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RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 6:56:16 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

warning, this is really a political rant...

ok...i am tired of hearing about how 20 deaths a day in a war is unaacceptable...umm hello! its a war...people die....in wars!!  there are people out there, and while they wear the same clothes as everyone else around them so it makes them very hard to distinguish the good from the bad, they still want our soldiers dead...because if our soldiers "just came home" they would follow them...cocooning up in a little ball does NOT make us safe...and by the way...when its really hard to get in, its really hard to get out...think about a prison...

people accuse me, because of my age of not knowing about the past, but has it been so long that ya'll have forgotten about the major wars the USA has faught in just the past 100 years (leaving out minor wars and non-wars and wars the USA did not fight in) WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War...people fucking died...all the time...did we take our toys and go home cause we got over there and went oh shit, the bullets are real? NO....we got into it, because we saw a need and we finished what we said we were going to do....and just because the fighting was over did we leave? NO you fucking people....we don't pack up our bags because the dictator is dead...that just leaves space for a new dictator to move in....psychology/sociology 101....change is uncomfortable...individuals and groups will hold on to miserable familiarity rather than go through uncomfortable change no matter how good the outcome would be on the other side of that change....

btw...if Hitler had had half the pep and speaking skills that Osama bin Laden  and some of these other Muslim leaders have....we would still have concentration camps around the world....cause some of those SS soldiers lived to a ripe old age off the art and jewelry they stole from Jews they killed and took to concentration camps....

end rant...one to beam, scotty
chelle


That's funny, "they'd follow us."
That's what John McCain says out of one side of his mouth while saying out the other side of his mouth that "we can't secure our borders or deport 12 million people."
If our borders were properly secured "they" couldn't "follow us!"
He also said; "If we leave Iraq it will become a breeding ground for terrorism."
Oh? And Syria, Egypt, Yemen, Saudi-Arabia and other countries "aren't "breeding grounds for terrorism?"
McCain's new campaign slogan; "An Army of One!"

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 7:03:09 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessMine

Me, Myself, and I, geezer.

Love,
GM


The three favorite people in your life, it seems. Good luck with that.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to GoddessMine)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 7:07:36 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

warning, this is really a political rant...

ok...i am tired of hearing about how 20 deaths a day in a war is unaacceptable...umm hello! its a war...people die....in wars!!  there are people out there, and while they wear the same clothes as everyone else around them so it makes them very hard to distinguish the good from the bad, they still want our soldiers dead...because if our soldiers "just came home" they would follow them...cocooning up in a little ball does NOT make us safe...and by the way...when its really hard to get in, its really hard to get out...think about a prison...

people accuse me, because of my age of not knowing about the past, but has it been so long that ya'll have forgotten about the major wars the USA has faught in just the past 100 years (leaving out minor wars and non-wars and wars the USA did not fight in) WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War...people fucking died...all the time...did we take our toys and go home cause we got over there and went oh shit, the bullets are real? NO....we got into it, because we saw a need and we finished what we said we were going to do....and just because the fighting was over did we leave? NO you fucking people....we don't pack up our bags because the dictator is dead...that just leaves space for a new dictator to move in....psychology/sociology 101....change is uncomfortable...individuals and groups will hold on to miserable familiarity rather than go through uncomfortable change no matter how good the outcome would be on the other side of that change....

btw...if Hitler had had half the pep and speaking skills that Osama bin Laden  and some of these other Muslim leaders have....we would still have concentration camps around the world....cause some of those SS soldiers lived to a ripe old age off the art and jewelry they stole from Jews they killed and took to concentration camps....

end rant...one to beam, scotty
chelle



Obviously ,you have no family in the military.

Hey kid,why don`t you join?"Only" 20 soldiers, are dying a week.
Maybe you`ll be one of the lucky 50 a week,that that don`t die,and just lose a limb, get a perminant head injury,or a lifetime case of PTSS.
We need brave,fearless soldiers,like you.

I think the issue here is,that this war(occupation,in fact)wasn`t neccessary.
Along,of course, w/ the douche bags who lied" us into it.

That`s what makes losing 20 of America`s sons(a week),so hard to take.It`s the folly.



< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/29/2007 7:15:13 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 7:41:12 AM   
GoddessMine


Posts: 250
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessMine

Me, Myself, and I, geezer.

Love,
GM


The three favorite people in your life, it seems. Good luck with that.


In whippersnapper-speak: fo' shizzle, my nizzle.

And thanks!

Love,
GM

_____________________________

Pleasure of the Text? Pleasure of the Goddess, more like it.

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 8:17:03 AM   
greyarcher315


Posts: 99
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline 		Ok, i think i need to try to correct some misunderstandings here. i know it will probably do no good, as people seem to have forgotten so much, or twisted facts into pretzels because of their politics.
First, we went into Iraq because of intelligence that stated Saddam had WMDs. It was not just the US, but quite a few other countries that agreed with information. The UN agreed with it, and so did Congress. We did not go into Iraq because of oil, or 9/11. 
Since then, the combination of not letting the military do it's job properly, and a lack of interest by the Iraqi people in contributing to their own security have caused this war to go badly for us. As well as it being very hard to fight an enemy who is using guerilla tactics.
Second, if we pull our troops out now, it will leave a bigger power vacuum than has already been created. Iran is the most likely one to fill it. Do we really want to give Iran's leaders more power? They allready hate us.
With our borders as full of holes as they are, terrorists can, and probably have already, going to end up in the US.  Just because nothing has happened yet does not mean nothing will. These people want us dead, want our country destroyed, and are willing to die themselves to make it happen. Fanatics are dangerous, and these will try to hurt us again.
The pentagon's procurment process is a total mess. It takes far too long to get new equipment to the troops. The problem is not new, and still has not been corrected.
And Scoty didn't beam the tribbles UP, he beamed them OVER to the Klingon ship.

  Now let me go put on my flame proof clothes.....

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 8:29:18 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: greyarcher315

Ok, i think i need to try to correct some misunderstandings here. i know it will probably do no good, as people seem to have forgotten so much, or twisted facts into pretzels because of their politics.
First, we went into Iraq because of intelligence that stated Saddam had WMDs. It was not just the US, but quite a few other countries that agreed with information. The UN agreed with it, and so did Congress. We did not go into Iraq because of oil, or 9/11. 
Since then, the combination of not letting the military do it's job properly, and a lack of interest by the Iraqi people in contributing to their own security have caused this war to go badly for us. As well as it being very hard to fight an enemy who is using guerilla tactics.
Second, if we pull our troops out now, it will leave a bigger power vacuum than has already been created. Iran is the most likely one to fill it. Do we really want to give Iran's leaders more power? They allready hate us.
With our borders as full of holes as they are, terrorists can, and probably have already, going to end up in the US.  Just because nothing has happened yet does not mean nothing will. These people want us dead, want our country destroyed, and are willing to die themselves to make it happen. Fanatics are dangerous, and these will try to hurt us again.
The pentagon's procurment process is a total mess. It takes far too long to get new equipment to the troops. The problem is not new, and still has not been corrected.
And Scoty didn't beam the tribbles UP, he beamed them OVER to the Klingon ship.

Now let me go put on my flame proof clothes.....



It will do little good, you're right about that .
 
Sample conversation:

"The Republicans went into Iraq for oil! They knew no WMD were there."

"But, the Democrats thought the WMDs were there too, as did other nations."

"Arggghhh! I hate Bush!!"

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to greyarcher315)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 8:31:18 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: greyarcher315
These people want us dead, want our country destroyed
Last time I heard about Iraq, it was said that there have been one million Iraqi  murdered since its occupation by the USA and that the USA completely destroyed that country - except for the oil wells. So, I  suppose that you are an Iraqi?

(in reply to greyarcher315)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 8:43:22 AM   
greyarcher315


Posts: 99
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline 		  Well, if we had completely destroyed the country, there would be no need for the troops, because the place would be a wasteland. And what does my nationality have to do with my post? 

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 8:50:09 AM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		 A little tiny correction here ... not really germane to the whole thread at all, but just to provide a little information where a little is sorely lacking.

The "scrap" metal being welded to military vehicles is not "scrap" metal.  It is SA-516-70 Normalized steel plate.  It's expensive and it's difficult to find any that is domestic because the military is getting most of it.  SA-516-70 Normalized plate has a higher tensile strength than SA-516-70 As Rolled.  If the military vehicles had been armored prior to leaving for Iraq, this is the material that would have been used.  It is prime material and certainly not junk. 

Now as to why the vehicles weren't armored prior to leaving for Iraq, I have no clue.  I don't think that those same vehicles were armored the last time we were in Iraq, so I believe that it is probably more the prior experience creating the expectation that it would not be needed, not some inattention to detail by the administration.

People are so quick to make assumptions, to create conspiracy theories out of little bits of information.  They like to arrange things in a way that justifies their personal feelings and even quicker to point fingers and scream "LIES" when the truth lies somewhere in between.

So as far right or left as you might be on this topic, rest assured that you are woefully wrong in whatever your personal, cobbled-together theories might be.  There is a bigger picture and none of  us have it. 

_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 9:00:34 AM   
greyarcher315


Posts: 99
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline 		  You are right, none of us have the big picture.  But all the information we get comes from either the media(right or left, doesn't matter) who will tell the stories in whatever way sells the best, or from one poitical hack or another. Its so hard to weed out the facts, as opposed to the opinions with the news.
Almost as hard as finding intelligent, reasoned debate on a subject.

(in reply to feastie)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 9:05:25 AM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		Let's just unleash our soldiers and let them kill the bad guys, no matter how innocent they may disguise themselves--Otherwise, we'll continue to look MONSTROUSLY incompetent, and the enemies will continue to take potshots at our troops from "churches" (Mosques, but we can't discriminate "just" because these are hideouts of the Moslem fanatic-death-cult!), hospitals, and bombing their OWN streets to kill our troops...
Because we're afraid of being "unliked" by our enemies, we don't occupy the areas we clear of enemies, so the enemies are free to reinfest it. We are already hated by the world--allegedly--let's just win one, and see if they start respecting us, whether because it's the right thing to to, or because they once more fear the consequences of screwing with us!
Our kill ratio is 30-to-1, so we're already "winning"--barely...By now, Iraq should have been flattened...what are we afraid of? Why are we not USING our awesome might? Whether to make clear the consequences, or "just" to save American soldiers?

(in reply to feastie)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 9:10:20 AM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie

People are so quick to make assumptions, to create conspiracy theories out of little bits of information.  They like to arrange things in a way that justifies their personal feelings and even quicker to point fingers and scream "LIES" when the truth lies somewhere in between.

So as far right or left as you might be on this topic, rest assured that you are woefully wrong in whatever your personal, cobbled-together theories might be.  There is a bigger picture and none of  us have it. 


Yeah!

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to feastie)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 9:17:11 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH
to save American soldiers?
The purpose of war is to have as many people killed as possible, including your own troops.

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 9:24:35 AM   
greyarcher315


Posts: 99
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH
to save American soldiers?
The purpose of war is to have as many people killed as possible, including your own troops.
 

Where did you get that twisted idea?

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: to the liberal cry babies - 9/29/2007 9:28:51 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		i just want to eat cake and  dance.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 9:40:15 AM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
You've obviously never tried to infiltrate the US as a tourist, I can't see many terrorists getting in....unless.... they enter illegally via Mexico. Then you're waved through!
You ain't kiddin'.     M


M:
I live in southern California.  I go to Mexico (because that is where the good tequila is) several times a year.  Crossing the boarder either in a car or on foot is not a task for the faint hearted.  Not counting the one to three hour wait in line (either on foot or in a car) you will spend about five minutes discussing your life with the person at the counter who will "wave" you through after you have been through three different scanners and constant video and audio surveillance.  If you have set off any of the metal detectors you will be hand searched and if you have a pocket knife of virtually any description(yes they took my two inch long swiss army knife) it will be confiscated.
Crossing the boarder is not what a lot of folks will tell you it is.
Going into Mexico all they do is wave to you and say, with a smile,  "Buenos dias senior...welcome to Mexico I hope you enjoy your visit"
thompson

I'll second this.  I gave up driving across the border due to the extensive waits.  Almost every time I walked back, I saw people pulled out of line and detained for bad paperwork.  So no, it's not a party getting back in the country.

thornhappy

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: to the liberal cry babies - 9/29/2007 9:41:36 AM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		Oh, thanks for that, I've been going under the clouded impression that the idea of war is to WIN, or at least to kill more of "them" than they kill of "us"...If the idea of war is to kill as many of YOUR OWN troops as possible, then...Well, that corresponds more with my ideas of LOSING...
Sounds like a great concept for a videogame: A numerically inferior, technologically-superior force against a numerically superior--nay, INFINITE--horde of expendable drones...
Wonder if such a videogame would be salable...Possible names for said videogame include: Command&Conquer, StarCraft, WarCraft, Real War, World In Conflict, and Total War: High Treason (The latter being EXCEPTIONALLY apt!)...

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 11:51:22 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie

So as far right or left as you might be on this topic, rest assured that you are woefully wrong in whatever your personal, cobbled-together theories might be.  There is a bigger picture and none of  us have it. 



Here's my "cobbled together" theory.

The US government wants to preserve its status as the most powerful government on the planet; in order to do this, it is attempting to spread its values in places such as Iraq, a la South America, Central Europe etc. They are copying the English model of empire which never involved the conquest of nations; the English model concerned itself with trade and commerce with colonies in the belief that a) it would generate wealth creation for the English b) it would create nations around the world which would be favourable to the English way of life: the English banking system, English common law, English forms of land and tenure, the English language, ideas of liberty, representative assemblies, team games and, most importantly, a limited state. The logic is/was that if the English way of life could be created around the world, then the world will be a prosperous place underpinned by trade and limited state intrusion in private matters, but, more importantly, England's place in the world would be preserved. The US government has absolutely copied this model; it probably looks to India as the shining example, where the English empire managed to govern 250 million people with 900 civil servants and 70,000 soldiers. They never attempted to conquered the nation, they simply ensured trade and commerce was allowed to flourish. That is exactly what the US government is trying to do: securing trade in the interests of the US.

There is a positive in all of this: trade stimulates ideas, which in turn stimulates liberty. India is a good example. Iraq could benefit from Western forms of government and law.

There are two huge negatives in all of this which outweigh all positives:

1) Neither the English or American empires had/have the right to encroach on someone else's space.
2) The American empire is partly responsible for the deaths of upwards of 600,000 people, simply because they believe they know what's best, as per the English empire.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to feastie)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 12:00:16 PM   
InnocentYoungSub


Posts: 210
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

warning, this is really a political rant...

ok...i am tired of hearing about how 20 deaths a day in a war is unaacceptable...umm hello! its a war...people die....


Wow. What other ground breaking thoughts do you have to share with us?

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

n wars!!  there are people out there, and while they wear the same clothes as everyone else around them so it makes them very hard to distinguish the good from the bad, they still want our soldiers dead...because if our soldiers "just came home" they would follow them...


You actually believe if we leave Iraq we're gonna be fighting Al Qaeda in the streets of Bumfuck, Iowa? People like yourself said the same shit about Vietnam 35-40 years ago. Didn't happen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

cocooning up in a little ball does NOT make us safe...and by the way...when its really hard to get in, its really hard to get out...think about a prison...


Um, I don't know who the hell is advocating that. Some think its just fucking stupid and morally wrong and a strategic mistake to be in Iraq. I guess to people like you though its either supporting the war or "cutting and running from the evil doers".

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

people accuse me, because of my age of not knowing about the past, but has it been so long that ya'll have forgotten about the major wars the USA has faught in just the past 100 years (leaving out minor wars and non-wars and wars the USA did not fight in) WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War...people fucking died...all the time...


Um, and most decided Vietnam was a mistake. Damn...you're so ignorant of history your bringing up fucking VIETNAM in order to argue in FAVOR of the Iraq war? X_X


quote:

did we take our toys and go home cause we got over there and went oh shit, the bullets are real? NO....we got into it, because we saw a need and we finished what we said we were going to do....


In VIETNAM? Read a history book, we left that place with our tail between our legs. Just like we will in Iraq(its only inevitable).

EDIT: Oh and btw, you sure are talking tough, "take our toys and go home", "the bullets are real" etc.

If you feel so strongly that we should continue the fight over there then PLEASE, sign up and get YOUR fat ass over there in camos.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

and just because the fighting was over did we leave? NO you fucking people....we don't pack up our bags because the dictator is dead...that just leaves space for a new dictator to move in....psychology/sociology 101....change is uncomfortable...individuals and groups will hold on to miserable familiarity rather than go through uncomfortable change no matter how good the outcome would be on the other side of that change....

btw...if Hitler had had half the pep and speaking skills that Osama bin Laden  and some of these other Muslim leaders have....we would still have concentration camps around the world....cause some of those SS soldiers lived to a ripe old age off the art and jewelry they stole from Jews they killed and took to concentration camps....

end rant...one to beam, scotty
chelle


Great, another lame comparison of the Islamic radicals to the Nazis.

< Message edited by InnocentYoungSub -- 9/29/2007 12:28:52 PM >

_____________________________

I live for.. I die for.. I breathe for..

(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: my morning political rant - 9/29/2007 1:09:55 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Let's just unleash our soldiers and let them kill the bad guys, no matter how innocent they may disguise themselves--Otherwise, we'll continue to look MONSTROUSLY incompetent, and the enemies will continue to take potshots at our troops from "churches" (Mosques, but we can't discriminate "just" because these are hideouts of the Moslem fanatic-death-cult!), hospitals, and bombing their OWN streets to kill our troops...
Because we're afraid of being "unliked" by our enemies, we don't occupy the areas we clear of enemies, so the enemies are free to reinfest it. We are already hated by the world--allegedly--let's just win one, and see if they start respecting us, whether because it's the right thing to to, or because they once more fear the consequences of screwing with us!
Our kill ratio is 30-to-1, so we're already "winning"--barely...By now, Iraq should have been flattened...what are we afraid of? Why are we not USING our awesome might? Whether to make clear the consequences, or "just" to save American soldiers?


EPGAH:
Seldom have I read someone so completely unaware of what warfare is or how it is conducted.
From where do you draw your wealth of misinformation?
For someone who seems so bloodthirsty I can only suggest that you trundle your porcine self down to your nearest recruiter and tell them how you feel about their slovenly attempts at fighting a war.
Please do not misunderstand me.  I wish you no ill only a chance to fulfill your destiny as the saviour of humanity...well that and a chance to see first hand what you think you are talking about.
thompson 

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 60
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