyone.  dad was robbed when i was about 5-pistol whipped badly, and left for dead.  the 2 men that did it happened to be black. a week or so after it happened, some family was over-and one particularly redneck, racist uncle said something to the effect of "thats what the N****** do".  This was an uncle that was feared by everyone, he was mean as hell-and eventually was stabbed to death in a fight.

dad calmly, and very intensely, said to the uncle, in front of other family, no this is what evil will do-no matter the color it is wrapped in.  he then told us kids to get-and we better never ever use that word because all men were gods creation and deserve respect.  we kids went to play and a few minutes later the uncle left, burnin rubber, and i dont think i ever saw him again in my life.  i remember this like it was last week still....and have done all i can to live my life by the things dad taught me.

dont assume to think you can judge my entire existence by a symbol i happen to like.

probably showing my true colors here again, but you have often been judged by your avatar.....are you less a compassionate individual because your avatar represents to some violence and such?

i honestly thought this could be a discussion, about why folks feel the way they do....this will be my last word on it, and i walk away more confused than when it all began.....

waltzes away to true colors by cyndy lauper......






AquaticSub -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 5:07:34 PM)

Next on my reading list is "How the Irish became white". I didn't even realize how recently it was until an older woman in one of my classes this semester was talking about how she could remember seeing signs in stores that said "No Irish need apply" when they were looking to hire.




Blaakmaan -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 5:27:15 PM)

I will read as soon as you do!

With respect to your #1, I said, of course the Emancipation Proclamation only applied to the states "then in rebellion" agains the United States.  And your point is, what?

With respect to your #2, I said, as your very own quotation states:  "Of course slavery was outlawed after the war!  Until the Confederacy was militarily conquered, the federal government could not enforce anything in those states!  Just how could it have been otherwise???"

With respect to your #3, where, exactly, do you see that I said you were incorrect?  In fact I said:

"England and France did not enter the war on the side of the Confederacy precisely because Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation made the war  a war against slavery instead of a war against secession.  Had England and France seen the war as you frame it, they might well have entered the war on the side of the Confederacy.  But they didn't."

Not only have you totally mis-read everything I said in my post, you haven't offered anything to support your position where we disagreed (if we actually did).

Now, you may have children, but I ain't one!  Somebody may want to call you "Daddy," but it ain't me!

I always think before I post.

And I always read what I'm responding to!

Did you?

And I'm not particularly concerned with your opinion of my literacy or historical knowledge.  I'll stack my historical and other knowledge against yours, particularly on this subject, at any time!

I do apologize for calling your post BS.  That might have crossed a line.

However, you can put your "think twice, post once" admonition in the same place you put that "Try to keep the facts straight..." commentary.

My facts are straight. You see to yours...




InkedMaster -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 7:41:06 PM)

To the OP, yes there are much more offensive t-shirts than the stars and bars, I know, I have them...

To the rest of the 8 pages, you want to see a race of people who suffered more than anyone in this Country...take a look at the North American Indian...enough said





Zensee -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 7:50:57 PM)

InkedMaster - Do you mean to say that the enormous suffering of the American Indian significantly mitigates or even excuses the oppression of  black slaves? Or do you mean that because you have "more" offensive t-shirts, a symbol of that oppression is not really offensive.

Or do you mean that you didn't bother to read the thread and posted, hoping that your observations would be novel, original and definitive?


Z.




itseeks -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 7:56:55 PM)

Thank you.And i agree with you about the Native Americans.They really have a right to be angry about a lot of things.




texancutie -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 8:03:35 PM)

Honest....I'm not really angry anymore.  [;)] 






luckydog1 -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 8:07:39 PM)

"With respect to your #1, I said, of course the Emancipation Proclamation only applied to the states "then in rebellion" agains the United States.  And your point is, what?

With respect to your #2, I said, as your very own quotation states:  "Of course slavery was outlawed after the war!  Until the Confederacy was militarily conquered, the federal government could not enforce anything in those states!  Just how could it have been otherwise???" "

Blaakman, because slavery remained legal in Maryland and Kentucky, untill some time after the war, the Emancipation Proclamation did not apply to the slave holding states that did not suceed from the USA(either of them).




Alumbrado -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 8:39:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Blaakmaan..... Forget where the link leads, there are lots of sites about white slavery on the net, as i pointed out.

You failed to mention anything to do with the origin of the word kidnap, or the other facts from English history that i mention.



And yet out of all those sites, the one you chose was the white supremacist one.[8|]




Sweetberry -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 9:18:42 PM)

To white people complaining about being victims of racism... Try being dragged from your bed when even God has closed his eyes. I know! Let's say you have a wife and kids. Let us also imagine that the men at your door have a cross burning on your front lawn, and are calling you boy though you're probably many years their senior. Just for kicks, let's pretend like they string you up and hang your body from a tree. What if they cut off your dick and then burn you alive? And oh boy, imagine if your kids had to watch that, forever remembering their father leaving the world as an emasculated chunk of carbon.

So you want to say it's heritage... I want to say so too.




caitlyn -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 9:56:44 PM)

Perhaps some people are not aware that of the thirteen Confederate states, five had virtually no slaves at all.
 
The two most decorated regiments in the Army of Northen Virginia, were the first and fourth Texas, recruited in a state where institutional slavery was nonexistent. The battle flag for these formation, was the bonny blue flag, which is still flown over the state capital to this day.
 
By mid-1864, there were more slaves in states loyal to the Union, than in all rebel states combined.
 
Read Doris Kearns Goodwin, before you decide that the south was fighting to maintain the institution of slavery. Her position, a very educated one, is that the war actually prolonged slavery in North America. By 1860, Southeastern states were already moving away from institutional slavery, as populations grew and a viable labor force became manifest.
 
The American Civil War as very complicated. Anyone that claims they know exactly why the war was fought, is only proving to everyone else that they know very little about the American Civil War.




Sinergy -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/19/2007 10:11:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan

I do apologize for calling your post BS.  That might have crossed a line.



You actually crossed the line when you insulted me by insinuating I was an apologist for the Confederacy.

Feel free to apologize.

I will not associate with a group that espouses bigotry against anybody.

That would be white on black, black on white, orange on chartruese, whatever.  I do not care what a person is; I care what a person does.

Sinergy




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