.BrownboycottsMugabe.

.BrownboycottsMugabe. (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

RCdc -> .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/20/2007 2:47:12 AM)
Prime Minister Gordon Brown has said he will boycott a summit of European and African leaders if Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe attends the event. Brown threatening Mugabe boycott

Aneirin -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/20/2007 3:27:51 AM)
Whether Mr Brown's intentions work or not, at least the apalling situation in Zimbabwe is now being brought into the focus of world leaders. I very much hope they act positively on the situation and bring to an end the suffering of the zimbabwean people.

LadyEllen -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/20/2007 6:19:54 AM)
"this is just more evidence of Britain's racist and imperialist meddling in our affairs" - R Mugabe (well, if he hasnt said that exactly, he's certainly said similar) I'd like to know why its even a possibility that this idiot would be at the meeting - given that there is an EU wide ban on Zimbabwean leadership types visiting the EU and the meeting is in Lisbon, Portugal, admitted to the EU quite some time ago. E

seeksfemslave -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/20/2007 6:56:39 AM)
Darcy: If you are old enough to remember Ian Smith and UDI which side would you have been on. ? I bet I can guess. Hasn't worked out too well has it lol

LadyEllen -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/21/2007 2:20:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Darcy: If you are old enough to remember Ian Smith and UDI which side would you have been on. ? I bet I can guess. Hasn't worked out too well has it lol Hi Seeks I remember it, vaguely from when I was a kid. I also remember meeting a German guy in my twenties, who had been in the paratroops (or something) in Rhodesia, fighting the war to keep whites in control. He was a complete and utter nazi, that I can tell you now - absolutely assured of the superiority of whites over blacks. The problem of Zimbabwe - and virtually every African nation that has at any time embraced democracy, is the apparent view held by those contesting elections that what is being chosen is a lifelong absolute monarch, rather than a president or prime minister who rules within the law for the benefit of the people and stands down after the allocated term. This is something which troubles me I must admit - and I dont know whether its something cultural or just that complete tosspots like to hang onto power and there's a lot of tosspots in Africa? Because, Africa as a whole and many of its constituent nations have more than enough resources to be wealthy, to educate and feed the people, run successfully and prosper. That this tends not to happen is something I wonder about - for all I ever see it seems is kings, presidents and the like rolling round in expensive cars and living the high life, whilst their people starve. My contention is, that were democracy as we understand it, able to exist in Africa, the whole situation could be reversed within a generation. So, if I'm to classify those running Zimbabwe and indeed many other African nations - I would put them in just the same box as my German acquaintance, with the only difference being that they are assured of their superiority over not only whites (in the case of Zimbabwe and soon I'm sure South Africa too), but also over those of tribes and families not of their own. I note that those of Mugabe's tribe and family comprise his supporters, whilst those not are the ones starving. Perhaps then its a tribal problem which afflicts Zimbabwe and many other African nations? The democratic process then becomes one in which being the largest or most powerful tribe is a determinant of victory, and once victory comes tribal loyalties and rivalries then determine policy including not giving any other tribe any opportunity to challenge? The blame could be laid at the feet of we former imperial powers perhaps, for drawing lines on maps (the same as with Yugoslavia). But its been decades since these countries gained independence now, they have had decades of assistance and still they do not prosper. Zimbabwe in particular has floundered - formerly exporting food, it now cannot feed itself. What can be done? E

meatcleaver -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/21/2007 2:50:50 AM)
LE, try the imposition of a unitary state on people who see themselves as different doesn't work, look at Belgium. Switzerland works because it is so loose a federation as to be made up of more or less independent states. Chezchoslavia didn't work, the USSR didn't work, Britain is coming apart now that the unitary state can't be imposed from the top. The US, Australia and New Zealand work because they are immigant nations, not indigenous nations. As for Canada, I'll let Canadaians speak for themselves but when I was in Quebec province, there weren't that many people who could or world speak English. There seemed more Anglophone people that could and would speak French though.

LadyEllen -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/21/2007 2:55:59 AM)
Hi MC So the solution then would be to split these nations into their constituent tribal groupings and let each tribal grouping run its own affairs do you think? whether as independent nations or as loose federations? The problem with that as I see it, is that even in a place like Swaziland or Lesotho, where such a situation exists - the problems continue. Albeit that in those two countries I believe, they have monarchs rather than elected presidents et al who hang on to power. E

Politesub53 -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/21/2007 2:58:05 AM)
Mugabe has the backing of the African Union. Who threatened to boycott the sumit in Lisbon if Zimbawe were not treated the same as the other African nations. As Portugal hold the presidency of the EU they wanted to ensure the sumit went ahead, hence the invite. Does anyone recall the farce that was the UN inviting Mugabe to Rome, against the wishes of the EU, for world food day a couple of years ago ? As for Mr Brown.... I dont recall him speaking out too much on this topic while he was chancellor. Colour me cynical but he is likely to hold an election next month. [;)]

meatcleaver -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/21/2007 3:01:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen The problem with that as I see it, is that even in a place like Swaziland or Lesotho, where such a situation exists - the problems continue. Albeit that in those two countries I believe, they have monarchs rather than elected presidents et al who hang on to power. E Imperialism destroyed African political culture and a new alien one was imposed on them. Before the EU, Europe hardly has a record of peace and cooperation for mutual benefit. It took two world wars and 70 million dead for Europeans to step back and and come to the startling conclusion that maybe cooperation might be a better way of doing things. Africa is going to have a tough future until it comes to the same startling realizations as Europe has.

seeksfemslave -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/21/2007 3:06:18 AM)
Well LadyE you have expressed very eloquently the "African" problem as I see it and have been banging on about over quite a number of posts. I thought you saw me as an unreconstructed racist. lol You ask what can be done? Havent a clue, possibly some cooperative interference from the UK, give our Public Schoolboys something better to do.I just know that willfully blind and selective PC thinking wont help one bit. Allowing African nations to address the Zimbabwe problem hasnt resulted in much has it.? I hope you know that a move to "redistribute" land in South Africa has been proposed. Could this be an acceleration down the slippery slope which has already started as the masses there sense that they are not having their dreams realised.

meatcleaver -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/21/2007 3:07:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 As for Mr Brown.... I dont recall him speaking out too much on this topic while he was chancellor. Colour me cynical but he is likely to hold an election next month. [;)] Same thought. I don't recall Brown saying much as all while he was chancellor apart from a lot of waffle. He'll call an election when he can win, the temptation has to be to go early. I wonder what happened to his promise of a referendum on the EU treaty?

LadyEllen -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/21/2007 3:07:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Imperialism destroyed African political culture and a new alien one was imposed on them. Before the EU, Europe hardly has a record of peace and cooperation for mutual benefit. It took two world wars and 70 million dead for Europeans to step back and and come to the startling conclusion that maybe cooperation might be a better way of doing things. Africa is going to have a tough future until it comes to the same startling realizations as Europe has. Reasonable points MC. But - controversy coming...... given that we'd like them to avoid the kind of horrors we suffered, is there then not a case to be made for our "imperial meddling" to continue in the form of interventions to assist such a realisation? would this not be a good investment for us, in that intervention would if done correctly, assist Africa out of its problems and into prosperity - meaning no need, or much less need for our "imperial meddling" in term of aid? Or do they have to suffer the same results as we and get there themselves? And in such circumstances, is there not a case for us to make independence truly what it means and not supply aid? E

LadyEllen -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/21/2007 3:12:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 As for Mr Brown.... I dont recall him speaking out too much on this topic while he was chancellor. Colour me cynical but he is likely to hold an election next month. [;)] Same thought. I don't recall Brown saying much as all while he was chancellor apart from a lot of waffle. He'll call an election when he can win, the temptation has to be to go early. I wonder what happened to his promise of a referendum on the EU treaty? I dont think thats entirely fair to be honest - he was chancellor, not prime minister, foreign & commonwealth secretary or overseas development secretary. All of the latter three made the views of the former government clear and the responsibility to do so lay with those three functions. Brown certainly said a lot about Africa and worked a lot towards debt relief et al on its behalf - which fell more into his brief. The election is in October by the way. Apparently on the Treaty - there's no Treaty so no need for a referendum now; albeit that we're getting it by the back door, in small bits so we hopefully wont notice. Might be nice to know what we're getting though. E

meatcleaver -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/21/2007 3:13:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave I hope you know that a move to "redistribute" land in South Africa has been proposed. Could this be an acceleration down the slippery slope which has already started as the masses there sense that they are not having their dreams realised. There is nothing wrong in principle with land redistribution in South Africa, it is how they decide to do it and whether they distroy the agricultural industry in the process. Black people being in control is the future of Africa. Not all Africa is a complete wasteland. We have to remeber most African states have only been independent for a couple of generations and most have been exploited by outside forces in that time. Look towards western corporations as the guilty party.

meatcleaver -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/21/2007 3:17:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Reasonable points MC. But - controversy coming...... given that we'd like them to avoid the kind of horrors we suffered, is there then not a case to be made for our "imperial meddling" to continue in the form of interventions to assist such a realisation? would this not be a good investment for us, in that intervention would if done correctly, assist Africa out of its problems and into prosperity - meaning no need, or much less need for our "imperial meddling" in term of aid? Or do they have to suffer the same results as we and get there themselves? And in such circumstances, is there not a case for us to make independence truly what it means and not supply aid? E You can't save people from themselves, outsiders can only help take care of the victims. Interventions tend to end up in disaster. I'm trying to think of an intervention that had positive results. Vietnam in Cambodia maybe?

LadyEllen -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/21/2007 3:19:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Well LadyE you have expressed very eloquently the "African" problem as I see it and have been banging on about over quite a number of posts. I thought you saw me as an unreconstructed racist. lol You ask what can be done? Havent a clue, possibly some cooperative interference from the UK, give our Public Schoolboys something better to do.I just know that willfully blind and selective PC thinking wont help one bit. Allowing African nations to address the Zimbabwe problem hasnt resulted in much has it.? I hope you know that a move to "redistribute" land in South Africa has been proposed. Could this be an acceleration down the slippery slope which has already started as the masses there sense that they are not having their dreams realised. I class you more as a speaker for popular but unspoken opinion Seeks, far from PC and sometimes I think deliberately insensitive, sometimes valuable and sometimes not! I dont believe the problem is anything to do with race though; its about culture is what my feeling tells me. E

seeksfemslave -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/21/2007 3:21:19 AM)
"Comeoffit" Meatcleaver, your usual stance of seeing everything wrong in say Europe and to search by default for excuses for some of the most vicious corrupt regimes ever to disgrace the face of the Earth.

LadyEllen -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/21/2007 3:31:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver There is nothing wrong in principle with land redistribution in South Africa, it is how they decide to do it and whether they distroy the agricultural industry in the process. Black people being in control is the future of Africa. Not all Africa is a complete wasteland. We have to remeber most African states have only been independent for a couple of generations and most have been exploited by outside forces in that time. Look towards western corporations as the guilty party. hmmm. You see this is where I have a problem; the white settlers in S Africa have been there for generations. The farms they work, were savannah and prairie when their ancestors arrived to settle. If there is a principle which requires the handing of these farms to those natives who preceded the settlers, the presumably the same principle must apply to the US, Canada, Australia and so on? There is no difference whatever - apart from as I understand it, the S African white settlers did not wipe out the natives. Above all, the white settlers are as much African after all this time as their black compatriots so it is entirely unfair and unreasonable that they be dispossessed purely on the basis of their ethnicity - this smacks not of "fair redistribution" but of plain, out and out racism. I wonder, whether redistribution is thought such a good idea for South Africa but not elsewhere simply because of white guilt over how African peoples were treated elsewhere by whites? But I agree with you about western corporations (and now the Chinese too). E

LadyEllen -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/21/2007 3:33:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver You can't save people from themselves, outsiders can only help take care of the victims. Interventions tend to end up in disaster. I'm trying to think of an intervention that had positive results. Vietnam in Cambodia maybe? This is my thought too - it will only ever work out if they realise it themselves. Yet I still think, that depending on how its done (ie not paratroops, tanks, shock and awe etc) that we can help in the process and mitigate the otherwise dire consequences they'd have to go through (and are going through now and have been through some of already). Edited to add - our intervention must be in a form which does NOT refer back to colonial ideas. It must be in the form of black and white being equal partners in getting things on track. And this requires also a reverse of anti-white feeling on the part of black Africans. Racism in all its forms is ridiculous and simply not helpful. E edited again! not inserting NOT where one ought is a pain in the neck!

seeksfemslave -> RE: .BrownboycottsMugabe. (9/21/2007 3:35:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Well LadyE you have expressed very eloquently the "African" problem as I see it and have been banging on about over quite a number of posts. I thought you saw me as an unreconstructed racist. lol I class you more as a speaker for popular but unspoken opinion Seeks, far from PC and sometimes I think deliberately insensitive, sometimes valuable and sometimes not! I dont believe the problem is anything to do with race though; its about culture is what my feeling tells me. E How do you seperate the two then? Were you viewing spaceship Earth from spaceship Utopia would you not see clearly identifiable patterns across the racial divides. ? Why did say Europe climb the scientific intellectual and economic peaks and Africa didn't.?

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875