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The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/3/2007 9:48:50 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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In The End of America, A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot, Naomi Wolf outlines ten methods that fascist regimes use to seize and maintain power in what had previosuly been free societies. The Ten Steps are:

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
2. Create a gulag
3. Develop a thug caste
4. Set up an internal surveillance system
5. Harass citizens' groups
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
7. Target key individuals
8. Control the press
9. Dissent equals treason
10. Suspend the rule of law

More here: http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/63860/

-----

I wouldn't say we are a fascist or totalitarian state yet, but we are obviously on course to becoming one. And quickly too. This will happen before you fully realize it has happened and that you can't do much to stop it.
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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/3/2007 9:56:25 AM   
Mortlach


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There's a Dutch politician who's arguing along these lines with the thug caste being the Muslims. Very distressing. If he ever gets some real power, I think i'll have to emigrate.

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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/3/2007 10:21:06 AM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

I wouldn't say we are a fascist or totalitarian state yet, but we are obviously on course to becoming one. And quickly too. This will happen before you fully realize it has happened and that you can't do much to stop it.



Be careful, talk like that will be outlawed by Mrs Clinton once she takes power.

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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/3/2007 11:02:46 AM   
kdsub


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Someone has to lead… that is the problem and the danger to democracies. Imagine how hard it would be to set any kind of policy if there needed to be an agreement in congress. Some decisions right or wrong must be made quickly. The leader must be given power to make those decisions and all we can hope for is we picked the right man or woman.

Thank heavens our forefathers realized this and designed checks and balances that would eventually force the leadership back in line with the basic constitution. That is I believe what is happening now. President Bush in good conscious made some bad decisions in leadership… not only in foreign matters but also in abusing his power domestically. His party that has supported him will be voted out of office for his mistakes.
The same thing happened to the democrats under Clinton. It is not now or was not then a party philosophy but poor leadership.

It may be slow and take time but the American people will force change and demand good leadership or we will keep voting the controlling party out until we get it. It may not be the most efficient form of government but it is the best type at reflecting the true beliefs of its people over time.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/3/2007 11:17:29 AM >

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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/3/2007 11:08:46 AM   
Politesub53


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Sounds like a dictatorship to me. Lean too far left or right and that is the outcome.

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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/3/2007 11:19:57 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Some of those points seem to fit the era from 1933 to 1945 as well as today.

Orion

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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/3/2007 12:16:22 PM   
pahunkboy


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follow the money

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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/3/2007 1:39:19 PM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

In The End of America, A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot, Naomi Wolf outlines ten methods that fascist regimes use to seize and maintain power in what had previosuly been free societies. The Ten Steps are:

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
2. Create a gulag
3. Develop a thug caste
4. Set up an internal surveillance system
5. Harass citizens' groups
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
7. Target key individuals
8. Control the press
9. Dissent equals treason
10. Suspend the rule of law

More here: http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/63860/

-----

I wouldn't say we are a fascist or totalitarian state yet, but we are obviously on course to becoming one. And quickly too. This will happen before you fully realize it has happened and that you can't do much to stop it.



I've just started reading this book.. it's an eye-opener.  It's available on Amazon.com  (Popeye.. I think you would LOVE this book)

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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/3/2007 2:41:25 PM   
DryFist


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Couldn't agree more.  We are on exactly the same course that Hitler led Germany on with exactly the same developing elements.  Lots of people were against SOME of the things the Nazi's promoted, but they bought into it because SOME of the elements were seen as helpful to their society.  And Hitler let 'em down the primrose path. 
Fraudulent election to gain power
Invasion of a non-threatening country for resources (but under bogus reason that it was a threat) - Hitler invaded Poland, shrub invaded Iraq  -- hell, he knew there were no WMDs in Iraq.  Kennedy had photos of Russian missiles but even with 100x the spy power these days, Shrub didn't have squat for evidence.
Development of a Gestapo & neighbors turning in neighbors (Remember!  Your Postman is supposed to be spying on you!)
All because a radically conservative minority of sheeple BELIEVED Shrub gave a damn about religion, or "family values" (Hitler was also a "family values" politician folks!)  ... but that's what "faith based" voting gets you!  And that's what letting an intolerant minority group spouting a high-sounding but essentially hateful philosophy gets the rest of us.  Shrub has even admitted he's "playing" the public.  Suckers!
I've seen someone here promote our 'right' to removing an un-responsive government by force of arms.  Just see how long you are gonna have freedom to buy those arms.  And ... how long it'll take the black helicopters to haul your ass off to Guantanamo!  You've already let it go too far.
The only good thing that could happen to our politics now is for EVERY politician to be assembled in Washington DC & for somebody (friend or foe) to turn that whole city into trinitite.

But maybe that chili dog I had for lunch just isn't sitting right!  And my shorts are kinda bunching up.

On the list below, she forgot to include the need for heroes ... a fascist govt has to create heroes to misdirect us & for us to rally behind ... how about that big made-up pile of crap about the female truck driver who got ambushed & 2 broken legs ... who was treated well by the Iraqis at the start of the war?  Wasn't that a big steaming heap of "Wag the Dog" that Shrub tried to turn into a sanctity of women/family values cause?
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
In The End of America, A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot, Naomi Wolf outlines ten methods that fascist regimes use to seize and maintain power in what had previosuly been free societies. The Ten Steps are:
1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy -- ever heard "terrorist" or "WMD" mentioned?
2. Create a gulag -- such as Guantanamo
3. Develop a thug caste -- such as our current military training of criminals
4. Set up an internal surveillance system -- such as the "Patriot Act"
5. Harass citizens' groups -- any group against this phony war!
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release -- ask any Muslim
7. Target key individuals -- Cindy Sheehan
8. Control the press -- they've been poll sucking saps for decades
9. Dissent equals treason -- according to President Shrub & his shotgun toting sidekick
10. Suspend the rule of law -- Shrub has been flouting the law since he got into office

More here: http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/63860/
-----
I wouldn't say we are a fascist or totalitarian state yet, but we are obviously on course to becoming one. And quickly too. This will happen before you fully realize it has happened and that you can't do much to stop it.


< Message edited by DryFist -- 10/3/2007 3:14:23 PM >

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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/3/2007 7:27:39 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Someone has to lead…
Butch


Here I thought this was a gov of the people and they were the administration?  Lead?.


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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/3/2007 7:41:46 PM   
kdsub


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Hi RealOne

If all 250 million could be polled before each move then I’d say maybe… even then important decisions should be made after some reflection over time so not to be influenced by media coverage. As an example going into Somalia was popular because of all the pictures of starving babies… but later it was determined to be a mistake and all we did was make things worse.

Barring the above poll of all citizens the only practical way is to elect someone whom you think will act properly in emergency situations. Unfortunately we have not elected the right people… or at best their actions are wanting.

Butch

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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/3/2007 10:39:52 PM   
Real0ne


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How can we possibly elect the right person you know?

It took 5 yearts before someone outted the info on bushes grandaddy and the nazi connection.  The press knew it!  It was in the new york times in 1942!  But they were not talking so how do we know what we are electing.

I think its funny when that nazi connection was first brought into the light people thought it was just partison political lies, and even if it were true what does the things his grand daddy did have to do with how he runs the country.

Well proof I suppose is in the pudding, did exactly what hitler would have done (at least as much as he could get away with!) LOL

How about the next one up for bat?  How can we know about them till its to late?  As voters we cant make informed choices.

This government someone said was just set up to sound pretty.  The people really do not have much power if ya think about it.



< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/3/2007 10:41:40 PM >


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"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/3/2007 11:02:14 PM   
kdsub


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Hi again RealOne

What is the alternative… what form of government has a better system... should we all just throw up are hands and give up?…I can’t do that I’ve children and grandchildren… I have to make the best.

I guess I have more faith in people than you. I do think there are good people out there running for public office… not perfect but good at heart.

I am not as hard on my country as some… We have problems and have made many mistakes…In spite of that we have done better than most great powers over humane history at promoting freedom and world peace.

Damn ripped a nylon getting off the soapbox.
Butch

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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/4/2007 10:16:20 PM   
Real0ne


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Hi KD..

You have no idea how I "wish" I could agree with you but things just are not what they seem.


Flight 77: The Flight Data Recorder Investigation and Analysis






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"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/5/2007 5:22:33 AM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

In The End of America, A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot, Naomi Wolf outlines ten methods that fascist regimes use to seize and maintain power in what had previosuly been free societies. The Ten Steps are:

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
2. Create a gulag
3. Develop a thug caste
4. Set up an internal surveillance system
5. Harass citizens' groups
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
7. Target key individuals
8. Control the press
9. Dissent equals treason
10. Suspend the rule of law

More here: http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/63860/

-----

I wouldn't say we are a fascist or totalitarian state yet, but we are obviously on course to becoming one. And quickly too. This will happen before you fully realize it has happened and that you can't do much to stop it.


Totally agreed.  Here is something from Dr. Laurence Britt, written in 2004:




The 14 POINTS OF FASCISM


 
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism
From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights
The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause
The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism
Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.
5. Rampant sexism
Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.
6. A controlled mass media
Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes’ excesses.
7. Obsession with national security
Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together
Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.
9. Power of corporations protected
Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens.
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated
Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.
11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts
Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.
12. Obsession with crime and punishment
Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal” and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors” was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption
Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.
14. Fraudulent elections
Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.
NOTE: The above 14 Points was written in 2004 by Dr. Laurence Britt, a political scientist. Dr. Britt studied the fascist regimes of: Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile).
 
 
This interesting quote was also on the same webpage:
"What no one seemed to notice. . . was the ever widening gap. . .between the government and the people. . . And it became always wider. . . the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting, it provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway . . . (it) gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about . . .and kept us so busy with continuous changes and 'crises' and so fascinated . . . by the machinations of the 'national enemies,' without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. . .
Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted,' that unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these 'little measures'. . . must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. . . .Each act. . . is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow.
You don't want to act, or even talk, alone. . . you don't want to 'go out of your way to make trouble.' . . .But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves, when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. . . .You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things your father. . . could never have imagined." :
From Milton Mayer, They Thought They Were Free, The Germans, 1938-45 (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1955)
 
This list and quote come from the following website: 
http://www.v911t.org/14POINTS.php   (Veterans for 9/11 Truth - Operation Vigilant Truth).
 
You may find it interesting to check out.........................luci



< Message edited by slaveluci -- 10/5/2007 5:24:21 AM >


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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/5/2007 5:27:31 AM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Some of those points seem to fit the era from 1933 to 1945 as well as today.

Orion

Yes, Orion, they certainly do.  Let me re-post part of my reply above:
"What no one seemed to notice. . . was the ever widening gap. . .between the government and the people. . . And it became always wider. . . the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting, it provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway . . . (it) gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about . . .and kept us so busy with continuous changes and 'crises' and so fascinated . . . by the machinations of the 'national enemies,' without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. . .
Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted,' that unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these 'little measures'. . . must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. . . .Each act. . . is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow.
You don't want to act, or even talk, alone. . . you don't want to 'go out of your way to make trouble.' . . .But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves, when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. . . .You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things your father. . . could never have imagined." :
From Milton Mayer, They Thought They Were Free, The Germans, 1938-45 (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1955)................luci


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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/5/2007 6:11:56 AM   
samboct


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I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with KDsub- at least part of it.  No, I don't think Bush is a good man, although I suspect that many have found him personally likeable.  The Dirty Harry line is appropriate- "A man's got to know his limits." and Bush is in way, way over his head.  Arguing that he's acting in good conscience- well, so was Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Fidel etc.  Those guys all thought they were doing what was best for the country- if you look at an example like Arafat- there was a man out for personal enrichment- and that's a very different driving force.

Having visited Berlin in the past few months- I can now more easily understand how people can slip into a fascism.  And there's no denying that there are alarming parallels to Nazi Germany in this administrations actions the quotes from Naomi Wolf and Britt are bang on.

But if we look at our own history- we've kind of been here before too.  Consider- that through the 1850-1912 period- the American Senate was widely regarded as an old boy's club- with Senators in the pocket of big business.  The idea that Senators represented the citizen in any way, shape or form, was laughable- they were making a fortune in bribes.  The guy who broke apart the system was Homer Smith, the Senator from Michigan, who made his mark during the Titanic investigation.  (It really was a watershed event in politics.) 

Wilson-that well known liberal- was strongly in favor of censorship during the First World War- Germans were heavily scrutizined- sauerkraut was renamed "victory cabbage".  This self righteousness played right into Prohibition- undertaken by his administration although by that point I think he was a drooling idiot.  Yet Wilson was far from a conservative.  FDR- another liberal- put the Japanese into internment camps to our everlasting shame- and propaganda certainly fanned the suspicions of average folks.

So while I see the country is in trouble now, I think we've been in trouble before.  Here are the problems-
1)  The opposition to the current administration isn't distinguishing itself.  There should be calls for impeachment- never mind Diane Pelosi.  WE the people, certainly didn't agree to take impeachment off the table with the last election.  Condoning torture and subverting due process should be enough for charges-and there's certainly no lack of evidence.
2)  The media is in the hands of relatively few corporate interests.  Nazi Germany showed this quite clearly- control the media- you've got the country.

The positives- which seem to get neglected-
1)  The rise of the internet.  It may take time for the shift to fully percolate, but already there are people paying attention to what's said and written on the internet in contrast to the mainstream media.  Along with the ubiquity of camera phones and video recorders- we're turning ourselves into reporters.  While we may not get paid for it, there are still plenty of people that enjoy doing it.  The internet is much harder to muzzle than the press at this point.
2)  We're well armed.  The Gestapo in Germany had no more than 7,000 (? think this is right) employees.  Most of them were desk jockeys- hence they never had more than 700 people actually out rounding up the "undesirables".  Jews were pacifists and would rather commit suicide than shoot a Gestapo man.  I'll bet that many of the "undesirables" in this country would go out shooting, hence rounding up the populace in this country would be a much harder and riskier task- are they going to use tanks in the street?

What this means is that rather than just give up at this point and say that the Bushies have won (don't think so), it's up to us to rebuild our country.  I just don't think we should wait for an election, but we seem to have a bunch of hoseheads running.  Maybe it's time for an underground internet campaign?

Sam

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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/5/2007 6:47:07 AM   
LadyEllen


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ich muess zugeben, diese Auskunft ist sehr, sehr interessant und ueberall sehr anwendbar. Danke fuer die Tips, Leute!

mfG

Adelle Hitler

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RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/5/2007 6:16:39 PM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
I've just started reading this book.. it's an eye-opener.  It's available on Amazon.com  (Popeye.. I think you would LOVE this book)

After reading this thread this morning, I checked the book out today and have already gotten several pages in.  It is definitely interesting and brings up great points.  Thanks to you all for bringing up the subject.  I am constantly reading new releases but somehow missed this one.  I think I'm really going to like it..............luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: The Rise of Fascism in America - 10/5/2007 6:24:34 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Some of those points seem to fit the era from 1933 to 1945 as well as today.


Which ones, Orion?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 20
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