RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal?

RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (Full Version)

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agirl -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 5:47:10 AM)
A few thoughts...... I wouldn't like, or have a lot of respect for a system of punishment that relied on something as variable as * begging forgiveness to my liking. It could* work, if it was clear enough exactly what * your liking* is, but otherwise, it just seems confusing, laborious and a bit of a guessing game. Speaking personally, a threat isn't a credible threat unless I know it WILL happen, and the fact that you SAID you were going * all the way with it* but DIDN'T...might make her relieved at the time, but while you may be focussing on the fact that you could have/would have and she may have too, at the time.......consider the thought that she will ALSO notice that you DIDN'T. If you've never DONE it, say you're going to and don't, how is it a credible threat? The trust between M and I has its base in the fact that he does what he says. This would certainly be a mind-fuck, but the result wouldn't be good for either of us. You said that * The understanding the sub has that you don't like doing it and that you want her to understand that their actions are making you do something you don't want to do. Again, personally speaking, I'm afraid that my heart doesn't bleed for my Master in these situations, nor would he ever think it would. Nor does HIS heart bleed for me. If this is the system we chose then we'd BOTH better accept the consequences. Edited to add.........It would be very easy for M to stop contact; without ANY doubt it would subdue me; I'd be more compliant and I'd fall-in*, in the SHORT term, out of fear. It's never been used, even though I DO need the contact and he doesn't. The fastest route isn't the best or the most productive., but it depends on where you're going, I suppose. agirl

SirCache -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 5:51:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Celeste43 Around here, punishment is not the objective. Communication is. I want this embossed in gold and placed above the doors to every room in my house. Thank you, Celeste43--you totally hit it right on the head.

SubmissiveLion -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 6:12:24 AM)
Wow. So many views. This really has changed my perspective quite a bit. I appreciate the candid comments.

thetammyjo -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 7:08:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SubmissiveLion So to conclude, and not be longwinded(er too late). Punishment for me consists of: 1. The threat 2. The use of that threat 3. The understanding the sub has that you don't like doing it, and you want her/him to understand that their actions are making you do something yo don't want to do. What do you all think? I don't find a reason for punishment above nor do a find a purpose it should serve. Unless there is a reason for the punishment and a purpose behind it, I think that it is really just play or cruelty.

RCdc -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 7:22:02 AM)
Punishment should never be a threat, that's just a mind fuck and not good if there is no agreement to mindfucking. Use of a threat is again, head play. See above. As for the third... hogwash. If a dominant is doing something they clearly do not wish to do, I would question why they are submitting. That's just a guilt trip someone lays on the submissive to make them feel bad. Again, mind fucking. This post isn't about punishments, it's about head games. And not a healthy one IMO either. Peace the.dark.

breatheasone -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 7:40:05 AM)
I like being a masochist. I love getting beat, whipped, and spanked. I love that my Master DOESN'T have to "punish" me for me to get that physical abuse. Master will simply beat me because He wants to...or sometimes just because He knows I really want it. I don't have to "be bad" or disobedient to get a beating thank GOD! As far as brutal?....I'll have to let you know about that....not there yet[;)]

RCdc -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 7:43:26 AM)
This is Darcy. I personally believe that if a Master is properly submitted to then there is no need for threats. the.dark knows what makes me happy and what does not, and so does not do that which would make me unhappy. I would certainly never cut off contact because that would hurt me as much as it would hurt the.dark, and besides I'm a human being too, and I need love and affection and contact. Just because I'm the dominant personality in the relationship doesn't make me cold, unemotional and able, or willing, to deprive myself of contact with the.dark.

destined2serve1 -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 8:08:42 AM)
For what it may be worth to others, here is an excerpt from the "Loving Domestic Discpline web site regarding spanking; Although not prescribing to it to the letter (he does spank but not to the frequency this group suggests), it reflects a philosophy on discpline that is being embraced in O/our relationship. "In the Loving Domestic Discipline lifestyle, the woman receives discipline according to her Head of Household's assessment of her needs. If she has been misbehaving, he will administer a punishment spanking that will teach her not to misbehave. If she has been displaying a negative attitude, he will administer a spanking that will positively modify her attitude. If the woman has been disobedient while she is being disciplined, she will receive a Disobedience Discipline to punish her lack of obedience during the disciplinary process. The HOH will also administer regular Maintenance Discipline spankings which serve to remind the woman of her responsibilities. These are an important part of the Loving Domestic Discipline lifestyle because they actively build the woman's obedience, respect and honesty. Unlike punishment spankings, which only punish her misbehavior, a maintenance spanking helps to build on the existing foundations of the woman's obedience, respect and honesty. Maintenance Discipline builds on her good behavior so that she will develop even better behavior. Sometimes, the HOH will administer a Preemptive Discipline which will encourage the woman to behave well in a forthcoming situation where she has been known to misbehave in the past. The Preemptive Discipline involves spanking the woman to tears prior to the situation in which she has previously misbehaved. At other times, however, an HOH will decide to spank his woman "just because." A "just because" spanking is more accurately known as a submission spanking. A submission spanking can be administered to the woman at any time. But she is not given a submission spanking because she has misbehaved. Therefore it is not a punishment spanking."

RRafe -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 8:26:12 AM)
Good lord, if I had to live in situations where I micromanaged-I'd go and see a shrink.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 2:02:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SubmissiveLion I just wanted to know from everyone, what they punish for and how brutal do they become? Personally speaking. There are different levels. and types. If my sub doesn't send me her daily picture or call me when I ask, I stop talking to her and implement a no contact rule till she has begged me for forgiveness to my liking. Some people would think its lax, but if your a Dominant, then you don't need the contact, while a sub most likely needs the Master to give them attention. You would be suprised at how fast you can keep a Sub in line with that. Something more, like disobeying a direct order...and not just any order, one you call out and explain that it is a large transgression, well then you need to have a threat of something they don't like. Its the credible threat that counts. For instance, my Sub hates the butt plug, so I keep one around, and display it when she has done very badly. I haven't ever had to put it in all the way, because she knows it hurts...and this keeps her in line. Punishment should be a credible threat to the Sub, and they should believe that you will use it. For example, my Sub disobeyed me and did something that I told her was a hot button. So for punishment, I tied her up , blindfolded her, greased her anus up and started to use the plug. She started to cry, and beg me for forgiveness. So I pushed the limit a little bit, told her to hold on cause I was going all the way with it, it was going to hurt. Then just as I started to push I stopped. Why you may ask? Cause the threat it credible, and she believed I was going to do it. Perception is part of the punishment. I untied her, held her close, and told her do you ever want me to do that again? She said no...and that brought her right back into line. So to conclude, and not be longwinded(er too late). Punishment for me consists of: 1. The threat 2. The use of that threat 3. The understanding the sub has that you don't like doing it, and you want her/him to understand that their actions are making you do something yo don't want to do. What do you all think? I think punishment is to be used rarely. I think discipline...to correct behavior or attitude...will probably be used more at the beginning of the D/s dynamic or at points within the dynamic where the levels are changing but that the need for it should be less and less as the dynamic grows and matures and discipline of character and respect for each other and the dynamic grows. I don't enjoy punishment and I don't enjoy discipline. If either is called for, then as LA...and others...have noted here and on various past threads, it usually indicates a misunderstanding, a miscommunication or a deeper problem. I want to know what the cause of the infraction is before I deal with the infraction. What you've described above seems counter-productive in my world. I don't like to threaten...maybe because I don't do well with threats myself. I make myself clear right from the start and always have as to the fact that I do believe in discipline...not only OF self but FOR correction....and that I will follow through on what I say will happen, whether on the good issues, the fun issues, or the heavier issues.

Focus50 -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 2:28:45 PM)
On the very rare occasions I've needed to punish my girl, I've used arguably the most brutal form of all; the complete withdrawal of closeness and attention for a specific time span, which was once a full hour of corner time. I only punish for things the girl does that makes me genuinely angry - and that's difficult for the average sub to achieve. And when I'm angry, it's I who doesn't wanna be close to anyone so frog-marching her to the corner is dual purpose - her punishment time is my cool off time. The trouble with your butt plug analogy is A), you're still giving her attention, albeit being reinforced with a negative headspace and B), if it does hurt as much as she says, you're probably getting too close to seriously injuring her through a lack of adequate lube! I loathe actually administering punishment but I feel it is important to have such a consequence in place. Focus.

Cyntilating -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 3:31:25 PM)
Submissive Lion If I have done something incorrect, Master talks with me about it. If he needs me to do something different than the way I understood his instructions, Master talks with me about it. If I forget to do something, he asks me about it and then considers my reasons... Is he not in control because he doesnt whip my ass when hes displeased? on the contrary. He is using the utmost control, of himself. He knows that it is always my desire and goal to please him ..and so if something happened that derailed my goal> he knows it was not intentional..I HATE to displease!or dissappoint Him..Ive probably already punished myself a considerable amount because I did something incorrect/wrong... As adults, we communicate. His preference > he always wants my head in the right place when experiencing and responding to his actions , and so he doesnt use implements, or physical actions/intensities (ie spanking, flogging, bondage, sensory dep etc) that he would use during play for anything other than just that. there are alot of unknowns and anticipations he creates and mixes into WIIWD...but one thing I never have to question is whether what I am feeling is about punishment or anger or displeasure..they are always separated from the sensations and experiences. re:the butt plug thing.. I don't like buttplugs either......but,its a love/hate thing ...grinz. my brain would have been doing flip flops trying to sort out > this is punishment??, but it sure doesnt feel like punishment..

Cuffkinks -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 4:56:51 PM)
I very rarely have to punish My little girl. If she ever does something that displeases or disappoints Me, I immediately let her know. We discuss it so that she knows exactly what is wrong and what she will have coming. She's harder on herself than I could ever be. Many have stated the same feeling. I have used lack of contact to punish a former sub in the past, but that was an L.D.R. and taking away contact was a highly effective way of disciplining her. I disagree with the OP as far as Doms not needing contact. It bothered Me to have to do it, but it was necessary at the time. With My present little girl, this is not long distance so that method isn't necesssary. Quite frankly, I love contact. My little girl is a wonderful sub as well as a wonderful woman. So why would I want to keep her away? I put it like this: There are times when I want to punish her and then there are times when I have to punish her. As stated earlier, the times I "have to" punish her are very rare. I make it known to her the difference. If the sadist in Me wants to "come out and play," those are times I want to punish her. If she does something that requires discipline, that is a time when I have to punish her. When I "want to," there are many forms of punishment. My hand, flogger, paddle, belt, bondage, clamps, orgasm control, figging...etc. But that's all a form of play. We both enjoy it. When I "have to" punish her, I use the cane. It's the only time the cane comes out. She does not enjoy it, but she endures because she wants to please Me and she knows she has it coming. Once the cane comes out and is used, I consider the issue closed. She has made amends for her infraction and it's over, never to be brought up again. I then use positive aftercare because she, quite frankly is a teary eyed mess and she needs Me to put the pieces back together that I have just broken down. I do this gladly. Not just because it's My responsibility, but because I love and cherish her. I like the idea of one item used strictly for the "have to" punishment. I think the mental association of the item and formal punishment creates sort of a Pavilovian mindset. (Did I spell the name right?) When she is placed in position and ready to receive punishment, just hearing the "whoosh" of the cane can get her mind to the place I want it to be. Last thing: I will NEVER punish out of anger. I personally don't feel there's a place for anger in BDSM, but these are just My opinions and not by any means Me telling anyone else how to conduct themselves. Jeez...I was trying to keep this short.

SubmissiveLion -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 5:20:33 PM)
From what I am reading, punishment is different for everyone. Each dominant has their own way of conducting discipline, what works for one sub might not work on another. And I agree with Cuff, once you use a form of punishment, the mere thought of it will make sure the dominant will keep the sub in line. Now I know a bunch of you will say , well if your sub is misbehaving then something is wrong...it also looks like the length of time in the relationship is important to consider. At first you must use your punishment to show physically what is right and wrong, after time this shouldn't be an issue. A lot of times I have found a sub is challenged communication wise, because of something in their life...and they are unwilling to talk , once communication breaks down, then you need to punish. Show that talking will make it better and they will respond... after time.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 5:31:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SubmissiveLion At first you must use your punishment to show physically what is right and wrong, after time this shouldn't be an issue. Actually the theory is that you tell them and show them what is wrong and then once they break those standards THEN they obviously need to be shown another way. quote: A lot of times I have found a sub is challenged communication wise, because of something in their life...and they are unwilling to talk , once communication breaks down, then you need to punish. Show that talking will make it better and they will respond... after time. I just skip the punish part and show how direct communication works best. Works great for me.

AquaticSub -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 5:33:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SubmissiveLion A lot of times I have found a sub is challenged communication wise, because of something in their life...and they are unwilling to talk , once communication breaks down, then you need to punish. Show that talking will make it better and they will respond... after time. We find punishing due to communication errors on either side, if anything, breaks down communication. Valyraen has punished before understanding the full situation once. Afterwards, he apologized for the punishment because he should not have done it. If needs be, we will put d/s on hold until we are both able to communicate effectively. I do not regard this as a punishment in the slightest, but it is a motivator to communicate effectively.

Bobkgin -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 5:36:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SubmissiveLion I just wanted to know from everyone, what they punish for and how brutal do they become? Personally speaking. There are different levels. and types. If my sub doesn't send me her daily picture or call me when I ask, I stop talking to her and implement a no contact rule till she has begged me for forgiveness to my liking. Some people would think its lax, but if your a Dominant, then you don't need the contact, while a sub most likely needs the Master to give them attention. You would be suprised at how fast you can keep a Sub in line with that. Something more, like disobeying a direct order...and not just any order, one you call out and explain that it is a large transgression, well then you need to have a threat of something they don't like. Its the credible threat that counts. For instance, my Sub hates the butt plug, so I keep one around, and display it when she has done very badly. I haven't ever had to put it in all the way, because she knows it hurts...and this keeps her in line. Punishment should be a credible threat to the Sub, and they should believe that you will use it. For example, my Sub disobeyed me and did something that I told her was a hot button. So for punishment, I tied her up , blindfolded her, greased her anus up and started to use the plug. She started to cry, and beg me for forgiveness. So I pushed the limit a little bit, told her to hold on cause I was going all the way with it, it was going to hurt. Then just as I started to push I stopped. Why you may ask? Cause the threat it credible, and she believed I was going to do it. Perception is part of the punishment. I untied her, held her close, and told her do you ever want me to do that again? She said no...and that brought her right back into line. So to conclude, and not be longwinded(er too late). Punishment for me consists of: 1. The threat 2. The use of that threat 3. The understanding the sub has that you don't like doing it, and you want her/him to understand that their actions are making you do something yo don't want to do. What do you all think? Why is any of that necessary with a sub/slave who: 1. is an intelligent, responsible adult who has freely chosen to serve? 2. recognizes and accepts her own need to obey the one she's chosen to serve. 3. serves due to love and devotion to you. How do you get a sub/slave to devote more of herself through fear rather than love?

angelic -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 5:46:14 PM)
Personally, i do not understand this way of thinking. If the only way to get your sub to obey or open up and communicate is to beat it into them, in my book that does not make you a Dom, it makes you a bully.

HottLicks -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 5:52:39 PM)
When there is a communication problem such as you have spoken of, caused by damage in life, how is punishment going to solve anything? Aren't you compounding the problems by adding fear? I feel that my submissive needs to know that I understand his needs and want what is best for him. To punish him because he cannot speak because of a damaging situation and to think he needs punishment rather than understanding and healing just seems abusive to me and I am sure would to him as well. I don"t want my submissive afraid of me in any way. Respectful, afraid to displease me or to disobey, but not afraid of me. We can do damage in things we do and that includes physical or emotional. If we are going to mind phuck, I think it might be good if we understood human nature enough to know when we could be doing harm.

RCdc -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/28/2007 4:24:44 AM)
No - first you communicate the rights and wrongs of what applies to you and then if it is repeatedly failed or pushed against, then the punishment comes. In your way, the person who is submitting is being punished before they have even had a chance to prove themselves. Your way implies that the one submitting cannot function without punishment. Punishment like that will not open communication, but close it down for many people. In my opinion it is an abusive step, not a discipline one... you aren't even allowing the s-type the chance to learn by examples of communication... teach the communication first, instruct on it and then if that fails, discipline. Don't abuse your position by dishing out punishments when you haven't allowed the s-type the chance to improve to the right and wrong. the.dark.

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