A new thorn in our lives (Full Version)

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QuietMaster4u -> A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 10:11:14 AM)

"What did that sign say???" Ouch, that hurt *rubbing head from getting hit over the head with it*
Glad I have a hard head, or things like this would of taken me by now.

Okay, some of us have danced together before. I know some of the players, of this game and look forward to their input. Even some of the people who have disagreed with me.

But, I can't help but wonder how what we're going through now. With this war on terrorism, how much of it (at least for those who remember viet nam) is similiar? Now, I'm not saying that this war is "like" Viet Nam. But, rather the public sentiment. The debates about why we went over and was it the right thing?

I thank all in advance, for a good dance to be had



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 10:40:36 AM)

It wasn't even new in Vietnam, people were furious over going to war in every war the USA has decided to involve itself (and I daresay there have been protestors against every single war that has ever occurred). I think simply that people's questioning of the government's honesty and judgement had reached a huge level and the people's level of overall quality of living and ability to communicate and organize makes it a much more impressive and louder voice than before.



darkinshadows -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 10:56:13 AM)

I am probably as tired with these threads, as imtempting is fed up with the 'religion' ones - lol

It really doesn't matter why the war began. Nor does it matter about why vietnam. Or whether they are the same, or different. Was it right to go over there? Was it right to fight? None of that is the point, not now. What really matters is truth.
And the fact is that the governments lied and misrepresented its actions.
Maybe if there was trust in the people, then there would be respect for the governments and visa versa.

Lies and misrepresentation always come back to haunt you. It's how you deal with it now, that matters.

Peace and Love



Gauge -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 11:03:43 AM)

quote:

It wasn't even new in Vietnam, people were furious over going to war in every war the USA has decided to involve itself


I don't think that people were furious over the Revolutionary War. Nor were they furious over WW2 after Pearl Harbor being attacked. Overall public sentiment was in favor of these wars.

The problem with the Iraq War now is that the public just isn't backing it. Overall, I think that we as a nation believed in the Gulf War because there was viable evidence for us to be there. The current war was initiated based on bad intelligence gathering and basic falsehoods that have come to light. Based on that, public opinion has wavered and the support base for this war has eroded significantly.

I am not a news hound nor am I really interested in politics so please don't attack me based on those fronts because I am unarmed. What I state above is my opinion, nothing more.



Lordandmaster -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 11:19:06 AM)

I agree with Dark Angel and Gauge. People aren't supporting the Iraq War because it was initiated under false pretences, not because they oppose war in general. (How many people objected to military action in Afghanistan? Hardly any.) People are really stupid sometimes, but they're not stupid all the time, and a government that baldly lies to them isn't going to last very long.



brightspot -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 12:29:11 PM)

I am old enough to remember the Vietnam War and of it's Casualties
those young kids who died there and those who came back here and could not
face life here at home either, because of the Horrors seen over there. Most are
homeless, drug addicts, or have opted to take their own lives, to rid themselves of the
nightmares.

I was 10 years old when I was participating in the War Demonstrations, after losing a 19 year old cousin in Vietnam having been blown apart by a hand-grenade.

Yes, I am Damned Scared with many concerns for the young people of ours over there and for the USA in general.
I think and I fear that bringing our young people home is not going to be an easy task.
I don't find insurgents and/or suicide bombers any easier to fight or defeat, than the sneaky almost invisible way the "enemy" fought back in Vietnam.

I lean towards thinking it is an unwinable War.
And with the current Administration, will probably let it go on and will not own their mistakes until there again comes Mass losses of our own. Have you ever witnessed the Vietnam War Memorial? It is absolutely overwheming and unbelieveable!

I feel the Apathy in the younger generations, and their lack of skills to organize and fight for what is not right in this country and it's leaders.
In the 60's we had a Strong Force of vocal protesters who had no fear of fighting in the streets for what they thought was wrong or right in this country.
This Force was a very deciding piece of the Government crumbling and the ending of the Vietnam War. This current Apathy in our younger men and women does scare the hell out of me.

I do not believe we will bring about Peace and Security with this War, but instead mistrust and more hate towards the USA and the spilling of our blood, and obviously anyone who supports Us (referring to the recent bombings in London).
I think if we were to have been possitive about finding weapons of Mass Destruction and found them, things might be somewhat different. And things may become somewhat different when Sadam is brought to trail and everyone will see really what an Evil man he was and the suffering of many that he was the cause of directly or indirectly.

But will this Really then bring the War to a faster end or exspediate the Eraser of Terrorism....I believe not.....Terrorism is now in our backyard and I don't see it going away anytime soon......A Very Hard thing to fight against or Stop!

I will stop now, before I get further into my thoughts of the Current Administration and the Nominations of probably two Supreme Court Justices and how that is going to change this Country Sooooooo far Right that it is going to get really, reallt Frightening!

*Brightspot




grits -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 2:34:23 PM)

I was in college during Nam, and my now ex husband was in Viet Nam as a Marine. I've seen it from both sides, and watched subsequent wars with great interest since I have 3 sons. From my view point, there is one huge difference this time around -- the American people, pro or con on the war, are supportive and appreciative of the American military and their families. Those qualities were severely lacking during Nam. I don't think it makes us un-American to oppose the war, the president, etc., or even more American to be in favor of them..just Americans who have the right to voice their opinions and the right to vote.

grits



stormsfate -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 2:43:48 PM)

I support the war, although I don't believe Iraq is the place to fight it.


f



FangsNfeet -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 3:09:31 PM)

So has anyone here read the book "The Art of War" ?

Most of it makes darn good sense in its stratagies. Puppet governments, mingleling, and such have always beem a big strategy in winning WAR and help keep it clean. The Romans with Eastern Europe, The English with Scottland and Ireland, Holland with India and Africa. The colonial race in the Bahamas Jamacia Cuba Aruba Bermuda area. All made from the reasons of power, ecconomical trade, spreading religion, and principal. So we have the "Doing the right thing for the wrong reason," and "Doing the wrong thing for the right reason" complex. Everone who went in had there own personal intentions weither it be good, bad, right, or wrong.

Now we have the US in IRAQ / Middle East for all the same reasons. Yes, Oil is a big factor but spreading Democracy is not a just "cover up" reason. Everyone has there own interst or intentions for going to IRAQ. So perhaps two birds are getting killed with one stone. A puppet government Afghanistan and Iraq may become, but that's the alternative victory versus total distruction. Yes I do see more and more troops comming back but some will always stay. Not to always fight and be combatient per say but none the less keep an eye on things as many past armies of other countries have done when settleing on land.

Another Vietnam war is something I don't see happening with the war on terror. After all, we have better cooperation with the the rest of the middle east than we did with China at the time and aren't so fearfull of pissing Saudi, Lebonon, Kawait, and Egypt off because of it. As of Palastien, well they are just to damn busy with Jerusulum to have the same effect that China did during Nam. So this allows us to go in and acctually do the job with sufficient stratagy this time.

As for the debates of doing the wrong thing for the right reason or doing the right thing for the wrong reason, it will always be debated and discussed. It will always have to do with politics having people sticking up for there fellow party members trying to gain or convert more into there group versus thoughs who want to say that everything is wrong with Big Government.

That's all I have to say




Lordandmaster -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 4:03:54 PM)

There are several books called The Art of War. Which one do you mean?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

So has anyone here read the book "The Art of War" ?




stormsfate -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 5:02:31 PM)

But there is only one *The* Art of War....by Sun Tzu :)


I have not read it in its entirety, but what I did read I found profound.



f



Lordandmaster -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 7:38:27 PM)

There are several Arts of War. The most famous one is by Sunzi, of course. There is another one by Sun Bin, a descendant of Sunzi. And there are several Renaissance European treatises with the same title (which is where translators got "Art of War" for Sunzi in the first place--the Chinese title doesn't exactly mean that).



pinkpleasures -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 8:08:34 PM)

quote:

I agree with Dark Angel and Gauge. People aren't supporting the Iraq War because it was initiated under false pretences, not because they oppose war in general. (How many people objected to military action in Afghanistan? Hardly any.) People are really stupid sometimes, but they're not stupid all the time, and a government that baldly lies to them isn't going to last very long.

Lordandmaster


i wonder to myself how long the Iraquri and Afganistani Wars can be conducted before a draft is instigated. i don't have any data...but i do hear news reports of the reserves serving much longer than their orginial commitments, and of returning to serve a second tour of duty. It seems to me that at some point the draft will be unavoidable...and then the younger generation may be galvanized as we once were.

God...the terrible moral choices young men faced. It was a time when flunking out of college could literally cost you your life because you'd be facing the draft. i remember the lottery; watching the television the night the birth dates were called; and feeling a sense of relief when no one i knew had a high number...but knowing full well that only meant that other young men would be called before the men i knew and cared about. My girlfriend and i did smuggle a draft dodger across the border..we attended a college in upstate NY. But even then, we wondered if he had thought through his decision; separating himself from his country; his family; branding himself a criminal here. Amnesty for the draft dodgers did not come until when? The 1990's?

i feel the country sliding along towards a Bad Time, and nothing seems to be usable as brakes. Congress seems to be a mere puppet to Bush's foreign policies, although any 8th grader knows Bush has mislead the country. i am afraid...i am angry..and i do not feel anyone else is around to organise a protest or serve as a Voice of the People.

pinkpleasures



FangsNfeet -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 8:44:59 PM)

quote:

i wonder to myself how long the Iraquri and Afganistani Wars can be conducted before a draft is instigated.



The Draft for the US will never be reinstated. The only possible reason for this to ever happen was be if the USA was massily attacked by planes, troups, boats and such on USA soil. Land of the USA would have to be conqured and kept before any such notion will really happen.

Can you imagine the political suicide that would happen if a president reinstated the draft? He/She would go down with the most unfavored poll in history. It wouldn't cause just political suicide for one self but also His/Her intire party as well.
It's now a popular idea that the president of the US have a military service background. How Ironic is it for a country to refuse to have a draft yet demand that it's president serve in the military? It's as if we the Draft exist for anyone wanting to become the President.

Anyways, all talks about a draft are just media driven for ratings. So a few inlistment expectations haven't been meet from time to time. It's not like it's the end of the All Volunteer Service as the media paints it out to be. If only the media would also report when numbers overflow then maybe I would start listening to them more. Now that Dan Blather is gone, perhaps there may be a chance for the media to be more reportive on everything and not just what they want you to hear.



Lordandmaster -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 9:48:22 PM)

And you know this how?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

So a few inlistment expectations haven't been meet from time to time. It's not like it's the end of the All Volunteer Service as the media paints it out to be.




onceburned -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 10:09:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures
Amnesty for the draft dodgers did not come until when? The 1990's?


Actually in the 1970s both Presidents Ford and Carter offered clemency programs for Vietnam era draft dodgers. The Ford program was so weighted down with condtions that it wasn't considered a success. In contrast, Carter's program was unconditional amnesty for draft dodgers :

quote:

Draft evaders were granted unconditional amnesty automatically if there were no other legal charges pending. They would not have a criminal record. Young men who were considered draft evaders did not have to apply (in any formal sense) to get amnesty. It was a blanket amnesty granted to all draft evaders whether they had been engaged in a legal process or not. This is why no figure exists for the real number of draft evaders who benefited from the Carter program. This includes people who were never prosecuted, people who were investigated and not prosecuted, people who were indicted, people for whom charges had been brought, etc.


http://www.afsc.org/youthmil/conscientious-objection/Vietnam-war-resisters.htm

A sizeable number of people fled the military after they had become members of the armed forces. These people still face arrest and punishment.

quote:

Today military resisters who return to the United States may still face the possibility of punishment in the form of criminal prosecution or a bad discharge. GI resisters, including those living in exile, remain in legal jeopardy. No universal amnesty was ever granted them. The two 1970s limited relief programs expired decades ago. Every year a small number are arrested upon returning to the US



imtempting -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/23/2005 10:24:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I am probably as tired with these threads, as imtempting is fed up with the 'religion' ones - lol




Your correct with that statement.



pinkpleasures -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/24/2005 7:49:40 AM)

i am not tired or bored with the thread...and it's the apathy that scares me the most. i am old enough to remember the Kennedy Administration and the start of our involvment in the Vietnam War..that stupid domino theory...50,000 young men and a million Vietnamese civilians killed and Nixon extricated us under "Peace with Honor". What a joke; watching the last helicopter leave Saigon was horrifying.

W/we can ignore religion in this country -- for the most part. The US Supreme Court has been fairly strict about the "separation of church and state" doctrine. However, you cannot avoid the effects of these wars. Your taxes are being diverted from social services, such as education, to fund the wars. You are paying very high prices for gas for your car or truck. You surely know a young man (or woman) of draft age (which i think is 18 to 25 yrs old).

Kennedy told us we were sending in "military advisors" and we would never engage in combat. Johnson not only turned the situation in Vietnam into combat, he authorised covert raids into surrounding countries. Nixon authorised the Tet Offensive and other major escalations of a war no one intended the USA to win...including Nixon. It was insane.

How is what we are doing now any different? What is the end game for Afganistan? It seems clear the country will fall into complete chaos the moment we pull out; so are we staying indefinately? What is the objective in Iraq? Saddam is our prisioner, presumably to be tried before the Hague..so what objective is left to achieve? What is the end game for Iraq?

Supposing that FangsNFeet is correct; and the military just meets its obligations by imposing more and more on the reservists; they become de facto drafted members of the active armed services. Reservists did NOT join the active army/navy/etc. They offered to do one tour of duty in the event of war...and they have been exploited by the Chiefs of Staff and the Commander in Chief, Bush. They have been, for all intents and purposes, drafted.

i just do not see how this can continued unabated without a draft on the general population.

pinkpleasures



QuietMaster4u -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/24/2005 2:29:24 PM)

Pink -

There are two age brackets for the draft 18-25, which you stated. I found another bracket, which extends the age to 26. Selective service maintains eligibility between 18-34. While researching a military draft online. There are several reference to a specialized draft with a bracket of 20-44. For those people within those specialized fields.

But the common idea on every page I had read. Was that congress was not ready to take that step. Only 10 or so, congressmen wanting to start that issue. The positive fact, I came across during that search. Was that the President could not initiate the draft, but his signature is required to finalize it. So the fight would be in the Senate and House, whether they wanted to initiate a draft or not.



SirKenin -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/24/2005 8:58:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

It wasn't even new in Vietnam, people were furious over going to war in every war the USA has decided to involve itself (and I daresay there have been protestors against every single war that has ever occurred). I think simply that people's questioning of the government's honesty and judgement had reached a huge level and the people's level of overall quality of living and ability to communicate and organize makes it a much more impressive and louder voice than before.


The majority of people are NOT furious over the war on terror. They feel it is a necessary evil, especially after 9/11, and actually support Bush. That was the number one reason why Bush was re-elected.

It was a select few nitwits that were against the war, the typical tree hugger crew, that are against anything and everything as long as they can smoke a joint while they protest.

The truth is war is good for a country. It is good for an economy. It is good for a President. Nobody listens to a President more than when the country is at war.



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