RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs???

RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (Full Version)

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Bearlee -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/1/2007 9:16:16 PM)
Dang, if that is the case...it seems somebody really dropped the ball! Yes, more than a little sad...on all counts. Could be more than just the family of the woman who died will be affected by this one. b

Sanity -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/1/2007 9:18:24 PM)
And she apparently saw the detox center as her means of getting her kid(s) back. She was detoxing, totally panicked, desperate, and therefore psychotic as hell.

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/1/2007 9:23:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bearlee Dang, if that is the case...it seems somebody really dropped the ball! b Maybe. I'm not sure. Normally I'm the 1st to jump on bad cops but I'm not sure it's their fault this time. True - police are responsible for the safety of those they detain. But there comes a point for me where due dilligence is a factor. If she really did this to herself in some bizzare act of delerious cortortion in 10 minutes and the cops followed protocol then it might be a case of them doing their job - and it just didn't work that time. Besides maybe the DT's killed her in which case it isn't their fault at all. We'll see, I'm sure this is going to be investigated to death. I'm interested in what facts come out.

Gwynvyd -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/1/2007 11:11:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: Oh trust me.. once the "Good ones" find a bad apple in the bunch they are not there for long. Being technicaly a Govt. job it takes steps, and a while for them to be rooted out. But it does get done. We make thier lives a living hell in the mean time, and keep an eye on them. That is in direct opposition from what I'm seeing in our locality. While that may be the spin of the PBA and Unions, it's not reality. And you know what? You see a fellow cop assault a civilian, there's no "Government Job" bullshit. You arrest the fucker, just like you would arrest anyone found committing an assault. You see a cop shake down a dealer, there's no "Government Job" bullshit. You arrest the fucker, just like you would arrest anyone found shaking down a dealer. Either you arrest a fellow cop when you see them break the law, or YOU ARE NOT A "Good Cop", despite what you tell your children and yourself. You see, having special privileges means you're held to a higher standard. wow angry much? yes.. they do get arrested.. and then there is an internal investigation. it is finding these dirtbags who give the good ones bad names. It is the lengthy internal investigation I was speaking of that is a pain in the ass. If you have a sneaking suspicion but no proof, you have to find the proof then bust them. Just like you would _anyone_ officer or not. You need proof. No one is under or above the law. At least in my book they arent. Sorry you have aparently had a hard time with issues in your area.. but damn. Walk a mile in someone elses shoes. Gwyn

Gwynvyd -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/1/2007 11:52:02 PM)
Well according to the articles I have found.. she was most likely totaly out of it insane with Delirium Tremens as some one else posted. With DT there is no talking the person down, or them getting a hold on themselves. It is detox the hard way. You normaly get them to a treatment center before this kicks in so they can be sedated, and ride it out before they go batshit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens Apparently her family did not see to this. Her agitation, screaming, yelling, and all of her actions can be explained that she was going through DT, and no one in her family bothered to accompany her to the detox center.. and she did not notify any one properly that she had a medical condition. < hard to do when you are that far gone.. why did her family let her go like that? > You have no idea how many crazies police see. Sometimes crazy/bitchy is simply crazy/bitchy and not a medical condition. There would be more Dr's then officers in the detention centers otherwise. She was left for only 5-10 mins. very short time. No there are not cameras in every facility. It is a airport.. not a jail... I think folks are forgetting that. Airport holding areas are not high security lock ups folks.. no cameras.. no fancy anything. prob. a bench with a short chain to attach the cuffs to. A normal person would never in a million years have contorted themself in such a manner. The mere fact she is some NY City big wigs Daughter in law will make it 10 x's more sensational. IMO all walks of humans suck. I have seen some of the worst. Women raped, and beaten until thier own realtives can not even reconize them. Small children abused, and done unspeakable things that would give the worst of adults nightmares for the rest of thier lives. ( no I have not always lived in Naples... ) I have also seen fellow officers do thier damnest to track down who did these crimes, and hold the hand of the child or woman.. and do thier best to fight back tears while comforting them. I have seen them be rightously pissed when thier hands were tied and watched these bastards walk right out of jail because of some technicality.. or slime ball lawyer got them off so they could go do it again. The media plays up to the bad cop angle... and sensationalizes it. It is horrible when any one in power <any power> takes advantage over others. I can honestly say the good and mediocre far outweight the bad. Where as on the civilain side.. the bad guys far outwieght the bad cops 50,000 to 1. and have we gotten to the age where nothing is real unless some one has video taped it? Geez people. Gwyn

laurell3 -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/2/2007 1:26:38 AM)
I agree Gwynvyd and support good law enforcement whole-heartedly. The majority of cops are good cops. People that do a job and most of us would never stay at for more than a few days for not enough money. Despite the idea that police brutality is common, it is not. The few bad apples make a bad name for the rest. These people are spit on, bit, pissed on, puked on and generally treated badly on a daily basis. They deal with bs politics from all sides and risk their lives. Everyone has had a bad experience with a cop. Then again everyone has had a bad experience with a mailman or dentist too, but we dont think all mailmen or dentists are horrible do we? In this case however, I do tend to think based on the limited information presented that it's probably true that this woman should not have had the opportunity to end up dead by the handcuffs she was in. I still want to see more information, however. But to off the bat assume it was law enforcement's fault is silly. Maybe it was the policy of the airport, the airport facilities or understaffing or some moron that bought the wrong cuffs. Maybe the lady was a circus acrobat and did something that experts will agree wasn't supposed to be possible. We simply don't know enough at this point to decide that and one or two people making a bad decision doesn't mean all people are bad. l

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/2/2007 3:34:01 AM)
Right. For every bad cop on the news there are 1000 doing their job that don't make it on the news. Powered unchecked though always corrupts so this has to investigated and cops n general have to be scrutinized. Especially in my city where an old boy network is in full effect. I'm not saying the cops are right or wrong in this case. I am giving them the benifit of the doubt for now and reserving judgement until more info comes to light. At first glance it looks like it was a miracle (awkward word choice) that she was able to kill herself all things considered. I think miracles fall out of the juristiction of the police.

thompsonx -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/2/2007 5:58:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 I agree Gwynvyd and support good law enforcement whole-heartedly. The majority of cops are good cops. No...the majority of cops are not good cops otherwise there would be no need for IA. IA (internal affairs) exists because cops don't rat on one another unless they themselves face prosecution. People that do a job and most of us would never stay at for more than a few days for not enough money. I do not know where you live but in Los Angeles they start at about 50K and with overtime and what they steal and extort we are deep into six figures. All this with only a high school diploma. Despite the idea that police brutality is common, it is not. The few bad apples make a bad name for the rest. When the good ones start arresting the bad ones then I will buy your "few bad apples" mindset. These people are spit on, bit, pissed on, puked on and generally treated badly on a daily basis. Why is it that assault on a peace officer is a separate crime than assault on any other citizen...and with much higher penalty. If you say it is because they have a special position then you should also be in favor of enhanced punishment for cops who break the law. They deal with bs politics from all sides and risk their lives. Risk their lives my aching butt...cops are not even in the top ten most dangerous jobs in America. The number of cops who actually draw their weapon in the line of duty is a single digit percentage of the total number of cops. More cops are killed driving to and from work than die in "the line of duty". And one might surmise that the reason more of them die in traffic accidents is because they drive like assholes because they know they can get away with it. Everyone has had a bad experience with a cop. Then again everyone has had a bad experience with a mailman or dentist too, but we dont think all mailmen or dentists are horrible do we? I am part of everyone and I have not had a bad experience with a dentist or a letter carrier. In this case however, I do tend to think based on the limited information presented that it's probably true that this woman should not have had the opportunity to end up dead by the handcuffs she was in. I still want to see more information, however. But to off the bat assume it was law enforcement's fault is silly. Maybe it was the policy of the airport, the airport facilities or understaffing or some moron that bought the wrong cuffs. Maybe the lady was a circus acrobat and did something that experts will agree wasn't supposed to be possible. We simply don't know enough at this point to decide that and one or two people making a bad decision doesn't mean all people are bad. At this point the only thing I am sure of is that the cops did not do their sworn duty. That duty being to protect those who are in custody.

samboct -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/2/2007 6:28:49 AM)
You know- if I'd come into a room, and saw a broken sugar bowl and a 5 year old nearby, I'm not sure I'd buy his explanation of- "It just broke." While I've calculated the speed of a spud over a year (there is a finite probability that all the molecules in the spud will actually move in the same direction at once, thus giving the spud some velocity), it's a pretty safe assumption that a sugar bowl on a table, doesn't magically fall off and smash itself onto the floor. So here we have three possibilities- 1) this woman managed to strangle herself in a manner that doesn't seem to have much precedent. 2) She died of other natural causes other than strangulation, and the restraint coincidentally was across her neck. 3) Someone in the police force used excessive force to subdue her with fatal consequences and has come up with a fanciful story. I'll agree that at this point, the police force is doing everything correctly- call in an outside pathologist for the autopsy and wait for the results before accusing anybody. Options 1 and 2 are possible, and need to be ruled out before some potentially good people have a pall cast upon their career. But didn't Clint have to run "The Gauntlet" in cleaning up a police force in ummm, Phoenix? (OK, I'm joking, it's only a movie- just a funny coincidence.) Sam

GoldStallion -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/2/2007 7:27:31 AM)
I wonder about this: I wonder if when this woman was becoming an alcoholic and realised her life was falling apart, she ever had any inkling at all that the circumstances of her, apparently completely manmade, early demise would be discussed on a BDSM site message board by a load of perverts. Life can really take some fucking weird turns.

Gwynvyd -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/2/2007 8:00:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoldStallion I wonder about this: I wonder if when this woman was becoming an alcoholic and realised her life was falling apart, she ever had any inkling at all that the circumstances of her, apparently completely manmade, early demise would be discussed on a BDSM site message board by a load of perverts. Life can really take some fucking weird turns. Damn.. good point. Here is to hoping our deaths are never reported on the news! Gwyn

farglebargle -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/2/2007 8:53:45 AM)
quote: Right. For every bad cop on the news there are 1000 doing their job For ever bad cop on the news there are 50 bad cops NOT on the news. Those 1000 KNOW who the 51 bad cops are, and since they don't do anything about it, that makes all 1051 cops Bad. ( They could either make them retire, arrest the Bad Cop, or some would suggest they could execute them if they won't voluntarily retire. Either way, by doing nothing about a known Bad Cop, the Good Cops ain't Good anymore. )

Celeste43 -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/2/2007 9:08:59 AM)
Apparently, the sheriff of that county has had several wrongful deaths suits successfully prosecuted against him and yet he's still in charge. The sad thing here is that only now are they doing the right thing and only because the dead woman's mother in law is an important political figure in New York City.

KenDckey -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/2/2007 3:36:59 PM)
I worked at the passenger counter at Travis AFB for 3 years. Is wierd what ticks people off. they can show up days late and wonder why we didn't hold the airplane even and get all irate. Then some take it with a grain of salt. Hard to say what happend is total conjecture.

EvilGenie -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/3/2007 9:20:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: ORIGINAL: EvilGenie Ok, whatever. I can see that intelligent debate/discussion and one's own views and thoughts will not be respected on this thread. Discuss away, me and my x-ray helmet are going now. Perhaps you should read other posts where no brain power was registered on the gray matter meter, since I seem to have all of these handy gadgets, why not one of those too? [:D] Be Well All! EG The 'view' you posted was that police should be trained, as you allegedly are, to 'just know' without benefit of intake assessments or diagnostic tools, whether someone is a violent danger to others, or just in distress. If you want to run away when asked to explain how that works, feel free. I don't run nor did I, however, you with your inane comebacks as to x-ray helmets and 'must be nice (s)', instead of posing a clear question, did not require an answer from me. Those who ask me a question get an answer. Those who smart ass with an attack guised as a question and poor disguises at that, what is there to respond to? I was quite clear in what I have to say and also agreed that police academies have shallow psych components. My 'view' as put forth by you, was never my view that all should be trained as I am, blah blah. I don't do should so don't should on me. I have/had no more real interest in this thread and therefore moved on. Perhaps you could do a bit of the same. Have a great discussion all. I already moved on to a couple of others which I have greater interest in at this time. Be Well! EG

farglebargle -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/3/2007 9:26:39 AM)
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jtT6mK0J-jZRgOQhUl8y_McJ-GCwD8S1O0IO2 PHOENIX (AP) — A private investigator who watched an autopsy of a woman who died after being handcuffed and detained at the Phoenix airport said bruises were scattered across her body, indicating there was a struggle, an attorney for the woman's family said. An autopsy conducted Tuesday on Carol Anne Gotbaum was inconclusive, and toxicology results needed to determine a cause of death will not be available for a few weeks, a county medical examiner said. Gotbaum's family accuses police of manhandling the New York woman when they arrested her Friday. They have hired an attorney to monitor the police investigation into her death, a private investigator to watch the official autopsy and a pathologist who performed a second autopsy Tuesday night.

Alumbrado -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/3/2007 12:04:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EvilGenie quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: ORIGINAL: EvilGenie Ok, whatever. I can see that intelligent debate/discussion and one's own views and thoughts will not be respected on this thread. Discuss away, me and my x-ray helmet are going now. Perhaps you should read other posts where no brain power was registered on the gray matter meter, since I seem to have all of these handy gadgets, why not one of those too? [:D] Be Well All! EG The 'view' you posted was that police should be trained, as you allegedly are, to 'just know' without benefit of intake assessments or diagnostic tools, whether someone is a violent danger to others, or just in distress. If you want to run away when asked to explain how that works, feel free. I don't run nor did I, however, you with your inane comebacks as to x-ray helmets and 'must be nice (s)', instead of posing a clear question, did not require an answer from me. Those who ask me a question get an answer. Those who smart ass with an attack guised as a question and poor disguises at that, what is there to respond to? I was quite clear in what I have to say and also agreed that police academies have shallow psych components. My 'view' as put forth by you, was never my view that all should be trained as I am, blah blah. I don't do should so don't should on me. I have/had no more real interest in this thread and therefore moved on. Perhaps you could do a bit of the same. Have a great discussion all. I already moved on to a couple of others which I have greater interest in at this time. Be Well! EG My apologies... I clearly had you confused with the poster who said "I am a social worker now with developmentally disabled and MR ( I won't get into the difference here), having worked in medicine prior to this, and I am in complete agreement with backing off. In fact one of the first things learned, and law enforcement should be taught the same, is to make sure the area is safe and back away until the 'episode' has passed." Now that you've made it clear that you never posted anything resembling that, I won't make the mistake of asking you for clarification as to how law enforcement could be trained to back away, when they have no means of knowing who or what conditions they are dealing with. [8\|] [8\|]

EvilGenie -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/4/2007 1:57:31 PM)
and your point is?? Hope y'alls had fun with whatever the point may be. As I have said, I no longer find this thread interesting, hence, am not posting. This flipped up on the home page forums list and I came to check it out. I did and that's it. Have a nice, absolutely unnecessary, arguement with yourself. I always stand by what I say and still do. Do have a nice day y'all!

SDFemDom4cuck -> RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? (10/4/2007 5:31:48 PM)
I'll have to find the link again from one of the news sites I read but there was some mention that there had been previous suicide attempts in the recent past.

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