RE: About the word "Sadist" (Full Version)

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curiousexplorer -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 4:40:26 PM)

"A sadist is not simply some one who enjoys inflicting pain. "

Buy a dictionary. This is in fact exactly what a sadist is.
Sadist - Someone who indulges in sadism, or who gains pleasure, especially sexual, from inflicting pain on others.

"A sadist ONLY gleans pleasure when their victims do NOT WANT whatever they are doing to them. "

Well yes, their pleasure is increased with the pain, so obviously the less willing the more pain. But the main ingredient is inflicting pain, not unwillingness. If unwillingness was the key then it would be rape or rape roleplay, not sadism, which would be the motivator.

"Think of it this way, LordVelvet - Do we really want to use the same word that the FBI and Law Enforcement use to describe serial killers?
I sure don't want to be grouped with them. :shrugs: "

It's not about what you want. Or what some group wants. It's about language. If you don't like sharing characteristics of serial killers, that is an issue you need to address.

"PS. I still hate being grouped with serial killers, rapists, and torturing sadists. "

That is your issue, not the words. The fact is the traits you share with some of those people put you all into the category of sadists. But the traits you don't share put them into the category of serial killers and tortures. Rape is power and control, not necessarily pain, though of course there are overlapping offenders.

"Its so interesting, when did people become so defensive that they jump on and attack any view which they may not understand"

Read the OP. It attacks language and concepts it didn't understand, because it was overly defensive about sharing traits with violent offenders.

"I also spend a helluva lot of time explaining the truth to peoples misconceptions about D/s - and some of that could be ended if we quit using words like sadism because in reality they dont actually fit what MOST of us are"

Forget about trying to make people understand your kink, and concentrate on understanding language, so you can communicate better with people, no matter what agenda you have. Sadism fits all sadists, whether they are kinksters or criminals.



DiurnalVampire -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 4:47:04 PM)

My reply was in response to you, Stephann, only bcasue you were ahead of me in the line.  You know me on here too well to think I was poking at your response.
Seemes the entire thread is saying the same thing. Dont start an argument against something when you are doing so on faulty premises.

DV



onlyHisgirl -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 4:53:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sachiaiko

Okie, I have another brief dialog to have with folks here regarding the word “Sadist”

A sadist is not simply some one who enjoys inflicting pain. This word is being vbastly misused here in this website – and I am concerned about it.

A sadist ONLY gleans pleasure when their victims do NOT WANT whatever they are doing to them. Hence, by the very nature of the D/s lifestyle, most people are not sadists. A sadist would choose a submissive with a hard limit on pain, then hurt that slave despite their safe word, limits, etc for the pure satisfaction of hurting some one against their will. Sadists are people who are very dangerous, end up killing people often, and don’t care for their victims at all.

A dominant enters into a contract with a submissive, they have agreements and safewords and make certain that they hold up their end of the bargain. If you enjoy pain play, giving or receiving, you align yourself with a person who matches you in this desire A Dom who likes to inflict pain finds a sub who loves to receive pain. This *Can Not* be called “Sadism”

As a submissive, I would stay far away from anyone claiming to be a sadist. Or, I would ask them what they think the word means. If you wish to be a “Victim” rather then a “Submissive” Then by all means find that person who matches your desire, but don’t tell yourself that you are a submissive when in fact you are a victim.

This is semantics, however it is important semantics. The fact so many new dominants refer to themselves as sadists without a clear understanding ofwhat that actually entails creates a picture about this community that does not actually fit. Statistically, D/s relationships last a long time, are more honest, and handle their problems more up front because the nature of our relationships requires clear communication for issues of safety etc. This is a GOOD Thing. That is the type of thing which should be pointed to when the “vanilla” people talk about our lifestyle, not the fact a bunch of people are proud of being sadists, and isn’t that disgusting?

It may seem like a small issue, but It’s not. If we are seen as sadists who love to hurt folks against their will and we’re really one step up from rapists and murderers, then our alternative way of life will never gain acceptance. So despite the semantics, use your words intelligently, clearly, and responsibly. Shy away from words like “Sadism” because they do not accurately depict the truth of most dominant people in this lifestyle. Take the time to clearly discuss what pain play is to you, or any other aspect of this lifestyle. Be responsible in how you communicate and speak, and we will gain positively from that as a community.

Thanks, guys.

Mistress Sachi.

i am totally confused about this post. 
my Daddy is not a rapist...hmmm....uh, i like it when Daddy puts me in pain (sometimes) and other times it's against my will (which sometimes i also enjoy other times -- it really, really hurts).  i'm not a victim, i just get off on pain at times...



velvetears -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 5:06:37 PM)

FR

According to your definition of sadist, where does that leave the  masochists?  What is a masochist then?  i am a masochist but i don't like all kinds of pain. i shake in fear of the dentist and if i stub my toe i scream and grab my foot cursing.  There are degrees to everything. 

i have met hard core sadists who have slaves that are not masochist and they prefer this. They don't enjoy playing with masochists.  They enjoy their slaves suffering and not enjoying the infliction of pain they administer. This still does not put them in the category of serial killer or clinical sadist. 

i feel your op was very hostile and judgmental, especially when you said "isn't it disgusting".... no it isn't it's absolutely delicious, thank god there are different levels of sadism or no one would ever want to play with me [:D]



sachiaiko -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 5:16:57 PM)

Look folks. I am not saying that there arent definitions of sadism that DOESN'T involve Non-concent. But do you REALLY wanna use a word which often times brings to mind Murderers, rapists, and sociopaths? Hey, if you wanna call yerself a sadist, thats fine by me. I simply am likely to pass you over personally, and i sincerely doubt i am alone in this. Its not a matter of protecting your "identity" as a sexual sadist, for criminies sake. :laughs: Its almost funny, this identity as a sadist is so important, but its an identity WRAPPED in Mental Illness, dangerous people, and often times in extreme cases ends with people DYING.

Are you aware Sexual Sadism is a psychological ILLNESS? They call it a mental disease. Basically, you're sick if you're a sadist. Now, i dont think that what most D/s relationships do is sick, consentual play is a very different thing to me. I would not call myself by a name that indicates i am mentally deranged - but hey, if thats what YOU guys wish to do, by all means. Go ahead. jump on the mental illness bandwagon, hand out popsickles and candy canes Hell, you can give each other name tags which say "Hi, my names James and I'm a Sadist! My shrink says i'm getting better, but i fooled him! HAH!" or how bout a bumber sticker which says, "Curious about sadism!? Ask me a question!"

In other words, i'm not calling YOU sick. I'm saying that why are you calling yourself by a name that INDICATES that you are sick when you arent?! Why do you proudly declare you have a mental illness? In a world where labels have power, why would you choose a label which declares you ILL? Personally, choosing to be seen as "sick" is proof of the illness if you ask me. but again, far be it from me to take away your "IDENTITY" if you rely so heavily on that word to inform people as to who and what you are, then by all means, go ahead. Have at it. :winks.:

Here's a few quotes from medical journals, medical dictionaries and the like. Maybe you guys didn't realize WHY the word Sadism bothers me so much, maybe you still wont realize it after this email, and maybe a couple of you WILL realize why, and actually decide you would rather not be called mentally ill.

So, in closing. Even if one definition of sadism may involve consenting partners, ALL definitions indicate a mental illness, none of which is something a person should likely be proud of. I dont believe the majority of D/s relationships are mentally ill, which is WHY i do not think SADIST or SADISM is a bad descriptive word to describe us.

My 67 cents. Again.


Here's those quotes from a few sites.

Definition of Sexual sadism
Sexual sadism: Individuals with sexual sadism disorder have persistent fantasies in which sexual excitement results from inflicting psychological or physical suffering (including humiliation and terror) on a sexual partner. This disorder is different from minor acts of aggression in normal sexual activity; for example, rough sex. In some cases, sexual sadists are able to find willing partners to participate in the sadistic activities.
 
At its most extreme, sexual sadism involves illegal activities such as rape, torture, and even murder, in which case the death of the victim produces sexual excitement. It should be noted that while rape may be an expression of sexual sadism, the infliction of suffering is not the motive for most rapists, and the victim's pain generally does not increase the rapist's sexual excitement. Rather, rape involves a combination of sex and gaining power over the victim. These individuals need intensive psychiatric treatment and may be jailed for these activities.
 
 
AAAAND another one!
 
Sadism is a sexual disorder. A sadist is a person who is aroused by the suffering or humiliation of another person. Sadism with a consenting partner is not always illegal. Laws vary depending upon where you live.
Sadism involves causing physical or psychological pain or suffering to another person. As long as it occurs with a consenting partner, sexual sadism is not considered to be a psychological disorder. It is considered a disorder when it causes unhappiness to the person with it, causes problems with work, social setting, or family, or when there is potential danger to another individual. If the other person is not willing, sadism can be a severe and even criminal disorder.
Like some masochists, some sadists require the pain or humiliation in order to function sexually. Others may engage in more typical sexual activities at some times and sadistic activities at other times. Sadists often seek out masochists as sexual partners. The sexual arousal in sadism is directly related to the suffering of the other person.
Some acts involve actual physical violence, including cutting, burning, or beating. Other acts involve domination, such as making the other person crawl or keeping him or her in a cage. Still other acts involve humiliation.
Sexual sadism is much more common in males. Heterosexual masochists usually have difficulty in finding sadistic female partners. However, the incidence in females appears to be on the rise. Most sadists begin having fantasies about these activities in childhood. They usually begin experimenting with partners by early adulthood.
Some people may engage in sadistic acts with consenting partners for many years without ever actually injuring anyone. Other sadists may need to increase the severity over time. These sadists may eventually seriously injure or kill someone. Sexual sadists who attack nonconsenting victims tend to continue until legal authorities catch them.
Sexual sadism involving unwilling victims is extremely difficult to treat. Sexual sadism with consenting partners is treated with psychotherapy from a specialist in the field. Contact the State Board of Mental Health in your state for the name of a specialist.



sachiaiko -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 5:28:49 PM)

For christ sake. I dont think Pain play is disgusting - i think proudly waving a flag that says "I'm mentally ILL" is disgustting.

*I* like pain play, i would NOT call myself a sadist, not ever. Because it does not acurately describe who and what i am. But i still love playing with pain. :shrugs: I am no different then most of you who proudly name yourselves sadists except i refuse to be labeled mentally ill, and think its sad that to keep ones identity you must cling to that label like a lifeline. THATS what i think is sad or disgusting. I'm not judgemental at all, i am simply saying why would you choose to be refered to as mentally ill if you're not? Doesnt make sense to me. Period. Hate me for what i'm saying if you want. Either way, in my way of thinking, its weird as hell to cling to a description that is so self derogatory. I'm actually standing UP for people who like pain play and saying find a word that doesnt call us sick. Cause we're not!!

:rolls her eyes: Sheesh. People just have no ability to think. And by the way, i love masochists, and there ARE degrees of everything most certainly, but the term masochist also is a mental illness. Most the subs i play with would MUCH rather be called pain sluts then masochists. :shrugs: Not derogatory in the same way at all. They arent mentally ill!

Mistress Sachi



PlayfulOne -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 5:39:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sachiaiko
:rolls her eyes: Sheesh. People just have no ability to think. And by the way, i love masochists, and there ARE degrees of everything most certainly, but the term masochist also is a mental illness. Most the subs i play with would MUCH rather be called pain sluts then masochists. :shrugs: Not derogatory in the same way at all. They arent mentally ill!
Mistress Sachi


translation:  we don't agree with you

Call me mentally ill, sick, demented whatever you like.  I know what the word means.  I am a sadist.  There is a reason I don't play to that level with people who I do not have a connection with and care about.

K



camille65 -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 5:47:24 PM)

Honestly you are coming across really negatively. What is the underlying issue? This can't all be over a word..



velvetears -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 5:49:36 PM)

You know most people with mental illness don't like to be called sick either.  Try calling someone who is delusional a psychotic and see what kind of reception you get lol.  i personally think you feel some kind of guilt or shame over what it is you desire because you associate it with people or things you find reprehensible.  Get therapy for that so you aren't so conflicted and find peace about what it is you like to do.  i have no such need to use the term pain slut just because some will take the term masochist as meaning mental illness - i could give a rats ass what anyone thinks, if i am ok with it what do i care. 



Aswad -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 5:50:46 PM)

Thank you, Archer, for saving me the time of going through those points.
And for doing so in far less space than I would have used. [;)]

To the OP:

As someone who is also a sadist, I have found the colloquial use imprecise, but not nearly to the extent that you have managed here, and I would say it's a rather offensive way to present things. Not just to me, getting lumped in with people like Ted Bundy, but also to my willing partners who are ascribed a victim status, the real victims who have fallen prey to people like Ted, and the families those victims have left behind.

For that matter, sociopathy is distinct from sadism, even in the medical field. The archetypical sociopath could not derive pleasure from inflicting as a sadist can, at least not to the same extent, as such a person actually lacks the empathy that is involved in sadism, at least my brand of it. Whether one is wired for more or not should also be ancillary, IMO, if one isn't going to introduce mindcrime.

</vent>

Health,
al-Aswad.



Noah -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 6:23:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sachiaiko

For christ sake. I dont think Pain play is disgusting - i think proudly waving a flag that says "I'm mentally ILL" is disgustting.


Is mental illness so morally repugnant to you? The people who genuinely are mentally ill must positively make you throw up if the very idea that someone would share a noun in common with these sick people disgusts you enough to inspire a public tirade.

Irrespective of any other issues raised by you or your respondents, I don't see anything more derogatory in the the word "sadist" than in the word "depressive," or the term "cancer patient", for that matter, insofar as we are--as you insist we should--considering the term as a clinical diagnosis.

I find myself picturing you rampaging through music stores setting fire to any recoding from the band who choose to call themselves "The Hives." In fact let me pause to ask: have you posted in apiary newsgroups railing against the repugnant-to-you practice of calling "bee nests" by the name of a human skin disease, honey?

It wouldn't be an ounce more silly than what you're up to here.






RRafe -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 6:33:55 PM)

I'm a sensualist. I care for those I do things to.



Aswad -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 6:42:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sachiaiko

I simply am likely to pass you over personally, and i sincerely doubt i am alone in this.


Please do. You'll have to get in line, though. The trucks only carry so many at a time.
As Stephan put it, just stay out of the deep end of the pool, and we will be fine.
Any further contributions from me would not be very courteous.
For that reason, I'll leave both you and the thread alone.

Rejected,
al-Aswad.



RRafe -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 6:49:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sachiaiko

For christ sake. I dont think Pain play is disgusting - i think proudly waving a flag that says "I'm mentally ILL" is disgustting.

*I* like pain play, i would NOT call myself a sadist, not ever. Because it does not acurately describe who and what i am. But i still love playing with pain. :shrugs: I am no different then most of you who proudly name yourselves sadists except i refuse to be labeled mentally ill, and think its sad that to keep ones identity you must cling to that label like a lifeline. THATS what i think is sad or disgusting. I'm not judgemental at all, i am simply saying why would you choose to be refered to as mentally ill if you're not? Doesnt make sense to me. Period. Hate me for what i'm saying if you want. Either way, in my way of thinking, its weird as hell to cling to a description that is so self derogatory. I'm actually standing UP for people who like pain play and saying find a word that doesnt call us sick. Cause we're not!!

:rolls her eyes: Sheesh. People just have no ability to think. And by the way, i love masochists, and there ARE degrees of everything most certainly, but the term masochist also is a mental illness. Most the subs i play with would MUCH rather be called pain sluts then masochists. :shrugs: Not derogatory in the same way at all. They arent mentally ill!

Mistress Sachi


In actuality, this would be a research playground for the average shrink. One of the keys pointers in mental illness is to deny it.



celticlord2112 -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 6:53:50 PM)

quote:

For christ sake. I dont think Pain play is disgusting - i think proudly waving a flag that says "I'm mentally ILL" is disgustting.


I think poor grammar and spelling in a rant about word usage is disgusting (as well as perversely ironic).





MadRabbit -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 6:58:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sachiaiko

Look folks. I am not saying that there arent definitions of sadism that DOESN'T involve Non-concent. But do you REALLY wanna use a word which often times brings to mind Murderers, rapists, and sociopaths?



Yes, because there isnt a better or more honest word to describe what I do and enjoy.

My enjoyment of flicking pain, my excitement at the tears, grimaces, cries and moans from that pain, and my pleasure in making someone suffer are desires shared by those rapists, murderers, and sociopaths.

Nor am I a person who solely does things because the other person enjoys it. Consentual and ethical are what make me different then the three categories presented here. I've done things that the partner wasnt enjoying in the least at face value, but still consented and wanted because the act of enduring the non enjoyable things made her hot. People process pain in different ways and get enjoyment in different ways. There is quite a few people who get no direct enjoyment from the pain itself, but find gratification and pleasure in the sole act of having it inflicted on them.

Rather than try and hide from the label of "sadist" because of X, Y, and Z excuses, I much rather embrace it in an attempt to come to turns and peace with that dark part of me.

Personally, I find it highly annoying when people try and put some kind of politically correct spin on the things that I do and say I am. You would probably get along well with all the people who both Top and Bottom, but still arent Switches.

I know I am demented. Stop telling me I am not.



CuriousLord -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 6:58:36 PM)

Hum.  Bullet point time.
  • Many "sadists" who have consentual slaves would perfer to be inflicting pain on innocent victims.  For some reason or another, they decide against it.  (Or do they?)
  • One can be compelled to tolerate pain one does not enjoy.  This, oblivously, includes threats.  Perhaps less immediate, there is also the matter of playing one's desires against them.  Many masochists truly hate being their nature; they are, nonetheless, compelled to follow it.  They do hate it.
  • Words have different meanings.  Semantic arguments are not valid in noncongruent uses.  Words tend to be similar from use to use, but the purpose is to get an idea across, not to always use the same word for the same thing.  (Semantics matters when words are "twisted", causing misintepretation of statements or concepts.)
  • You strike me as uncomfortable with sadomasochism.  That's fine; many of us feel this way.  Nonetheless, this community maintains an intentional phobia of critizing others' kinks.



MadRabbit -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 7:02:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sachiaiko

Sheesh. People just have no ability to think.


Yep, they sure dont.



Noah -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 7:02:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sachiaiko

Look folks. I am not saying that there arent definitions of sadism that DOESN'T involve Non-concent.


In fact you said precisely that:
quote:

ORIGINAL: sachiaiko

If you enjoy pain play, giving or receiving, you align yourself with a person who matches you in this desire A Dom who likes to inflict pain finds a sub who loves to receive pain. This *Can Not* be called “Sadism”


Admitting that you had made a rash and insupportable claim might have done more for your credibility than simply denying that you had made it.


quote:

Here's a few quotes from medical journals, medical dictionaries and the like. Maybe you guys didn't realize WHY the word Sadism bothers me so much, maybe you still wont realize it after this email, and maybe a couple of you WILL realize why, and actually decide you would rather not be called mentally ill.

So, in closing. Even if one definition of sadism may involve consenting partners, ALL definitions indicate a mental illness, none of which is something a person should likely be proud of. I dont believe the majority of D/s relationships are mentally ill, which is WHY i do not think SADIST or SADISM is a bad descriptive word to describe us.


From the time of the advent of medical text and reference books until the present generation, one could cite authoritative texts which held that homosexuality is a sickness.

The fact that this claim appeared in text and reference books didn't make the claim true. It made the books false, in just that regard.

You and I both know that "the-thing-you-you-don't-want-called-sadism" is not in itself a disease, any more than homosexuality is. Would homosexuals have been better advised to run and hide from the word "homosexual" so as to avoid being lumped in with <shudder> sick people?

Should they have said: "I'm not homosexual, 'cause that's an illness. I'm a Same-Gender Slut"? Would this have been your counsel? It seems to parallel your advice to self-identifying, consensual (if you'll pardon the expression) sadists and masochists.

Either way, I wouldn't agree with this advice. I think that that fact that homosexuals owned the term in all its glory is one important part of the story which ends with homosexuality not being generally and credibly considered a disease any longer.






MadRabbit -> RE: About the word "Sadist" (9/28/2007 7:15:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sachiaiko

Are you aware Sexual Sadism is a psychological ILLNESS?


You know, Guy Baldwin once wrote (in paraphrase) that the problem with psychological studies regarding sexual perversion is that the vast majority of subjects that psychologists have had to study on are the one's who are in fact mentally ill and demented and not the ones who can be categorized as "normal".

I've been witness to a number of psychological studies and references presented here in an attempt to debunk or devalue kinks and I have yet to find one that I haven't been able to argue or shoot down, since these theories and profiles are rarely anything more than generalizations.

But what can you expect from an organization that listed masturbation as a mental illness less than a century ago?



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