RE: Heritage or Hate?

RE: Heritage or Hate? (Full Version)

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Politesub53 -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 2:25:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: Here is one link but there are many available for you to read. http://www.crusader.net/texts/bt/bt07.html As you said yourself, you will see or not see what you wish. Many available, but you chose to identify yourself with the one from Stormfront? [8\|] Yes it wasnt the best link to use but that doesnt mean the facts were basically wrong.

itseeks -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 5:55:54 AM)
After reading all the replies i feel like i owe about every nation (whatever you might call it without offending)an apology.Not for something i did but for something one of my ancestors might have done.For being white to everyone that hates whites.For being European born to all the nations that have suffered by actions way before i was born.Do i agree about the way my forefathers acted.No i do not but try as i may i cannot change it.So why cant we stop putting labels on people .So called normalpeople call us freaks because we live our life's different.Is that not hard enough ?Do we as a community have to put each other down in our own ranks?

seeksfemslave -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 6:46:45 AM)
A question to Blaakmaan, which worries you more... slavery that existed in the US 150 odd years ago but was eventually stopped OR slavery that is occuring in Africa today. ? nb the question is about slavery NOT racial prejudice.

slaveluci -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 7:28:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: itseeks After reading all the replies i feel like i owe about every nation (whatever you might call it without offending)an apology.Not for something i did but for something one of my ancestors might have done.For being white to everyone that hates whites.For being European born to all the nations that have suffered by actions way before i was born.Do i agree about the way my forefathers acted.No i do not but try as i may i cannot change . It's a phenomenon called "white guilt." Hopefully you'll get over it. Growing up and even into my early adult years, I felt it as well. I knew I wasn't racist and hateful and it bothered me to think of all that had been done to other racial groups by other white people. How that made it my guilt to bear I have no idea. The thing is, it wasn't my guilt to bear. I have never participated in or even tacitly supported racial prejudice or hatred in my little sphere of influence so I have nothing to feel guilty about. This really came home to me when I began thinking of who my ancestors really are. Poor whites who, as Bounty mentioned earlier, were indentured servants not ones who owned them and tenant farmers or sharecroppers rather than slaveowners. My ancestors were WV coal miners and if you don't think THAT was a form of slavery back then, look it up. It was. Start off in debt, be paid in tokens, and virtually held prisoner. Funny that topic doesn't come up much. To me, it all boils down to classism more than anything else. The poor - whatever race or ethic origin - have always been totally screwed and abused by the rich (who yes, have historically been and still are, white). They invest much in pitting those groups against each other because if that can happen, they won't band together to murder the rich bastards who are really responsible for most of their agony. So, when I realized that none of my white ancestors had ever had enough money to "hold down" blacks or any other group, that guilt melted away. I realize one can think racist thoughts and even lash out at racial minorities without having money, of course, but I'm referring to the institutional racism in society that keeps minority groups of all kinds from progressing. Though the typical stereotype of a white racist involves trailers, trucks, mullets, and rebel flag t-shirts, I find it should instead involve three-piece, pinstriped suits and fountain pens (to quote Woody Guthrie). Anyway....kind of scatter-shot thinking. It's so hard to solidify all my thoughts on this. Suffice it to say, there's no need for you to feel guilt if you aren't directly responsible for spreading such racism in your own life............luci

DomKen -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 8:03:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: itseeks After reading all the replies i feel like i owe about every nation (whatever you might call it without offending)an apology.Not for something i did but for something one of my ancestors might have done.For being white to everyone that hates whites.For being European born to all the nations that have suffered by actions way before i was born.Do i agree about the way my forefathers acted.No i do not but try as i may i cannot change it.So why cant we stop putting labels on people .So called normalpeople call us freaks because we live our life's different.Is that not hard enough ?Do we as a community have to put each other down in our own ranks? Most people who have had bad things done to them or their ancestors by "whites" are not expecting an apology from you but a lot of them would prefer not to have symbols intended to remind them of those bad things be so pervasive that it is impossible to avoid. The Nazi swastika, adapted for their purpose, and the "rebel" flag, made up by racists for their purpose, are two such symbols. The swastika at least has an earlier origin and forms are used elsewhere for religious purposes. The same cannot be said for the "rebel" flag. It was never flown by the CSA and was made up during the civil rights movement by racists to symbolically oppose that movement. I'm southern and I'm proud of my ancestry. My ancestors fought on both sides of the Civil War. However I will never display a symbol of racist oppression. If you must visually display your pride in being from the south find some other symbol.

domiguy -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 8:17:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci quote: ORIGINAL: itseeks After reading all the replies i feel like i owe about every nation (whatever you might call it without offending)an apology.Not for something i did but for something one of my ancestors might have done.For being white to everyone that hates whites.For being European born to all the nations that have suffered by actions way before i was born.Do i agree about the way my forefathers acted.No i do not but try as i may i cannot change . It's a phenomenon called "white guilt." Hopefully you'll get over it. Growing up and even into my early adult years, I felt it as well. I knew I wasn't racist and hateful and it bothered me to think of all that had been done to other racial groups by other white people. How that made it my guilt to bear I have no idea. The thing is, it wasn't my guilt to bear. I have never participated in or even tacitly supported racial prejudice or hatred in my little sphere of influence so I have nothing to feel guilty about. This really came home to me when I began thinking of who my ancestors really are. Poor whites who, as Bounty mentioned earlier, were indentured servants not ones who owned them and tenant farmers or sharecroppers rather than slaveowners. My ancestors were WV coal miners and if you don't think THAT was a form of slavery back then, look it up. It was. Start off in debt, be paid in tokens, and virtually held prisoner. Funny that topic doesn't come up much. To me, it all boils down to classism more than anything else. The poor - whatever race or ethic origin - have always been totally screwed and abused by the rich (who yes, have historically been and still are, white). They invest much in pitting those groups against each other because if that can happen, they won't band together to murder the rich bastards who are really responsible for most of their agony. So, when I realized that none of my white ancestors had ever had enough money to "hold down" blacks or any other group, that guilt melted away. I realize one can think racist thoughts and even lash out at racial minorities without having money, of course, but I'm referring to the institutional racism in society that keeps minority groups of all kinds from progressing. Though the typical stereotype of a white racist involves trailers, trucks, mullets, and rebel flag t-shirts, I find it should instead involve three-piece, pinstriped suits and fountain pens (to quote Woody Guthrie). Anyway....kind of scatter-shot thinking. It's so hard to solidify all my thoughts on this. Suffice it to say, there's no need for you to feel guilt if you aren't directly responsible for spreading such racism in your own life............luci Again, way off point....It has nothing to do with "white guilt." It has to do with understanding that the confederate flag is held to be offensive by a large portion of the citizens of this country....I don't go around wearing a swastika....I'm not German....I certainly don't posses an ounce of "German Guilt".... It just isn't cool, and I am wise enough to realize that it would upset some people and many others would view me as some sort of an idiot. The people that would applaud my wearing of a swastika are the very folks that I try my best to avoid. I guess it all boils down to the fact that I am just a sensitive, extremely polite person that would never offend anyone....But, I'm special that way.

slaveluci -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 8:28:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Again, way off point....It has nothing to do with "white guilt." It has to do with understanding that the confederate flag is held to be offensive by a large portion of the citizens of this country....I don't go around wearing a swastika....I'm not German....I certainly don't posses an ounce of "German Guilt".... It just isn't cool, and I am wise enough to realize that it would upset some people and many others would view me as some sort of an idiot. The people that would applaud my wearing of a swastika are the very folks that I try my best to avoid. I guess it all boils down to the fact that I am just a sensitive, extremely polite person that would never offend anyone....But, I'm special that way. [:D]. Good morning, Domiguy. Yes, you are indeed special. I'll give you that[:)]. I'm indeed not way off point because I wasn't referring to the wearing or display of the flag today. I was referring to what itseeks said about feeling badly for what her ancestors may or may not have done. That is "white guilt." It is a legitimate topic that books have been written about. As I said, I used to feel the same way. I do see your point about not going around wearing a swastika. In all the posts I've made on this subject, you'll notice I have never said that I wear or display a Confederate flag. I do not. Not because I think it automatically makes me a racist to do so, but because people would see it and assume lots of things just because they see it. I don't wish to alienate the public at large by wearing a symbol that I know many people are offended by. My whole point in this thread is to point out the hypocrisy of wanting to appear so accepting of everyone and "non" racist but at the same time calling people WHITE TRASH. White is a race and "trash" is a horrible word. Just as bad as the "N" word if not worse. If someone wants to rid the world of all "racist" symbology such as rebel flags, that's for them to believe. But don't set yourself up as some totally accepting non-racist thinker and at the same time, call anyone "trash." That's my point................luci

Archer -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 8:34:10 AM)
DomKEn you sure you want to stick with the idea that the rebel flag (correctly refered to a the Confederate Battle Flag or the Flag of the Army of Northern Virgina) was made up during the 60's? I think I can find enough historic evidence that the Red flag with blue cross and stars existed, was photgraphicly documented, artisticly documented, examples sitting in museums, etc, to make that claim look pretty uninformed. Now I will agree that during the 60's the racists adopted the use of the Confederate Battle Flag but "Made Up" is simply historicly incorrect. It is not the "Stars and Bars" a completely different flag, however it was integrated into the "Stainless Banner the second national flag of the CSA.

DomKen -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 8:46:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer DomKEn you sure you want to stick with the idea that the rebel flag (correctly refered to a the Confederate Battle Flag or the Flag of the Army of Northern Virgina) was made up during the 60's? I think I can find enough historic evidence that the Red flag with blue cross and stars existed, was photgraphicly documented, artisticly documented, examples sitting in museums, etc, to make that claim look pretty uninformed. Now I will agree that during the 60's the racists adopted the use of the Confederate Battle Flag but "Made Up" is simply historicly incorrect. It is not the "Stars and Bars" a completely different flag, however it was integrated into the "Stainless Banner the second national flag of the CSA. The Confederate battle flag is square. One of the Confederate naval jacks is the right design and shape but a different color scheme. The "rebel" flag seen today is not a flag ever flown by any part of the CSA but was made up during the civil rights movement. Note that those states that actually incorporated the confederate battle flag did use the square shape not the rectangular one now seen so pervasively.

Archer -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 8:58:19 AM)
OK with the specifics stated we can agree. Comming at the subject from different angles had us at odds. A result of the medium used for communication.

domiguy -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 9:19:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer The problem is (and I come from a southern upbringing) that those who see the Confederate Battle Flag as a heritage thing have failed to protect it from being coopted by those racists who have been using it as a symbol of racisim. The shear numbers of KKK and other white supremicists who have been using it outweighs the ones who have maintained it as a matter of respect for the bravery of the soldiers. We those who would love to believe it is a symbol of bravery of the soldiers who in no small measure were non slave owners, and were fighting for in large part states rights vs federal government power, have unfortunatly waited and watched too long as the Confederate Battle Flag has been perverted. I'm afraidd it has been neglected too long to recover it. This was a rather remarkable post...Well done. To slaveluci...."White trash" might be a little strong....But it is not totally without all merit...I judge people as others do me....My posts can be funny, or at other times I'm sure people have found them to be offensive. However, when we run into people in this walk throught life....We make instant assumptions. I place value on my ability to read people...Ya know, your gut feelings....In my travels I have seen the confederate flag displayed in many different places and venues...It would depend on where I was as to how I would feel at that given moment....For instance, if someone were to transport me magically back in time and I was sitting at a Lynyrd Skynyrd concert I would expect to see it...Damn rednecks...Or today if someone dragged me Unconsentually to some country western or country music fest I would assume "the flag" might just make an appearance....I wouldn't wave it....But I do understand that others might choose to do so....It is possible that in these particular instances they may mean no harm by their actions other than to show support to their Southern roots...Sure.....But, whenever I see "it" different thoughts come to my mind. I cannot help but think less of someone who chooses to brandish a confederate flag in any setting.

Alumbrado -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 9:23:08 AM)
Well, I'm relieved to see that the thread has veered back on topic. 'Heritage' is indeed one reason to display an artifact from the past, and it carries more credibility if the folks involved have in fact done a little research into their heritage. Both the 'Rebel' flag and the Swastika have roots in less offensive applications. But if you see someone coming toward you with a mohawk, tank top, combat boots, and a Swastika tattoo, the odds of them being a Buddhist monk go way down. Likewise for the individual piling white robes, lumber and a gas can into the back of their Rebel flag bearing pickup truck... very few Civil War re-enactment groups are going to need that sort of gear. This is not to say that everyone displaying either symbol is a potentially violent racist... but it shoots a big hole in the 'anyone offended by an innocent piece of cloth is overly PC' theory. There are instances where the display is calculated to offend, and possibly even intimidate, and those reactions are grounded in reality. So back to the OP... if a school wishes to draw a line around material which has the demonstrated potential to disrupt the learning environment because of negative and offensive connotations, such as cross burnings on campus, Swastika displays, or even neo-Nazi rallies.... why is the flag of Jim Crow supposed to be exempt again? Because it is offensive to nobody? Or because those offended aren't considered as 'somebody'?

Sinergy -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 11:13:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave nb the question is about slavery NOT racial prejudice. Therein is the rub, seeks. One cannot fight the problem of racial prejudice by attacking a specific racial stereotype. Same game, different team jersey. Sinergy

Blaakmaan -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 11:40:49 AM)
It seems that what I wrote previously was mis-interpreted. I said: "White man, Swedish-American (I thought that was white!) woman. All the same to me!" I was not saying all whites are the same. I was saying that a white man and a Swedish-American woman are both considered white. Swedish-American is not a racial classification--it's a classification by nationality, as is, for example, German-American, or Irish-American. So far as I know, Swedes are white (not every Swede, but certainly the great majority of Swedes). So, for purposes of the discussion that we were having, I did not consider Swedish-American to be distinct from white. Whether one is a native of "Russia, Canada, England, Poland, Sweden, Germany, Switzerland, [or] Kosovo," you are considered white in America. As some people have noted, that was not always the case (someone referred to the very interesting book, How the Irish Became White, which examines the process by which the Irish, who were initially seen as "non-white," were eventually absorbed into the "white" racial category). However the history of immigrants to America from those various countries may have differed, persons from all of those countries are considered "white" now. So, there is no distinction to be made between Swedish-American and white. That's what I meant by "all the same to me".

Blaakmaan -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 11:44:11 AM)
I didn't call you an apologist for anything. If you see the word "apologist" in any of my posts referring to you, please point it out to me. I will decline your kind offer to apologize to you. Once is quite my limit...

Blaakmaan -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 11:46:54 AM)
In response to your question, seeksfemslave, I have to admit that I'm not well-versed on slavery in Africa today. So, my answer to your question would have to be that I'm more concerned with slavery as it was practiced in the United States.

Blaakmaan -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 11:51:21 AM)
I thought that's what I said. Since neither Maryland nor Kentucky were, at the time of the Emancipation Proclamation, "then in rebellion" against the government of the United States, the proclamation did not apply to either state, so it did not outlaw slavery in either state. Slavery was outlawed everywhere in the United States when the 13th Amendment to the Constitution was ratified.

Blaakmaan -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 11:55:06 AM)
One can fight racial prejudice and subjugation by refusing to tolerate its symbols. The Confederate flag is, to myself and lots of others, such a symbol. Which is why I and lots of others find it offensive.

luckydog1 -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 12:02:32 PM)
Blaakman you are saying the USA could not out law slavery untill after they defeated the OCnfederates, but they could have in Kentucky and Maryland, and they didn't. BTW die hard Confederets refer to the Civil war as "The War of Northern Aggression"

Alumbrado -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 12:08:01 PM)
"The Late W.O.N.A."

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