RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 7:32:04 PM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lumus

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

If you don't want to pay the tax.. don't smoke. Easy solution.

I was ok with this casual comment until the word "easy" entered the equation.

If you have overcome an addiction, LotusSong, then I'll gladly accept this at face value...if not, then I cannot respect it. I'm of the mind that anything difficult which is judged by a person who has not experienced it firsthand renders the judgment without value.

My my, aren't you the self rightous one!. I smoked and quit 20 years ago. My husband,had a 2 pack a day smoker for 40 years and quit cold turkey 3 years ago (the price of cigs were getting to be too much for him)

Is that good enough for you punkin? Been there done that got the t-shirt. I hold no pity for any kind of addict. It's self-imposed. Be strong or be gone.

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 9/30/2007 7:35:44 PM >

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.

(in reply to Lumus)

Post #: 21

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 7:34:33 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

ild guess a disproportionate number of folks are smokers. probaly more drinkers around then smokers... in the past it was an easy tax as compared to say taxing a gallon of gas.

no mention of the top 1% income; again. yikes. [basically we are bakrupt and monpoly money is akin to the dollar]

(in reply to EPGAH)

Post #: 22

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 7:49:38 PM

Lumus

Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lumus

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

If you don't want to pay the tax.. don't smoke. Easy solution.

I was ok with this casual comment until the word "easy" entered the equation.

If you have overcome an addiction, LotusSong, then I'll gladly accept this at face value...if not, then I cannot respect it. I'm of the mind that anything difficult which is judged by a person who has not experienced it firsthand renders the judgment without value.

My my, aren't you the self rightous one!. I smoked and quit 20 years ago. My husband,had a 2 pack a day smoker for 40 years and quit cold turkey 3 years ago (the price of cigs were getting to be too much for him)

Is that good enough for you punkin? Been there done that got the t-shirt. I hold no pity for any kind of addict. It's self-imposed. Be strong or be gone.

Well, see, that I can respect, because you know what you're talking about.

As for the rest...wasn't trying to push any buttons, only state that I have a personal pet peeve about people who judge something without knowing it - the same way you have a pet peeve about addicts. Clearly, my pet peeve doesn't apply to you in this case, so apologies if I offended.

_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 23

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 7:55:22 PM

Lumus

Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Well, also remember, though, that in addition to smokers SUFFERING more health problems, they also CAUSE more health-problems: Emphysema, lung-cancer, and LOTS of allergies...
It wouldn't be so bad if they could contain the smoke to the smoker...But that would kill him in short order! (The old cigarette-in-the-aquarium science fair project.)
There's also the bad smell, but that belongs to another thread.
Does my right to clean air (And yes, cigarette smoke IS a Greenhouse Gas) supercede X's right to smoke? And if no, why would you want MORE pathogens right outside a hospital? (Or grocery-store, or any other public area where smoking is banned, so the smokers smoke right in front of the entrance instead)

Pity I didn't see your other thread first. Then I would have known for a fact that you enjoy arguing more than resolution. I respect your right to speak and hold your own opinions, but I don't subscribe to feeding a pointless debate.

The facts about smoking are well-known and easily obtained. Think what you like about it, about me, and about the colour of the sky if you so choose. I'm hopping off this train before it derails.

Cheers to A/all, try not to take it too seriously. It's only life, and life is what you make of it, in the end.

_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to EPGAH)

Post #: 24

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 9:46:10 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Since we're taxing people based on their popularity,

Has nothing to do with popularity, Sanity.

It has to do with the fact that smokers tend to cost a lot more money to keep alive at the end of their lives because of all the smoking related illness.

It has to do with taxing the people who will end up using more health services (that the taxes pay for) than other people. Since they use a larger percentage of the money that is paid for in taxes, seems reasonable to expect they end up paying for more of it. They dont like the tax, they can stop smoking.

I find it odd that you would be using logic that is almost communistic in nature, from everybody according to their earning potential, to the minority according to their addictions.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 25

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 9:55:55 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

It wasn't, it hasn't even been passed yet...They want to INCREASE SPENDING by $35 BILLION on health-care. While this sounds like a great step towards fully-socialized medicine, our medical technologies are more advanced, therefore more expensive. This money HAS to come from SOMEWHERE...So like the overgrown insurance company it's becoming, they're increasing the fees on the ones most likely to have problems: SMOKERS!

Why not the obese?

Sanity:
Why not the obese and the stupid?
thompson

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 26

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 9:59:13 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I think most agree that no matter how much we hate taxes some are necessary. We already tax other items individually why is tobacco any different?

That said I still think it is wrong. Yes smokers are putting a strain on healthcare and raising the rates unfairly for us all. But like the OP states how about obesity…doesn’t that also put a strain on healthcare?

If enough agree that a tax is necessary why not fund that tax in a way we all share the burden yet spare those on fixed incomes and the poor.

I like the idea of a luxury tax. This tax would exclude food, clothing, housing, transportation, and medical care. Those that can afford the luxury item would pay the added tax at purchase but those less fortunate would not be forced to choose between heat in the winter and medicine. The less fortunate may have to do without the newest playstation or big screen TV but they can still provide for their families with dignity.

Not a perfect idea by a long shot but would love to hear other ideas how we can fund necessary taxes fairly and humanely.
Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/30/2007 10:03:09 PM >

(in reply to Lumus)

Post #: 27

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 10:03:05 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

That said I still think it is wrong. Yes smokers are putting a strain on healthcare and raising the rates unfairly for us all. But like the OP states how about obesity…doesn’t that also put a strain on healthcare?

The causes of obesity are many. Thyroid issues. Anti-depressant use. Sugar addiction. Disability. Etc., etc.

The causes of smoking related illnesses relate to the person putting a lit cigarette in their mouth and inhaling the smoke.

Please do not draw a comparison where none exists, except for the profoundly ignorant and bigotted.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 28

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 10:06:21 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I’m afraid cigarette addition is just as much a disease as obesity…All but a very few obese people are just as self indulgent as cigarette smokers.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 29

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 10:11:36 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

It wasn't, it hasn't even been passed yet...They want to INCREASE SPENDING by $35 BILLION on health-care. While this sounds like a great step towards fully-socialized medicine, our medical technologies are more advanced, therefore more expensive. This money HAS to come from SOMEWHERE...So like the overgrown insurance company it's becoming, they're increasing the fees on the ones most likely to have problems: SMOKERS!

Why not the obese?

That`s a great idea!

It`s not the obese that need to be taxed ,though. It`s the junk food,that needs to be taxed.

The extra money that obese folks cost us,can be off-set by those taxes.

The same way that taxes on tobacco,off-set the extra costs,that smokers put the system.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 30

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 10:13:00 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I’m afraid cigarette addition is just as much a disease as obesity…All but a very few obese people are just as self indulgent as cigarette smokers.

Hence my use of the term "except for the ignorant and the bigotted."

Feel free to provide medical proof of your claim that all but a very few obese people are that way because of some personality defect as opposed to a medical issue.

Do a search on hypothyroidism, do a search on side effects of antidepressents like xanax, etc. Or drugs like lithium. What the hell, do a search on medical drugs which cause obesity. Do a search on medical conditions which can cause obesity.

Or sit at home on your keyboard and trash a population where a significant percentage of them have no control over their weight.

In either case, I simply find it amusing and opinionated and bigotted.

Enjoy your evening.

Sinergy

p.s. In case you are curious, my bmi was 23 the last time I had it checked.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 31

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 10:15:54 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Well, there are some who want to legalize and tax other addictive substances...marijuana, cocaine;

EPGAH:
While you are sitting there trying to get your feet out of your mouth you might want to do a little research about marijuana and cocaine.
The pharmacopeia indicate that they are not addictive.
BTW:
DO NOT EMAIL ME AGAIN.
If you have anything to say to me, say it here in public so that we may all enjoy the depth of your knowledge and understanding of the subjects on which you expound.
thompson

(in reply to EPGAH)

Post #: 32

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 10:25:24 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I decided to take your advice and run a search on obesity in America. Below is just the first but site after site said the same thing……

”Most obesity is caused by consuming more calories than the body expends” an example of the site results below. Yes there are many other factors but the over indulgence is the main one. An indulgence just like smoking… pretty much the same.

http://www.obesityinamerica.org/causes.html

Please I am not putting anyone down because they are heavy… I’ve been both a 2 pack a day smoker and overweight. It was a struggle to quit and loose weight and I consider myself just lucky to have done it.

But I do think the comparison is viable.

Butch

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 33

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 10:32:04 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline

Looks like group A wanting something on the backs of group B, because they can.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 34

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 10:37:20 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

Looks like group A wanting something on the backs of group B, because they can.

True,......depending.

Depending on who group A is,and who group B is.

Which group were you talking about?

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 35

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 10:40:38 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I decided to take your advice and run a search on obesity in America. Below is just the first but site after site said the same thing……

”Most obesity is caused by consuming more calories than the body expends” an example of the site results below. Yes there are many other factors but the over indulgence is the main one. An indulgence just like smoking… pretty much the same.

http://www.obesityinamerica.org/causes.html

Please I am not putting anyone down because they are heavy… I’ve been both a 2 pack a day smoker and overweight. It was a struggle to quit and loose weight and I consider myself just lucky to have done it.

But I do think the comparison is viable.

Butch

That is a wonderful web site. It lists medical causes. It lists genetic, hereditary, environmental agents, and provides insight into epidemiological studies on the subject. You might change your mind if you read beyond the first 4 sentences.

I am glad you think the comparison is viable. Now that we have established your own personal bigotry, ignorance, and insensitivitity to the issue of obesity, we can continue the discussion as to why a smoker (who puts a cigarette in their mouth and refuses to quit the habit despite the plethora of rehab and smoking cessation programs available) should be taxed at higher amount than somebody who doesnt put a cigarette in their mouths in the first place.

For those playing the home game, attempting to link obesity to smoking is a red herring used by addicts to cover up their lack of will power and ability to control their behavior.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 36

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 10:49:33 PM

bamabbwsub

Posts: 566
Joined: 5/28/2007
Status: offline

I don't agree with taxing smokers, even though I am a non-smoker and HATE being around people who do smoke. However, stopping smoking is not as easy as just putting the pack of cigarettes down and quitting. It's also possible that the poorer people who would be taxed so heavily on cigarettes might switch to less-expensive illegal drugs.

Nor do I think that taxing obese people is the way to go either. And I'm not saying that just because I'm one of those who is overweight. However, even though I am overweight, I have no health issues that would unduly tax (pardon the pun) the health care system. In fact, I work out 3-5 days per week and am possibly healthier than some of my slimmer counterparts.

What about taxing liquor more heavily? Liquor is a "luxury;" for those who overindulge, it is known to cause harm not only to the drinker but also quite often to the innocent victims of DUI offenders, which puts both drinkers and non-drinkers into the health care system; and because it is considered a "disease," people who are alcoholics can get help at a treatment facility.

Just a thought for consideration.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 37

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 11:00:44 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline

It's really irrelevant which group I'm talking about, as long as our tax structure is based on mob rule mentality, we're all fucked if you ask me. The proper way to arrange this in any type of "fair" manner would be to tax all people potentially as this tax or any similiarly proposed tax isn't even being touted as an offset to lifestyle costs(reasonable ascertion), but a blatant removal of money from one group to give a benefit to the whole group, it is nothing less than stealing. We have a lot of people that don't seem to have a problem with taking from others, generally it is veiled in a rich versus poor, but in this case it is taking from group A to offset group B as opposed to taxing group A higher to offset group A's costs.

The two groups are cigarrete smokers and parents of poor kids, using smokers to pay for their kids health care. If we as a nation want healthcare for kids, then everyone should pay for it, not targeted taxation. The only fair use of targeted taxation is to offset costs related to that subgroup as in smokers cost 50 billion(not real figure, just for example) in healthcare then it'd be reasonable to tax cigarettes to raise that much money, but that is not what this is, it is specificly and blatantly saying we are going to tax this group more because we can. It's no deeper than that.

It's stealing, IMO.

And it doesn't matter if we "already" do it in other cases, because, IMO, we shouldn't target select groups , period. So, they should be removed and revenue derived from the general funds, via distributed equitable taxation.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 38

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 11:14:05 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bamabbwsub

I don't agree with taxing smokers, even though I am a non-smoker and HATE being around people who do smoke. However, stopping smoking is not as easy as just putting the pack of cigarettes down and quitting. It's also possible that the poorer people who would be taxed so heavily on cigarettes might switch to less-expensive illegal drugs.

Nor do I think that taxing obese people is the way to go either. And I'm not saying that just because I'm one of those who is overweight. However, even though I am overweight, I have no health issues that would unduly tax (pardon the pun) the health care system. In fact, I work out 3-5 days per week and am possibly healthier than some of my slimmer counterparts.

What about taxing liquor more heavily? Liquor is a "luxury;" for those who overindulge, it is known to cause harm not only to the drinker but also quite often to the innocent victims of DUI offenders, which puts both drinkers and non-drinkers into the health care system; and because it is considered a "disease," people who are alcoholics can get help at a treatment facility.

Just a thought for consideration.

Good points.

I think that booze is taxed pretty heavily(no, I didn`t google it).And folks w/ DUI issues pay a higher insurance rate,plus a zillion other fines and costs.

Not all smokers will get really sick.My dad is 75,and smoked since he was 15.Like most people in my family,he`ll probably run hot and go quickly,w/ out a prolonged illness.

After 60 years of smoking,he takes no meds(at all),and was just hospitalized for the 1st time in his life,for a stomach infection.

So he hasn`t put any extra costs on the system,but has payed those tobacco taxes, all the same.

If we don`t tax junk food and cigs(plus alcohol),we are essentially taxing(or shifting the burden to)healthy people,for staying healthy.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/30/2007 11:18:59 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to bamabbwsub)

Post #: 39

RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill - 9/30/2007 11:58:12 PM

cautiousiasub

Posts: 199
Joined: 10/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

For REAL irony, check right outside of hospitals! No smoking allowed IN the hospital, of course, but right outside, smokers set up a gauntlet of toxic clouds, part of which follows them in--and yes, this includes hospital workers (They tried barring smokers from working at the hospital, but this was sued against, claiming "discriminatory"...Whatever happened to "sterile, smoke-free environment"? Or the ironic signs "Thank you for not smoking", with the international symbol for no smoking on them...)

Hospitals are very quickly becoming completely smoke-free. Most around here already are, and the ones who still allow smoking will be smoke-free soon as well. The laws vary from state to state, but many are adopting a law that requires healthcare facilities to become tobacco-free if they want to keep Medicare funding. I am sure it will be nationwide before long. This includes Missouri...might want to check to make sure you're up to date before you post on here, I am guessing it's been a while since you've had to visit a hospital. It's listed right on the Missouri Hospital Association website under Law/Regulations. As far as being sued for discrimination, that no longer applies. Rules and laws have changed.
.

< Message edited by cautiousiasub -- 9/30/2007 11:59:04 PM >

(in reply to EPGAH)

Post #: 40

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 next > >>

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Poor smokers would pay for health bill

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.094