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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/26/2007 10:55:19 AM   
sapphirepleasure


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Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Damocles809

But from browsing  profiles, you can see there are a lot of really angry guys out there who clicked the "dominant" box. 



You're not kidding.  I use the 'hide' feature a lot.

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/26/2007 10:55:24 AM   
NoirUMC


Posts: 132
Joined: 4/17/2007
Status: offline 		Ok, that old joke ("masochist begs for pain, sadist says 'no!'") wasn't all that funny the first time I heard it. Stop. Repeating. Stupid. Joke. Please.

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/26/2007 11:04:29 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Now if I were to take someone vanilla and beat her, -that- would be sadistic (assuming I get some pleasure out of the act).

But I fail to see the sadism in giving a masochist what she wants and enjoys.



This is where we draw the difference between 'Sadists' and 'Service Tops.' 

When I call myself a sadist, I don't mean to say I am a service top.  I don't inflict pain on my girls with the goal of 'making her happy.'  My motivation is more to express intensity of desire.  I like that she enjoys this expression; but I would still enjoy doing so with her, knowing she hated it (so long as she's consented to it of course.) 

This is, of course, very different from the motivation of the clinical sadist, who inflicts pain without regard for consensuality.

Stephan

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/26/2007 12:15:03 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		The Man is the first truly dominant man I've ever known and he's not into s & m. He just gets his rocks off tying girls up and using them sexually. Luckily for me, I'm the girl he does it to.

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/26/2007 1:51:26 PM   
Bobkgin


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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Now if I were to take someone vanilla and beat her, -that- would be sadistic (assuming I get some pleasure out of the act).

But I fail to see the sadism in giving a masochist what she wants and enjoys.



This is where we draw the difference between 'Sadists' and 'Service Tops.' 

When I call myself a sadist, I don't mean to say I am a service top.  I don't inflict pain on my girls with the goal of 'making her happy.'  My motivation is more to express intensity of desire.  I like that she enjoys this expression; but I would still enjoy doing so with her, knowing she hated it (so long as she's consented to it of course.) 

This is, of course, very different from the motivation of the clinical sadist, who inflicts pain without regard for consensuality.

Stephan

 
That's the part I don't get: consenting to it and hating it. For me one cancels out the other, and if she is determined to give me consent, it is because she knows she'll enjoy it (granted, in a masochistic way).


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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/26/2007 1:54:54 PM   
Bobkgin


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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

The Man is the first truly dominant man I've ever known and he's not into s & m. He just gets his rocks off tying girls up and using them sexually. Luckily for me, I'm the girl he does it to.


*wistful smile*

Yes, I remember days and nights like that.



_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/26/2007 1:59:29 PM   
apiercedkitty


Posts: 569
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From: Michigan
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
 
That's the part I don't get: consenting to it and hating it. For me one cancels out the other, and if she is determined to give me consent, it is because she knows she'll enjoy it (granted, in a masochistic way).



Ummm... isn't being a slave giving up power? Which, in turn, means that some circumstances may come up that said slave consents to - just because the Master requires it? i, personally, have consented on several occasions to things i didn't desire or enjoy just because i was part of that dynamic at the time.

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/26/2007 2:00:23 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		I've known - very well, I might add -  two Alpha males who were definitely not sadists.
 
-grace

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/26/2007 2:08:22 PM   
toservez


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From: All over now in Minnesota
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quote:

That's the part I don't get: consenting to it and hating it. For me one cancels out the other, and if she is determined to give me consent, it is because she knows she'll enjoy it (granted, in a masochistic way).


We would be so incompatible because my Master doing or making me do things he knows I do not enjoy because it is his given right and for his enjoyment is simply delicious to me. But besides all the other aspects and levels of a power exchange relationship I most certainly have a fetish for power and seeing it exercised on me.

That is why I am drawn to sadists and people with strong fetishes. I do not have a masochistic bone in my body so to know he is inflicting pain on me for totally his reasons and he can is the pleasure at play in my mind, not the pain.



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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/26/2007 2:19:32 PM   
Bobkgin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

quote:

That's the part I don't get: consenting to it and hating it. For me one cancels out the other, and if she is determined to give me consent, it is because she knows she'll enjoy it (granted, in a masochistic way).


We would be so incompatible because my Master doing or making me do things he knows I do not enjoy because it is his given right and for his enjoyment is simply delicious to me. But besides all the other aspects and levels of a power exchange relationship I most certainly have a fetish for power and seeing it exercised on me.

That is why I am drawn to sadists and people with strong fetishes. I do not have a masochistic bone in my body so to know he is inflicting pain on me for totally his reasons and he can is the pleasure at play in my mind, not the pain.





Ah, but to be begged for more pain, and more, and more, until she is begging/pleading/tempting me to go beyond the safety limits I've established ...

*sigh*



_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/26/2007 3:03:49 PM   
WildeDanny


Posts: 27
Joined: 9/3/2007
Status: offline 		I agree. Sounds like a load of manure. Myself, I have some sadistic tendancies, but I am not a pure sadist.

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/26/2007 4:15:33 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sapphirepleasure

This had never occurred to me, and I am still pondering it and wondering how true it is.  So I wanted to ask, in your experience, are all (or most) alpha males sadists (at least to a degree)?


No, alpha males need not be sadistic.  I'm certainly not.

I've always seen powerful leaders as benevolent, promoting their followers to new heights.  Sadistic, particularly manevolent, individuals would make for poor leaders in this regard.  Therefore, it seems to follow that natural (evolutionly advantaged) alpha males are benevolent at heart- or, at very least, pragmatic.

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/27/2007 12:35:07 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

quote:

That's the part I don't get: consenting to it and hating it. For me one cancels out the other, and if she is determined to give me consent, it is because she knows she'll enjoy it (granted, in a masochistic way).


We would be so incompatible because my Master doing or making me do things he knows I do not enjoy because it is his given right and for his enjoyment is simply delicious to me. But besides all the other aspects and levels of a power exchange relationship I most certainly have a fetish for power and seeing it exercised on me.

That is why I am drawn to sadists and people with strong fetishes. I do not have a masochistic bone in my body so to know he is inflicting pain on me for totally his reasons and he can is the pleasure at play in my mind, not the pain.




toservez,

see, this is how our dynamic works as well.  I'll let charlotte expand on that.

Bobkin,

hating something doesn't cancel consent to it.  (Consider your income taxes a moment if you can't figure that out.)

Paying to get into a terrible play or opera, I am still consenting (tacitly in fact; I'm free to stand up and walk out) yet there may be other reasons I will remain (to share the experience with my girl, for example.)  I'm clearly not enjoying the play or opera, but in being there for my girl, it allows us to grow closer.  I think this is probably the closest way to explain the value of suffering through something you hate, for someone you care about.  Meeting or sharing events/holidays with her family members who are just God awful are also on this level.

The headspace that certain slaves enter when they are being forced to do something they hate is very different, from when a submissive is being bound and hit with her favorite flogger, just the place she likes it, just the way she likes it.  This doesn't mean I don't enjoy giving my slave pleasure; she loves massages, and I give them frequently, because I do enjoy making her happy, and seeing her pleased.  But part of her contentment, as toservez points out, also comes from knowing that I'm under no obligation to make her happy.  That I am, indeed, strong enough to push her past her own limits, to force her outside of her comfort zone, but in doing so I literally carry her out of her comfort zone.  She becomes totally dependent on me to keep from really hurting her, damaging her, etc, because she is so out of what she is comfortable with.

Essentially, you don't know how hard or far you can be pushed, until you're pushed too hard.

Stephan




_____________________________

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"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/27/2007 1:53:26 PM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		LOL I have used an opera example like that several times in my life.

In essence part of the mental state and living in a more sever power exchange is that clarity that I not only enjoy on a sexual way but just on my average mental way. LA likes to call it the control nature of a submissive; I like to call it living with a high level of clarity in life. My Master does this or makes me do this because he truly wants to do it and not because he thinks I want it. So even things done for my benefit and I know he would in general prefer not to but he wants me to enjoy I am comforted by the intention that to me makes it quite powerful.

So things done that both of us know I take zero pleasure in is not only a turn on sexually to me but is a wonderful physical manifestation of the power and choices of the way we are living life. For me as a slave, if my Master can do these things to me it helps me mentally know that all his other actions to the most mundane are true in their intention and not done out of some sense of obligation or hidden agenda.



_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/27/2007 2:16:21 PM   
Kelika


Posts: 56
Joined: 4/25/2006
From: Cincinnati
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin


 
That's the part I don't get: consenting to it and hating it. For me one cancels out the other, and if she is determined to give me consent, it is because she knows she'll enjoy it (granted, in a masochistic way).



Bobkin,

I have to disagree with your statement there.  As someone else mentioned above, it's the power or authority exchange that gets me.  I have tried to bottom for people I don't have this inate desire to please and because I am not a masochist, it does nothing for me but cause extreme emotional distress afterwards.

Now, when I'm in the hand of someone I highly respect or find attractive and thus want to please them with my servitude, I can and do take a fierce beating.  I remember seeing rough body play at one of my first big events and I just couldn't watch it, it seemed so brutal to me, but less than a year later I was highly attracted to a presenter who did breath play and I asked him for a scene.  Now, because I wanted to please him, make him happy...I said I would do rough body as well, but explained I hadn't done it before.  It was an amazing scene and even Master Z from Dallas commented on it. 

I have done other things where I didn't want to do them because I was emotionally and mentally bound to someone.  I knew it would make them happy and thus any discomfort I felt was negated because of how much I had been able to please. 

As a side note on the sadist bit...if he/she doesn't take you to a place where the sub/slave no longer enjoys it...completely hates it, then it is not sadism.  I would constent to sadism not because I enjoy the fact that my body aches for days afterwards, or sometimes I have had bruises for 3 weeks later that I'm still covering up, but because my desire to be the one to make a smile form on his face...that twinkle in his eye...that is what I would it for.

And NO, not all alpha males are sadists.  I know plenty of alpha males that aren't sadists.  They may or may not enjoy kink, but -true- consensual sadists I think are very hard to find.

Well wishes,
Kelika


_____________________________

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/27/2007 2:19:48 PM   
SlaveOwnerDave


Posts: 113
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Petaluma, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rumtiger

not all doms are alpha males.

in fact, from what i've seen, a vast majority of them aren't.

I have met about eight Masters--those with whom I have had real conversations/time together--and zero of them were Alpha males. Additional Masters, seen in BDSM situations, seem also to be non-Alpha.

When I first began noticing this, I had trouble believing it. I thought more-Dominant==>Master, and most-Dominant==>Alpha.

But I am an Engineer, and tend to think logically. Alpha-maleness, Dominance, Mastery, are all emotion-related, and applying logical analysis to an emotional subject can be tricky!

I have the name and address of someone who works with this type of information, so I will ask him about it. Then I will let everyone know what he had to say.

Sincerely,
Master Dave

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/27/2007 2:50:50 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		General reply to no one in particular...

Trying to define sadism in a black and white philosophical sense is about as pointles as defining anything else in BDSM as static, because the lines of enjoyment and non enjoyment blend together in different ways.

I am a sadist and its something that is becomming more and more unearthed in me. Whether she enjoys it or not is really irrelevant to me : Its how she reacts to it that fuels my Beast.

Recently, I got some play time in with a girl. I specifically used the paddle because she disliked it. She cried out in pain and tears formed in her eyes, but she still got aroused and wet. What was she enjoying it or not enjoying it?

When I slapped her in the face, she cowered away and tried to hide her head, but she didnt safeword out and if I had stopped forcing her head up so I could slap her again, she wouldnt have wanted me to. Enjoyment or non enjoyment?

All the reactions during the scene would have made it clear that she wasnt happy with how rough I was being with her and that I wanted her to stop, ranging from her tears to her "No!"'s to her resisting me.

But still....at the end, she told me how great it was.

I am a sadist because I enjoy inflicting pain and discomfort in another human being on a physical or physological level. I get my enjoyment from the reactions to the pain and discomfort (reactions that dont really change to much outside of the fact that they are getting aroused by it). Whether its welcomed or not or enjoyed in the same way someone enjoys an ice cream cone is a moot point to me. (I will admit I get additional enjoyment if I know she specifically dislikes the activity such as the paddle)

Nor would I try and hide from what I am by saying clincial sadism is the only "real and true sadism" 

To the OP...

At best, I would call it a generalization and one that does have some truth to it. As I learn more and more about myself, I consider my sadism and dominance to be linked because power and the ability to inflict pain are connected to me.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 9/27/2007 2:52:36 PM >

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/27/2007 2:53:21 PM   
Satyr6406


Posts: 820
Joined: 3/27/2006
From: New Brunswick, N.J.
Status: offline 		Okay. I'll be "the fly in the ointment" (I usually am).
 
I'm a dominant that's a pacifist and will NOT engage in violent activity of ANY KIND.
 
Discuss ... LOL!!!!

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/27/2007 4:19:18 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Sapphire you really need to start examining the type of dom you attract to yourself and ask why that type of person and why your filters are working the way they are- are you attracting what you really WANT?

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RE: Are Alpha Males Sadists By Nature? - 9/27/2007 6:14:51 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sapphirepleasure
His belief was that virtually all alpha males are sadists by nature and I would have to come to terms with that since I am obviously attracted to alpha males. 
  Personally, I believe that every human being is sadistic by nature to some degree. It's the reason everyone slows down on the freeway to look at accidents. It's the reason that the Gossip Rags make money. Just my view. There is a difference between sadistic by nature and sexual sadism. Saying that if you're one, you have to be the other is incorrect. I know some very Alpha males that are not really into sexual sadism.

I also find it funny that so many so-called sadists associate sadism with extreme. Master is known as a hard core sadist. I am not a hard core masochist. To Master it's not his actions that matter, it's my reactions that matter. If he can get the same reaction from spanking me, as he can from breaking a paddle on someone else....he's happy. He has the ability to adjust himself to the situation. So, when people talk about having to play up to the level of the sadist, I find it puzzling.

< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 9/27/2007 6:17:31 PM >

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