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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I was told it was libidinous (grammer nazis, don't you know)

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ORIGINAL: Angrylibrarian
without a submissives overt weakness (and in some cases feminization)

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ORIGINAL: SweetDommes
Submissive does NOT equal weak, or lesser in any way.

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ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
It does, however, mean below (as in submarine or subway). To place oneself below another can indeed be seen as a sign of weakness, espcially in a pack like society.

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ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

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ORIGINAL: Angrylibrarian
without a submissives overt weakness (and in some cases feminization)

Submissives do not automatically have an "overt weakness." Submissive does NOT equal weak, or lesser in any way.

didnt meant to imply they do - Angry

The problem is that too many people see it how you do, (No I don't) including most submissives that we've talked to over the last few years. (Whose we?) They think that just because they have submissive urges that it makes them weaker, or less of a person/man - and it's just not true. It takes a great deal of personal strength to admit, not only to themselves, but to others, that they are submissive and willing to go for what they want, so how does that make them weak in any way? I'm not talking about those who feel themselves worthless so they must be submissive because that absolves them of personal responsibility (and there are plenty of of those). (Guess thats what Im talking about then)
Personally, some of the strongest people I know are submissives - both male and female. And of course, I'm not talking physical strength, but strength of personality - a sense of knowing exactly who and what they are. Unfortunately, they are not all compatable with us - but knowing that and being able to accept it is part of that personal strength that I'm talking about. They know who they are and what they are looking for - and are willing to accept nothing less, even if it means continuing to look. There is absolutely nothing "weak" about that.

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ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

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ORIGINAL: Angrylibrarian
without a submissives overt weakness (and in some cases feminization)

Submissives do not automatically have an "overt weakness." Submissive does NOT equal weak, or lesser in any way. The problem is that too many people see it how you do, including most submissives that we've talked to over the last few years. They think that just because they have submissive urges that it makes them weaker, or less of a person/man - and it's just not true. It takes a great deal of personal strength to admit, not only to themselves, but to others, that they are submissive and willing to go for what they want, so how does that make them weak in any way? I'm not talking about those who feel themselves worthless so they must be submissive because that absolves them of personal responsibility (and there are plenty of of those).

Personally, some of the strongest people I know are submissives - both male and female. And of course, I'm not talking physical strength, but strength of personality - a sense of knowing exactly who and what they are. Unfortunately, they are not all compatable with us - but knowing that and being able to accept it is part of that personal strength that I'm talking about. They know who they are and what they are looking for - and are willing to accept nothing less, even if it means continuing to look. There is absolutely nothing "weak" about that.

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I think a great deal of the problem is based on Femdom porn. Men have an ideal in their head, based on what they have read and seen in porn, of "how it is supposed to be." At the same time, I think women who are attracted to dominance develop and explore their tendencies in a realistic way and are searching for something beyond what the porn portrays.

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Men get programmed to think that they should behave in that ultra submissive worm mode and that the woman should behave in accordance to the femdom persona.

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I'd like to think that if they made "femdom porn" for women it would feature a confident, sensual woman and a self confident man she seduces and brings into submission and you see it as an erotic transformation and actually see that there *was* in fact a power exchange.

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Men need to be reprogrammed.

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Some men, however, will never really click with that; they really want the fetish, the fantasy, *and* the problem is that what flips their switch *is* to behave like that whining, worthless worm -- out of the gate.

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But only in cases where a guy sees pros for so long, he is used to that kind of scene and behavior and sees it as the ideal.

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Now, what makes it even more complicated, in my opinion, is that "new" femdoms who are learning and exploring come into it, and they see these cliche femdom behaviors online (pro ads, or web sites, or money-hunters with fake profiles) and think that's what they are supposed to "do" to attract a submissive partner so they can begin to explore in real life.

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And when it comes to trying to get an open minded vanilla woman interested, those cliches are a sure-fire way to get her turned off.

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ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I think a great deal of the problem is based on Femdom porn. Men have an ideal in their head, based on what they have read and seen in porn, of "how it is supposed to be." At the same time, I think women who are attracted to dominance develop and explore their tendencies in a realistic way and are searching for something beyond what the porn portrays.

Or, perhaps, that porn comes out of the actual desires of submissive men. Do you think they would produce the stuff if people weren't buying it?

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Men get programmed to think that they should behave in that ultra submissive worm mode and that the woman should behave in accordance to the femdom persona.

Or, perhaps, some men actually like to behave in that ultra submissive worm mode and want a woman that behaves in accordance to the femdom persona.

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I'd like to think that if they made "femdom porn" for women it would feature a confident, sensual woman and a self confident man she seduces and brings into submission and you see it as an erotic transformation and actually see that there *was* in fact a power exchange.

Women don't buy a lot of porn, so the odds of seeing that are pretty small.

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Men need to be reprogrammed.

Ummm...ok...good luck with that.

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Some men, however, will never really click with that; they really want the fetish, the fantasy, *and* the problem is that what flips their switch *is* to behave like that whining, worthless worm -- out of the gate.

How dare they want some silly fantasy...who are they to have their own kinks and desires??? Fetish??? Fantasy??? WTF???

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But only in cases where a guy sees pros for so long, he is used to that kind of scene and behavior and sees it as the ideal.

Or, perhaps, for him it is the ideal.

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Now, what makes it even more complicated, in my opinion, is that "new" femdoms who are learning and exploring come into it, and they see these cliche femdom behaviors online (pro ads, or web sites, or money-hunters with fake profiles) and think that's what they are supposed to "do" to attract a submissive partner so they can begin to explore in real life.

Or, perhaps, that is what they enjoy doing.

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And when it comes to trying to get an open minded vanilla woman interested, those cliches are a sure-fire way to get her turned off.

Yeah...revealing polyamorous desires will have much the same effect. That doesn't mean they are wrong or silly or untenable.

Taggard

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha
If a man wants to submit to a real woman who enjoys domination, he has to adjust his expectations.

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Most femdoms don't like catering to a man's fantasies.

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As for changing a sub's unrealistic expectations - it works well, if they want the real thing. And as for subs introducing it to vanilla wives minus the cheesy stereotypes -- I've seen great success there when they changed their approach.

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If he's looking for what the ideal is (as defined by men, for men) he can always go see a pro.

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While I agree in generaly with what you wrote, I think that male submissive do indeed often come off weak when they try to place themselves below a female dominant. I think this does indeed turn many female dominants off.

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ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty



In reality, I think most female domiants want a male slave, not a male submisives. Slaves do not have to place themselves below anyone...

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ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

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While I agree in generaly with what you wrote, I think that male submissive do indeed often come off weak when they try to place themselves below a female dominant. I think this does indeed turn many female dominants off.

Really? I think those dominant females need to come out more often and watch guys like me play intramural league B ball - Because I'm as mean as Charles Barkley. *wink*

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ORIGINAL: Iamcurious

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ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty



In reality, I think most female domiants want a male slave, not a male submisives. Slaves do not have to place themselves below anyone...

i dont completely understand what u say here, taggard...would u mind elaborating please?...

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ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger
Yanno...I get the distinct feeling that you think deep down, all women want to be dominated, no mater what the disposition.