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RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/23/2008 3:32:35 PM   
charlotteS


Posts: 203
Joined: 3/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: buttersquirt

Would you call it "abusive" when a Dom attacks a sub out of anger and proceeds to pummel her, blacken her eye and bruise her limbs -- when she's ill, no less? When she's in pain?


My first piece of advice is to start your own thread. Resurrecting a three-year old thread will find alot of people responding to the original post, and not yours.  Just click "new post" in the General BDSM section.

Cali

Oooh....whoops.  Usually I check the date on things.  Good advice Cali


_____________________________

"When you are your freest self, who are you?" Jack Rinella


(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/23/2008 3:37:59 PM   
laura2161


Posts: 254
Joined: 3/8/2008
From: Duluth, GA
Status: offline 		huh? Wow, I must be in need of caffeine I thought this was a new thread... goes to look for some coffee.

_____________________________

'I am not infantile, You StinkyButt Poophead!'

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/23/2008 3:57:06 PM   
lally3


Posts: 595
Joined: 3/4/2008
Status: offline 		seems to be that some people think that being genuinely abusive or being punished out of pure anger is hot.  seems that in their eyes theres no play or pretence involved, they really really are THAT DOMINANT and THAT overwhelmingly brutal - and they think thats a good quality....  only goes to show how totally clueless some people are about all of this.



< Message edited by lally3 -- 6/23/2008 4:13:57 PM >

(in reply to laura2161)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/23/2008 4:13:27 PM   
laura2161


Posts: 254
Joined: 3/8/2008
From: Duluth, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3

seems to be that some people think that being genuinely abusive or being punished out of pure anger is hot.  seems that in their eyes theres no play or pretence involved, they really really are THAT DOMINANT and THAT overwhelmingly brutal - and they think thats a good quality....  only goes to show how totally clueless some people are about all of this.

and ive just had to put my 20 year old cat down and im feeling shit and typing on here is taking my mind off her little body laid out in the cat basket at my feet.  her name was squeezy and i loved her very much and i just wanted to share her death cos theres noone to tell right now, cos its midnight here - so thanks.


You have mail.....-big hugs-


_____________________________

'I am not infantile, You StinkyButt Poophead!'

(in reply to lally3)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/23/2008 4:38:51 PM   
chickpea


Posts: 446
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Los Angeles Area
Status: offline 		I rushed into the lifestyle just a few months after finding out about it online.  Never again. 

_____________________________

Congrats to both In the end it was win-win. Now let's get to work http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/john-mccain-concedes-election http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/17/transition.wrap/index.html

(in reply to laura2161)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/23/2008 4:56:09 PM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick
My first piece of advice is to start your own thread. Resurrecting a three-year old thread will find alot of people responding to the original post, and not yours.


This is why I am in favor of some sort of auto lock system for dormant threads. I threw the idea up for discussion in another forum but I was in the minority. Thanks for the heads up, Cali. I didn't catch that this was a cold case file.

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/23/2008 5:45:53 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BeachMystress


BDSM is not abuse and true mental and physical abuse have no place in it. Am I the only one who feels this way? (I sure hope not!)

The Difference between BDSM and Abuse

 
You aren't. I wouldn't make general rules as to what is abuse and what isn't without expecting there to be plenty of exceptions but I find abuse just as disgusting when it happens to BDSMers as when it happens to "vanilla"s. I don't see anything dominant or powerful about it.

Edited to add: I also didn't notice the date. Oh well.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 6/23/2008 5:47:21 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to BeachMystress)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/23/2008 9:13:19 PM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

seems to be that some people think that being genuinely abusive or being punished out of pure anger is hot.  seems that in their eyes theres no play or pretence involved, they really really are THAT DOMINANT and THAT overwhelmingly brutal - and they think thats a good quality....  only goes to show how totally clueless some people are about all of this.


now wait a minute.

To some, being angry at the submissive is a form of punishment or leads to it.

Why does punishment have to be play?

To some this is no game, and if you hear "ok baby, I'm gonna pretend I am mad, so get in the corner" it all seems so 'yukky'.

Pure anger compared to what? Half-anger? Partial anger? Pretend anger?

To some pure anger and pure anger punishment IS hot.

Yeah, some are clueless. riiiiiiiight.


(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/23/2008 9:27:39 PM   
pinkieplum


Posts: 84
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BeachMystress


This is taken from a Dom's profile on this site. "I have a temper and with that can be abusive, both physically and mentally." Personally, the thought that someone truly abused their submissive made me almost physically ill. Someone might say, well at least he is honest about it.. but I find that to be a cop out. Anyone who knows this about themselves knows enough to get help fixing it. BDSM is not abuse and true mental and physical abuse have no place in it. Am I the only one who feels this way? (I sure hope not!)

The Difference between BDSM and Abuse

 
Hi, BeachMystress.
 
It is disturbing to read 'I am abusive' in a Dom's profile.
 
I hope that s-types who read this take the Man at His word, and avoid Him like the plague.
 
Maybe He just chose His words poorly, but who wants to find out the hard way?
 
pinkieplum

< Message edited by pinkieplum -- 6/23/2008 9:28:39 PM >

(in reply to BeachMystress)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/24/2008 2:11:51 AM   
lally3


Posts: 595
Joined: 3/4/2008
Status: offline 		now wait a minute.

To some, being angry at the submissive is a form of punishment or leads to it.

of course, if i made my Master so angry he was spitting nails id feel terrible - just having him furious and dissappointed in me would be punishment enough. 

Why does punishment have to be play?

punishment isnt play, i didnt say that it was and i agree pretending to be angry for punishment puposes just wouldnt work atall and would make a total nonsense of the whole thing. what i meant by 'no play or pretense' is that people who think its ok to express real anger during punishment think its genuinely hot - its no play or pretense its full on punishment fuelled by anger - which is NOT GOOD - punishment is not meant to be hot, not for the Dominant or the submissive.

To some this is no game, and if you hear "ok baby, I'm gonna pretend I am mad, so get in the corner" it all seems so 'yukky'.

Pure anger compared to what? Half-anger? Partial anger? Pretend anger?

anger is anger, but its a negative, horrible emotion to feel (isnt it?) - felt genuinely to whatever level.  anger during punishment could lead to bad judgement and damaging end results.  anger needs to calm down and be controlled before any punishment is carried out - otherwise it could verge on abuse and loss of trust.


To some pure anger and pure anger punishment IS hot.

punishment isnt meant to be hot, its meant to be unpleasant - if you make youre dominant angry in order to be punished because its hot then that isnt punishment, its play.  if you find anger punishment hot then clearly the punishment isnt something you dislike and if its something you like to have done you are manipulating your dominant into anger in order to get your jollies, which isnt particularly submissive either.
 
in the context of abuse and this thread - an abusive, foul tempered dominant isnt attractive and isnt hot.


Yeah, some are clueless. riiiiiiiight.

yes, some are - up until the day when someone really abusive, angry and out of control ties them up and beats them unconcious.  how hot would that be.

< Message edited by lally3 -- 6/24/2008 2:42:42 AM >

(in reply to pinkieplum)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/24/2008 5:13:19 AM   
lally3


Posts: 595
Joined: 3/4/2008
Status: offline 		To some, being angry at the submissive is a form of punishment or leads to it. 

To some pure anger and pure anger punishment IS hot

ive just realised that you are writing this from the dominants view point....  so you think its hot to be made angry - is that because it makes punishing a submissive for making you angry more real somehow.  this is where the 'no play no pretense' comes in..., having a 'real' reason to spank her beyond physical endurance instead of just playing and pushing limits and having fun spanking her and getting her hot for all of the right, fun reasons. does it expunge any responsibility for what you do to her simply because youre angry and she has 'earned it' - you can beat her without mercy and not feel kinky, just angry and within your rights.... this is what we're talking about, isnt it.
 
why would you get hot punishing a submissive for getting something so horribly wrong that you are actually angry with her.  wouldnt that be reason to infact look at what happened and try and work out where the failure came from.  are you saying that you would actually get turned on beating a submissive into pulp or whatever this punishment is (im assuming youre referring to pain punishment).  dont you think you would end up making her terrified of you.  dont you think all of the trust and respect she'd built up for you would get junked in just one session.
 
i could not respect or ever trust someone if they lost their temper and self control and then actually got horny beating the bejeesus out of me.  im sorry but that is fantasy land and it should stay in fantasy land and never never see the light of day and is EXACTLY the dangerous nonsense that (rightly) provoked this thread in the first damn place to discuss the question of abuse disguised as dominance.

.

< Message edited by lally3 -- 6/24/2008 5:47:15 AM >

(in reply to lally3)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/24/2008 5:17:05 AM   
Vestonika


Posts: 95
Joined: 12/23/2007
Status: offline 		most thought-provoking post i've read on cm forums in over a year.

excellent!

*muah*

(in reply to lally3)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/24/2008 6:42:00 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		This is a great topic, and I'm certain everybody explores it mentally in their minds.  What seperates what we do from being "true abuse".

Pinkpleasures posting  http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=131910 
in many regards is accurate in putting the fingers on a few things, regarding personal character differences.  These are still generalizations, and not everybody will fit nicely into them.  However, there is a high degree of general truth in my opinion.

Time and time again, on threads like this we read stories about people not being able to control themselves.   To the point very bad things happen.   Such as a submissive laying in a pool of blood in the kitchen floor, beatings that cause miscarriages, bones being broken, kidney damage and etc.   Where as these are the result of somebody loosing control of their temper.

Many of us simply Love and Enjoy doing alot of things, at times these things might have elements of risks.   However, we tend to rely upon a safety net.  Part of the net is the element of control.  That things are not going to get out of control, resulting in death or great personal injury.  Also, that we can experience so called abusive things with partners we trust.  Knowing that there are limits to how far things will go.   You know, without the worry of ending up 1/2 beaten to death laying on kitchen floors and other similar things.

Big difference between somebody hitting somebody with calculated thought and control, and somebody who's lost control and hits somebody without any regards for their welfare.  Big difference when somebody is paying close attention to how much somebody can humanly withstand compared to somebody who does not have the same focus.

Think the word CONTROL has a lot to do with what seperates BDSM play and true abuse.  There are other thoughts I have on this subject.  However, I'm keeping this post short.







(in reply to BeachMystress)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/24/2008 8:39:41 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		I agree with all you say lally.

Just wanted to see the clarification of anger (temper) vs anger in general.

A temper implies a loss of control, anger does not necessarily mean so.

thanks for clarifying.

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/24/2008 8:40:55 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		i have to disagree with the masses and say that i give the guy props for being honest. actually his words sound very similar to what Daddy revealed to me about himself when we first getting to know each other. He wanted me to know and understand that he was aware he had a fierce temper, and that sometimes this temper would lead to him being verbally, mentally or physically abusive to his slave. and by the slave accepting this and not taking it personally, he saw it as a valuable form of service. He wasn't clueless or out of control, rather he knew himself very well and rather than attempt to conform to some PC idea of good or healthy, he accepted himself and would only involve himself with those who would accept him as well.

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/24/2008 10:32:44 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

i have to disagree with the masses and say that i give the guy props for being honest. actually his words sound very similar to what Daddy revealed to me about himself when we first getting to know each other. He wanted me to know and understand that he was aware he had a fierce temper, and that sometimes this temper would lead to him being verbally, mentally or physically abusive to his slave. and by the slave accepting this and not taking it personally, he saw it as a valuable form of service. He wasn't clueless or out of control, rather he knew himself very well and rather than attempt to conform to some PC idea of good or healthy, he accepted himself and would only involve himself with those who would accept him as well.


Exactly the point, to being open and honest about it.  He's not trying to play the "I did not mean to do it game with you"... or the "I'm sorry it will never happen again, game".   He was being upfront about things.   He's not clueless or out of control, he knows himself.   You're relationship is based on a mutual understanding and acceptence of things.

The type of people that everybody is worried about, are the ones that promise how much they are in control.   Or how they say one thing and do another thing.   People who are not in touch with their own anger or tempers enough to control shit, let alone admit to it.  They lure partners into their twisted world, and are deceptive, are not consistent, and well the long list of negatives goes on and on.

Nobody wants to get into a relationship knowing their own limits are going to become extremely violated.  

I'm certain there's probally somebody who enjoys the rush of getting a bloody nose from time to time.  Who the HELL knows with some of the extremes that some people are looking to engage in doing.

Some girls don't want to have needles shoved in them.  If this is clear at the beginning that this is a limit or expectation and the DOM, says he say to her it's ok Honey... I'd never stick you with a needle.  Then a few monthes into the relationship, while the submisisve is tied up, he uses them for a human needle cushion without talking about and getting her consent.  This is Abuse!  The DOM crossed the line.  

A guy telling a girl, I'll never hit you when I'm pissed off.  Then a few monthes later he's pounding her face hard into the kitchen sink because he was pissed off at her! Clearly abuse.

If a guy tells a girl, if I get pissed off I might break every bone in your body, and she enters into the relationship??  I think two people are in major need of help, in that case.  Both parties are not sane at least in my book.

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/24/2008 12:58:10 PM   
poisonedprogress


Posts: 53
Joined: 1/4/2006
Status: offline 		The distinction is pretty clear and obvious to me. Disclosure, consent, freedom to leave. In the absence of any of those three, you've got abuse.

I think the biggest issue here is semantics, as IronBear pointed out. I've dealt with numerous people who did not make the distinction between the terms D/s and abuse, but certainly made a BIG distinction between actual activities those terms describe. Simple lack of jargon awareness.

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/24/2008 4:22:11 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave


If a guy tells a girl, if I get pissed off I might break every bone in your body, and she enters into the relationship??  I think two people are in major need of help, in that case.  Both parties are not sane at least in my book.


well sanity is one of those subjective things. yet another reason why "SSC" has never made sense for me in my world or for the sort of relationship i needed and desired. but i agree that informed consent is the key thing with issues like this. have your eyes wide open, know exactly what you may be getting into, and accept it or not, while you still have the option (i.e. before that final choice to become property).

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/24/2008 6:12:17 PM   
MISTRESSKUMA


Posts: 226
Joined: 8/15/2007
Status: offline 		OMG, my friend went through this. She met her dom when she was 18. They had 4 children 2 boys and two girls and got divorced when she was 31. It has taken her until the age of 37 to realise that he wanted to abuse her, not be her dom. He would beat her when he was irate and then say sorry. IT happened over and over again and time and time again. She told him she will not put up with all of the stuff he used to do. He finally would apologize to her for all of the bad things he did and said he realized how she felt and how wrong he was. But it would start up again. She didn't know when exactly it happened or what exactly happened but it all started again, the verbal, physical and emotional abuse. Little by little it was happening again. Finally she split.

(in reply to BeachMystress)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Abuse disguised as Dominance - 6/24/2008 8:58:10 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		For you - perhaps... for others... perhaps not.
 
Look - you do not like this guy because he posted an advertisement which states the reality of his world.
 
OK.
 
Don't associate with him.
 
But, you do not define BDSM for me and/or most people I know.
 
This is not a personal thing - but, there are so many people out here *there* who want to tell "me" (anyone) what "BDSM IS" that I find that I do not want to be involved in BDSM -even though I am a sadist and love to screw with masochists while they are in bondage.
 
How screwy is that?
 
~J (a pervert among a society of perverts)

~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeachMystress
<<snip>> BDSM is not abuse and true mental and physical abuse have no place in it. Am I the only one who feels this way? (I sure hope not!)


_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to BeachMystress)
Profile   Post #: 60
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