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RE: Officer on leave over stun gun - 9/21/2007 5:56:32 AM   
ChicagoSwitchMal


Posts: 417
Joined: 9/9/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal

are you suggesting that only cops are allowed to form opinions on this subject?


No, IIRC, that would be you linking experience with the weight given to opinions.

Anything to add to the points raised?


Actually my point has consistently been that people are entitled to their opinion regardless of their direct experience. If there's a 'link' as you suggest - that's it.

Also equating my statement that tazers are over used does not imply that I think cops have the magical ability for the 'vulcan pinch'. Associating my opinion with a beleife that cops have chuck norris type abilities is a misrepresentation of what I said.

What is a misrepresentation of reality is your beliefe that police are limited to sticks or bullets when words don't work and that cops should go from words to tazers. Look at the video. the cop wasn't treatened. At one point he is sarcasticly walking her like a dog with a smug look on his face. He wasn't protecting anything other than his ego.

Spectators are watching the whole thing. I think if they felt threatened they would have left the area. Or do you think they were so terrified by this woman they couldn't move and were thankful for this brave officer's use of the tazer?

Cops wrestle people to the ground all the time. This fat ass was too lazy. That would almost be like work!  

< Message edited by ChicagoSwitchMal -- 9/21/2007 5:58:24 AM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: Officer on leave over stun gun - 9/21/2007 6:03:48 AM   
ChicagoSwitchMal


Posts: 417
Joined: 9/9/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Casie

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal

She had something coming to her, but all this?

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/09/20/sinkovich.woman.tasered.wytv


Oh my, the woman was resisting arrest I will not debate that. And she should have been arrested. However, I didn't even see the reason to taz her in the first place. Drunken or not the officer could have arrested her. Anyone here ever watch cops geez. Almost everynight you can see them take down a grown man who resisting arrest!!If he tazed her once I may be able to let it go. but he tazed her over and over again. Not to mention him threatening her over and over again. Police brutality is a touchy subject for me right now as man (Iraq war vetern) in my small town was shot and killed AFTER dropping his weapon, and was in the process of putting his hands behind his head.



I couldn't agree more. there were far better ways to handle this. She could have been subdued without using a tazer.

(in reply to Casie)
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RE: Officer on leave over stun gun - 9/21/2007 6:17:52 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

What is a misrepresentation of reality is your beliefe that police are limited to sticks or bullets when words don't work and that cops should go from words to tazers.


The reality is called the 'use of force continuum' by anyone who has a clue as to what they are talking about... look it up, and get back to me when you want to have a factual discussion instead of jumping to erroneous conclusions....again.

(in reply to ChicagoSwitchMal)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Officer on leave over stun gun - 9/21/2007 6:23:50 AM   
ChicagoSwitchMal


Posts: 417
Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline 		I know what the force continuum is. And it goes both UP and DOWN. Let's say every taser shot was justified before she was in the car. Please tell me what part of force continuum justifies tasering her while handcuffed in a squad car where she couldnt hurt anyone. "You're destroying MY cruiser" he says. Actually it's not 'his' cruiser.

Now get back to me when you have a clue.  Get back to me when you can explain how a handcuffed woman in a squad car she can't get out of is a threat to anyone.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: Officer on leave over stun gun - 9/21/2007 6:27:12 AM   
ChicagoSwitchMal


Posts: 417
Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline 		also what erroneous conclusion is implied by saying the I think tasers are overused and I think this is an example of it?

(in reply to ChicagoSwitchMal)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Officer on leave over stun gun - 9/21/2007 6:35:25 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Whatever your 'force continuum' is, it clearly has nothing to do with law enforcement use of force policy and legal precedent.
 
I never said that anyone should go directly from words to a Tazer, that is your fiction, and directly the opposite of what I did say about the Tazer being LTL, and a step down from firearms. (Down being the only possible direction from deadly force).

I'll take your repeated deceptions as a rejection of  my requests to address the points made and engage in a factual discussion, and I'll not waste your time with any further attempts to wean you from the glass teat..



(in reply to ChicagoSwitchMal)
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RE: Officer on leave over stun gun - 9/21/2007 7:00:11 AM   
InfernoMDM


Posts: 51
Joined: 3/20/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal

sjacket - Then allow me to respectfully say that preempting your opinion with

"I'm guessing you have never been involved in a fight or struggle with someone who was drunk or high and being violent and uncooperative."

has the appearance of establishing crediblity over my opinion while your own experiences don't sugest a more valid insight. .

I think we all have enough experience with drunks and violence to be able to from an opinion.

Peace



It looks like to me this guy has been a bouncer and probably has a very indepth knowledge of drunks.  I did security myself, which in this state constitutes Law Enforcment on a small piece of property.  The few drunks I dealt with the worst ones that did the most damage to myself and friends working generally ended up being the women.  They tend to be far more aggressive when smashed out of there head, or weepy.

Anyways we see this lady kicking at the cruiser window, I think she probably was more violent then the small clips of video we saw.

As for the 150 deaths by tazers, I could see that happening, but I am more interested in "150 deaths from tazers", or is it "150 deaths from police use of tazers".  I am wondering if its the same fuzzy math the brady campaign has used.

(in reply to ChicagoSwitchMal)
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RE: Officer on leave over stun gun - 9/21/2007 7:07:06 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Meh. If you need to reach for a Tazer ( or Gun ) YOU HAVE FAILED TO MAINTAIN ORDER, and shouldn't be a Cop, as your ability to learn from your training ( OR YOUR TRAINING ITSELF ) is faulty, and you are therefore A RISK TO THE PUBLIC, as your reactions dangerously unpredictible.

Me, I would first criticize the TRAINING given, as being wholly inappropriate, and that traces back to the Daryl Gates bullshit with militarizing the Police Department.

Amadou Diallo is perhaps the poster child for this sad state of affairs.



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(in reply to InfernoMDM)
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RE: Officer on leave over stun gun - 9/21/2007 7:31:59 AM   
Bella1965


Posts: 285
Joined: 12/12/2006
From: NYC
Status: offline 		G'morning all:


(Fast Reply)

I've watched the video. I've read the thread. I'm in law enforcement. I'm dismayed at the officer's blatant misuse of a defensive weapon. I'm not sure if mace or pepper spray are available to police in that city/state but I think that would have been a less traumatic option to employ. There's no wind blowing from what I can see on the video. Blowback would have been minimal, if at all. There's a progression of force that must be applied in taking down a perpetrator. I believe he missed one. (Dry tone.)

Once a perpetrator is in handcuffs (especially seated in a patrol car), officers are only allowed to use necessary force to keep said individual from harming themselves or the officers involved. Property is an incidental. Then again, I doubt the officer in question is truly worried about his safety since his vest isn't on.

Don't you all understand? He didn't want to get his hands dirty or break a nail. (Sarcasm.)


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...





Bella

_____________________________

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(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Officer on leave over stun gun - 9/24/2007 12:56:15 PM   
soultoshare


Posts: 519
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline 		As I stated on the UF thread....I was a cop long before tasers were even thought of, and when stun guns were still illegal.  I've dealt with drunks, both male and female, and yes, the female ones tend to be more agressive, but can't tolerate physical pain.....a simple wrist hold on them gets them going in the right direction, I know this first hand.  It also works on big drunk males, again, I know this first hand.  No, I've never shot anyone, I've drawn down 4 times in my entire time as a cop, all justified, and I've been shot AT four times, so I'm really pretty aware of the pucker factor.  As a dispatcher, I've had cops, all friends, caught in gun battles, I had one such subject gun down three officers, listening to the shots he fired at them on the phone, killing two of them.  I am well aware of the risks that officers take daily.  They buried a cop today in Phoenix that stopped a guy for jaywalking and for that, he got shot in the head....left a wife and two small kids.

That said, that officer was defnitely wrong  in the use of the taser.  As stated, he used it because he could.  He reportedly tased her until she was unconscious, and I could tell by the reactions of the crowd around that what he was doing was pretty severe.  The bastard deserves to lose his job, and I hope he does.  Cop car windows get kicked out lots of times...they file charges on the subject who did it....the solution for that was a simple hog tie......face down in the back seat of the car.  He could have gained control of her in any number of ways, but my guess is that he wasn't trained in them.  Worst case scenario, he could have grabbed her by the hair, mashed her down against the trunk of the car and cuffed her.  Tasers have made officers lazy......they no longer use the "milder" strategies of controlling a person that us "old-timers" did.  (Not that I'm old or anything!)  All they do is actually agitate the person, and it continues to escalate from there. 

And to others who call cops "pigs"......leave it alone.  It's funny that those you castigate and belittle are the first ones you call for help.  We've heard the names, we've heard all the donut jokes......and we'll still be there for an unfogiving public.  And before you spout "I'm a taxpayer!  I pay your salary!", remember one thing....I pay taxes too....does that make me self-employed????  And one more thing....I want a RAISE!!!!!!

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It's about learning to dance in the rain.



(in reply to Bella1965)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Officer on leave over stun gun - 9/24/2007 1:35:40 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: InfernoMDM

She is defiantly on something probably besides alcohol.  She is seen resisting several times in a edited video.  She is being aggressive and beligernt, and attempting to destroy property.  I think she got everything she deserved for being a asshat with a cop.  The only thing this guy did was tell her repeatedly to stop, instead of useing physical violance to subdue a suspect, which has resulted in far more injuries to drunk, intoxicated people.


So it's ok for a man to non-consentually torture a woman until she passes out? I saw that video, along with an interview with a 15 year old AUTISTIC  who had been tazed. Tazer use in schools has also been publicized and I'm afraid for my son's life. He's severely autistic, unable to speak, and prone to life threatening seizures. His condition also causes him to have autistic fits. He can't help it and doesn't know any better. But the fact that he has them means he's in more danger of being tazed than normal children. So far, my son has been hospitalized 3 times from seizures that were so severe he was unable to breathe on his own for hours. I shudder to think what electrical currents from a tazer would do to him.

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(in reply to InfernoMDM)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Officer on leave over stun gun - 9/24/2007 2:35:00 PM   
lazarus1983


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/25/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Meh. If you need to reach for a Tazer ( or Gun ) YOU HAVE FAILED TO MAINTAIN ORDER, and shouldn't be a Cop, as your ability to learn from your training ( OR YOUR TRAINING ITSELF ) is faulty, and you are therefore A RISK TO THE PUBLIC, as your reactions dangerously unpredictible.

Me, I would first criticize the TRAINING given, as being wholly inappropriate, and that traces back to the Daryl Gates bullshit with militarizing the Police Department.

Amadou Diallo is perhaps the poster child for this sad state of affairs.




So when a person fails to yield to words, it is the cop's fault? When a person makes a choice not to listen to a policeman, it is automatically the policeman's fault?

That's good to know. Now I can take no responsibility for my actions, and blame my actions, blame my choosing those actions, completely on the police.

"It's not my fault that I chose not to listen when a cop told me to do something! Nope, I am free of all responsibility! The cop is 100% at fault!"

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Officer on leave over stun gun - 9/24/2007 4:01:07 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sjacket

I'm guessing you have never been involved in a fight or struggle with someone who was drunk or high and being violent and uncooperative.  It is HIS JOB to attempt to control the situation.  All she had to do was sit quietly in the back of the cruiser.  Before that all she had to do was comply with his commands.  I am sure she was causing a disturbance before the cop arrived since someone had called the police.  No, she is not a body builder, but she could still have easily done harm to the cop or others around her (and herself) if she was allowed to continue acting like a loud, disruptive, drunken ass. 



I have to agree with this post.  Cops go out day in and day out risking their lives to do a job which is difficult and dangerous.  How many other people had this cop seen that one day who had been threatening, drunk, abusive, etc.  This is simply one day in this man's life.

I am not saying that abusive cops do not happen, and I am not saying I support a cop tasering people indiscriminately, but he has a difficult job to do.  Had he searched her?  Had he checked her for weapons?  Was she interfering with him in the performance of his duties?  Was she treatening him?  Did he ask her to sit down and shut the fuck up and stop screaming at him?

I dont know all the details, and neither do the rest of you, but the cop is forced to make a choice in a high-adrenalin situation, and they do not always make the best choices.  Given a choice between giving some psycho person the benefit of the doubt and going home in a body bag, or using a non-lethal means of suppressing an abusive and threatening person, I give him kudos for doing the latter.  As all of you probably know, he could have pulled out a gun and given her a third eye as well.

Sinergy

p.s. popeye, I have a polycarbonate PR-24 (police issue side handle baton) and I imagine if I hit you with it after years of training you would be damaged a lot worse than she was by a tazer.  If I hit you in the head or neck you would probably end up dead.  Saying that a billy club is a lot safer is incorrect.

_____________________________

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(in reply to sjacket)
Profile   Post #: 33
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