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RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 12:44:14 PM

gypsygrl

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For me, secure attachment (as opposed to insecure attachment) allows me to feel/express a greater range of emotions (including suffering and pain). I experience it as liberating rather than limiting. I have a history of avoiding attachments as a way of protecting myself from suffering and other bad feelings but, unfortunately, I was also protecting myself from pleasure and other good feelings. Its a strategy that leads nowhere, in my mind.

When I started actively exploring masochism, it involved a somewhat self-conscious choice to embrace pain et al, as a way of allowing myself not just pleasure, but a whole range of emotions.

The opposite of attachment is detachment which is a form of indifference. I might be able to do more in a state of detachment but I feel less and, almost by definition, have little invested in what I'm doing, so my motivation wanes. Because I have no emotional realationship to what I'm doing, I don't get much out of it save, perhaps, the cold satisfaction derived from success.

Other thoughts:

I don't equate attachment and love. Love often follows from secure attachment, and secure attachment is a necessary, but not sufficient, precondition for love. But other things can follow too.

I don't take many risks with people I'm not attached to, so don't get much out of playing with them. I keep my cards too close to my chest so they got nothing to work with. And, if I don't sense that they're attached to me, I'm likely to get scared. In the absense of attachment, whats to prevent them from damaging me in the pursuit of their sadism?

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Post #: 41

RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 1:44:54 PM

ocilla

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I have not read through all the pages of this post but...the first couple pages have helped me get my head around my own personal situation. I've been trying to get clear on it myself - so here are my thoughts in relation to my expereince of late. And putting this here is something of an act of vulnerability in and of itself - just so folks are aware.

I am fairly new to wiitwd - I've been exploring for about a year. And vanilla-wise I have been happily single or unattached for many years. Part of my desire to stay unattached for the most part (only had relationships with an agreed upon built in expiration date of sorts) was because I just did not feel up to the inherent challenges and vulnerabilities that come with attachment. And to be honest even the relationships with "expiration dates" still required some work and vulnerability. But at some point last year I recognized that I was ready to be more vulnerable and put more energy into a relationship and that I am at a time in life when a more consistent and deeper attachment makes a whole lotta sense. At 43 years I want to take on the self exploration that comes with deep commitment with another and challenge myself to grow...

Now the dilemma has come in me discovering this lifestyle and my affinity for it and needing to explore and learn my likes dislikes and to gathering skills.

So my first play partner has been a fella that I chose specifically because I felt like we were not a good long term match but that we were at the same level of exploration and literally safe. So here is where what Tammyjo mentions about how we become attached whether we admit it or not comes in to play. He was eager to attach after our first meet and I put a firm, firm boundary up. I made sure a level of detachment was in place at all times. For instance I set a rule that he was not to contact me - that I would contact him.

So we've explored and played for about 6 months. Shared stories, encouraged each other to meet and play with others to try specific experiences etc, and as I am a good researcher and the dominant I did a lot of research, hooking us up with the local dungeon, finding mentors and like minded folks in the community for us to meet and eventually I was invited to private domme parties. As the parties did not work out for my schedule I introduced my play buddy to the host with a recommendation that he be allowed to be a demo bottom. Well he went to that party about a month ago and now he is gone. He pretty much traded my ass in and I have to say...it stings pretty darn hot.

At the dungeon last weekend there he was tethered and devoted to the power Domme's and there I was without my buddy or my play partner feeling a bit like a chump. I might as well have been invisible. I found it embarrassing and I also missed the companionship and having an escort. So it is a bit of painful experience but I've learned that casual play does not work for me at this time. TI have to go ahead and take the leap and seek a sub that is more viable, for me in particular, in terms of an emotional, loyal and temperament match. And then I have to be intentional and conscious about the inevitable attachment rather than trying to avoid it. I set myself up for the situation that has occurred with my first play partner by not being willing to wade into the power dynamic.

Sooo, is attachment a limitation? of course. Is attachment liberating? in some ways. Can it be avoided? if you can numb certain parts of yourself perhaps you won't feel it but an attachment occur rs no mater what - imo.

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Post #: 42

RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 2:48:35 PM

breatheasone

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I think attachment is freeing personally....because theres a comfort level there.

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Post #: 43

RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 3:05:58 PM

BoiJen

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"There's just somethings that you wanna do but you won't do to your own toys."

I heard this once at a party. I get a lot of "But you're small...I don't wanna hurt you in a 'bad' way."

as a masochist...I don't care....hurt me hurt me hurt me...whatever....

as a sadist...if you don't want me to hurt you don't come near me...anybody in arms reach is a target

so am I limited by attchment? no...and I limited by non-attachment...yeah, She says so.

(in reply to breatheasone)

Post #: 44

RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 3:07:54 PM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

I think attachment is freeing personally....because theres a comfort level there.

Bondage has Limitation too - and yet like attachment is personal freedom.
Freedom in restraint - it one of those yummy contradictions that without it - you wouldn't be able to do certain things. So in itself, it is just another way to progress.
Definate comfort level.

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 9/26/2007 3:16:14 PM >

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Post #: 45

RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 3:11:58 PM

breatheasone

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When my kids were teens, and would have a bad day they would be shitty little brats sometimes...to ME...but not to their friends...or their grandmother......why?....because I was SAFE...they knew they had that freedom...freedom to abuse if you wanna call it that...because they were comfortable with me...secure in me.If this is a bad analogy I'm sorry...

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Post #: 46

RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 3:29:24 PM

DiurnalVampire

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The specific quote it was in reference to on my thread was that attachment i limitation becasue Angel is the first pet I have ever been this attached to, and yet also as limited with.
I dont think the response made any sense, unless I misunderstand. My attachment isnt the limitation. The things he and I enjoy together, and his lack of a masochistic side are the limitations. I am free to seek someone out who DOES have a masochistic side, I am just not finding anyone I really have an interest in playing with.

In and of itself attachment can be self imposed limitation, if it does in fact create limits. My attachment to Angel isnt a limit for me at all.

But maybe I missed something.

DV

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Post #: 47

RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 3:52:16 PM

beargonewild

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I have the thought and belief that having that attachement gives me a greater freedom to surpass any limitaions I'd have with someone I'm not attched to emotionally. With the emotional attachement I give to my partner/dom, I have reached a level of trust to where I am able to allow myself to stretch my own limitaions and also gives me the drive to want to push my boundaries.

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(in reply to DiurnalVampire)

Post #: 48

RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 3:56:43 PM

LATEXBABY64

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quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

I think there are too many aspects in such a simple statement(s) that have been made.

Personally love frees up both me and my Master because we know the other person is not going to run if something does not go perfectly or other problems come into play kink, power or regular old relationship related.

Being attached to someone does equate suffering because you now have taken all their problems and issues and lump them in with your own, but you also get to share yours. Life is suffering just having to deal with others makes it more out front of our minds. It is not the root of suffering.

To be honest I find the slant attachment causes lack of freedom to be a theoretical debate that gets into people quoting definitions of what a slave is in the dictionary. To each there own and certainly for casual play I can see this point quite well, but when translated to people in a relationship and expecting them to be with you throughout the good and bad times, that is going into dream like analysis.

this goes a long with a fight or flight thingy I love what you said it is on the mark on true power exchange dynamic for a long term ds relationship

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 49

RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 3:57:35 PM

ExSteelAgain

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Sure commitment means you are going to feel much more. Commitment does not limit play; it allows you to have play that is much more intense because there is lots of trust. But, it also means you can be hurt more.

I will always remind a partner we can keep things on a level where there are no commitments. I have literally met a guy coming to a sub’s house as I was leaving and that didn’t bother me in the least because it was a casual relationship. Once, I am involved, committed and trusting I’m much more prone to take offense at disrespectful behavior.

I’m a Dom, and trust me, I can feel hurt when I am disrespected. So I don’t think being close to someone limits play in any way, but it does add responsibility. It makes play more intense and better when I can touch her face, kiss her and understand her emotions as I whip her harder than she has ever been whipped.

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Post #: 50

RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 4:45:10 PM

feastie

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If attachment is a limitation ...

Then everything in life is a limitation. If you only choose foods you like (are attached to), then you may lose out on the benefits of others. If you only choose to wear clothes you like, you have limited yourself to avoiding something that may be very becoming on you. If you prefer blondes, you may miss out on the perfect person for you because s/he isn't blonde.

This list can go on and on and on. Any choice negates another choice and provides a limitation.

So, the real question is ... which limitation do you prefer? Love, affection, companionship? Or perpetual separateness? Being "with" someone, but not really.

A little food for thought ...in studies of infants who were held and received love and bonded with their families and infants that were not held, loved or bonded with anyone ... those which did not bond, were not loved or held did not thrive and some died without apparent medical reason. The ones that bonded, etc., did thrive.

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Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

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RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 5:28:03 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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It's who I am- so it is as freeing and as limiting as I am.

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RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 5:36:29 PM

RRafe

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Balanced attachments are good. Imbalanced ones can be hell.

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RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 5:40:16 PM

mmb1

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even putting attachment and limitation in the same sentence makes me nervous........lol they are so opposite.

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RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 6:20:49 PM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

The specific quote it was in reference to on my thread was that attachment i limitation becasue Angel is the first pet I have ever been this attached to, and yet also as limited with.
I dont think the response made any sense, unless I misunderstand. My attachment isnt the limitation. The things he and I enjoy together, and his lack of a masochistic side are the limitations. I am free to seek someone out who DOES have a masochistic side, I am just not finding anyone I really have an interest in playing with.

In and of itself attachment can be self imposed limitation, if it does in fact create limits. My attachment to Angel isnt a limit for me at all.

But maybe I missed something.

DV

As I've made clear...I disagree with the statement that "Attachment is Limitation" in terms of wiitid with my significant others in the D/s hierarchy and in the realm of BDSM play. I can't speak for the author of that statement (though I think I might invite him to come over to this thread and respond in a more clarifying fashion what he means by his statement) but I took it to mean that emotional attachment leads some to not hurt their submissives during play in the way they might hurt someone they are not emotionally attached to because...as someone else put it..."I can't hurt you...I love you too much (or some other emotional statement)" and that for some, the emotional attachment comes into play in a way such that the submissive can wind her dominant around her finger in certain aspects of the D/s dynamic so that certain, unpleasant things can be avoided or that the dominant can wind the submissive around his finger in such a manner that certain, unpleasant things (such as his responsibilities) can be eased off on.

Viewed from that basis...is it your emotional attachment to Angel that keeps you from insisting on playing with pain with him...or was it stated from the start that he would not endure physical pain for(from) you and you agreed?

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)

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RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 6:58:01 PM

TemptingNviceSub

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For me personally I would find no attachment, limiting..for without attachment,I would feel nothing,do nothing,be inspired by nothing,strive for nothing,in essence it would not draw me in the first place..so hence limit felt before it began..Tempting

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RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/26/2007 8:13:29 PM

ELUSIVE1

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My most extreme scenes have been with simple play partners--because while there was a limited 'friendship' attachment--there was no commitment, and there fore they felt no need to 'hold back'..I agree that simple play partners/sessions equates to simple parlor games with no real meaning..I am glad I experienced the things I have 'sans' attachment...taught me a lot about myself,my limitations...Every d/s dynamic that I have been in, the 'top' or Dominant held back during play...I distinctly rmember my first Master and I having a conversation about fisting and him saying ' that is going to hurt...really hurt'...and is was almost a year later and many conversations until he tried it...

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RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/27/2007 7:24:23 AM

spankmepink11

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

For me personally I would find no attachment, limiting..for without attachment,I would feel nothing,do nothing,be inspired by nothing,strive for nothing,in essence it would not draw me in the first place..so hence limit felt before it began..Tempting

Excellent post. i agree.

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)

Post #: 58

RE: Attachment IS Limitation...is it really? - 9/27/2007 10:37:06 AM

Kimveri

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G'morning, folks,

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
"Attachment IS Limitation". Your thoughts?

I think if we consider it in a more 3D manner we may see the truth in this statement. If we visualize a deep attachment to another person as a bond, or string, connecting us to them. Consider moving away from them...how far can you move away before you've broken the string/attachment? There is a limit there. That limit is to one's movement away from the partner.

Such an attachment can be amazingly liberating when one's focus is moving towards the person to whom one is attached. That exploration, of the partner, is now less limited. One can explore inward with little limitation once one accepts that outward movement is now limited.

It's a balance. All things have a cost. In order to gain the inward exploration of one's partner(s), one accepts an outward limitation. If one seeks an outward exploration with less limits then one will balance that with an inward limitation.

However, we all have limits, either inherent, imposed or chosen. Even with those on this thread who've suggested that a deep emotional attachment to their partner frees them from limits, I would suspect they all still have "hard limits". ;-D

Essentially, I believe we all need an anchor-point from which to operate in life. What that anchor may be certainly varies, but there must be some sort of attachment to the anchor, & that carries with it the cost of a limitation. That limitation will vary, but it inevitably exists, inward or outward.

*re-reads, sees this makes zero sense

Ahhh, well...

I wish you all balance,

~Kimveri

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Post #: 59

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