RE: Fucking romance

RE: Fucking romance (Full Version)

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SusanofO -> RE: Fucking romance (10/3/2007 6:30:03 PM)
sadisticmaster03: Making someone say "I love you" - if they don't know whether they mean it strikes me as not sadistic, but a very strange request, slightly bordering on Narcissicm. Even if you can supposedly "condition them to love you" (via force) in this manner - if it isn't based on their own free choice - then why would you want this from them? Granted, it would sort of be based on choice (their choice to be in a BDSM relationship with a person who requested they do this). But IMO, that is different than a free-will decision to make up one's mind whether to say: "I love you" (or not), and mean it. What do you as a Dom get out of this, I am wondering? I am just plain curious, no disrespect intended.[:)] - Susan

BoiJen -> RE: Fucking romance (10/3/2007 6:55:37 PM)
fuck wrong post

gypsygrl -> RE: Fucking romance (10/3/2007 7:09:59 PM)
quote: Making someone say "I love you" - if they don't know whether they mean it strikes me as not sadistic, but a very strange request, slightly bordering on Narcissicm. Even if you can supposedly "condition them to love you" (via force) in this manner - if it isn't based on their own free choice - then why would you want this from them? It doesn't strike me as being sadistic either. But, I can see it as an expression of power and something that reinforces the dynamic. My Master makes me say that I love him and I do love him in my own way--a warm affection mixed with respect--even though we aren't romantically involved. I'm not very expressive when it comes to feelings so its the sort of thing I have to be told to do. He also has to tell me to hug friends goodbye because we know alot of huggy people and I'm not huggy. In fact, I go to great lengths to avoid friendly hugs. So, when we're leaving anywhere, he quietly tells me "hugs" and thats my cue to hug people. Other times he has to tell me to "be social" because I'll try to avoid talking to people. I'm getting better at these sorts of things and maybe some day the words "I love you" will spontaneously come out of my mouth or I'll just randomly start conversations with friends and hug them when we part. :)

DocRudy -> RE: Fucking romance (10/3/2007 7:34:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha How do you pick partners that you know won't want more from you? Akasha I think herein is the crux of the problem. Sad thing is, I have neither heard of nor experienced a way to find that personality trait which might lead you to think that so-and-so really won't want love from you. It's in human nature to love and want love returned, so right there your potential candidates are whittled down to all but those that don't have this trait. Not to mention that the guy you're looking at probably doesn't even know himself whether or not he is hardwired to need love. Unless he's been tested before, I'd put money on him to fall into the large category of humans I mentioned above. I do hope you find that guy though, hard road to finding him though it might be. -DR

xoxi -> RE: Fucking romance (10/3/2007 7:43:34 PM)
I don't know if you need someone who has a genetic disposition not to love. It seems easier to just find someone who loves someone else more. But that might take all the fun out of it for her...because there's no 'total' devotion.

DocRudy -> RE: Fucking romance (10/3/2007 8:00:03 PM)
Not to mention there's two things to consider when trying to find someone who merely loves someone more: 1. There's a serious danger of unintentionally wrecking his marriage. I was under the impression that Aakasha was trying to avoid this situation, yes? [:D] 2. Can the man's marriage be healthy and stable in the long-term if their marriage is lacking such a seemingly important piece to the puzzle as to have the man desire to actually go outside of the marriage to get it? If it can't, then it's almost certain to fall back to #1 above... marriage falls apart, vulnerable man falls in love with you naturally. So that leaves you perhaps with actually needing to find a man who is incapable of love, or at least one who absolutely doesn't need it. But is that unwittingly looking for a sociopath? I can't answer that. 2 minutes left in the 3rd period and the Redwings are down by 2 working against a powerplay. (translation: It's not looking so good, from my angle.) There may be an answer, I just can't see it, sadly. -DR

SusanofO -> RE: Fucking romance (10/3/2007 8:41:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gypsygrl quote: Making someone say "I love you" - if they don't know whether they mean it strikes me as not sadistic, but a very strange request, slightly bordering on Narcissicm. Even if you can supposedly "condition them to love you" (via force) in this manner - if it isn't based on their own free choice - then why would you want this from them? - from SusanofO So, when we're leaving anywhere, he quietly tells me "hugs" and thats my cue to hug people. Other times he has to tell me to "be social" because I'll try to avoid talking to people. I'm getting better at these sorts of things and maybe some day the words "I love you" will spontaneously come out of my mouth or I'll just randomly start conversations with friends and hug them when we part. :) Okay. I appreciate the explanation, gypsygrl.I guess I can see it if someone is actually trying to help you overcome some sort of social inhibition. But doing it as a power-play, while I undertand it, it still just sort of devalues what I consider a statement I dont make lightly - to anyone. I realize people might say it all the time, and mean it or not - but I don't. I am not sure I could deal with anyone who actually forced me to say this - if I wasn't sure I meant it. Not that it takes me eons to "get there" - it depends. But I don't say it a lot. Not trying to sound like a Pollyanna (and it certainly is not a reflection on you) but I am a little shocked anyone would want to force someone else to basically devalue this kind of sentiment. I am not idealistic enough to believe there aren't people who don't mean it saying it (a lot, maybe)- but still, it's a little upsetting (although not particulalry surprising) to hear someone views forcing someone to say it when it's not meant as some kind of game. I realize that probably sounds judgmental as hell, but maybe I am a closet idealist or romantic, I dunno. I sort of consider myself a "realistic romantic" - realize some people will act at their worst, at some points, but always hope for the best - and insist on seeing that, too. But I'd never force anyone to say this kind of thing to me - ever. - Susan

xoxi -> RE: Fucking romance (10/3/2007 8:49:45 PM)
Very true DR which is why in my initial reply I said she should look to the poly or swinger crowd. I personally can't imagine wanting to go outside my marriage or even why anyone would unless something was lacking but from what I hear the poly people and swingers do so quite frequently with no harm done.

AAkasha -> RE: Fucking romance (10/3/2007 10:57:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: iammachine quote: it's just that the nature of an intense, intimate power exchange relationship FEELS like love, and they WANT to be in love, and all of a sudden, I become the embodiement of what they want as their life partner. Who's to say that it isn't love? Love is a feeling, it's not something that you can quantify. If they feel that they love you, what's the harm in it if they understand the boundaries of the relationship? You can limit actions, you can set boundaries that define a relationship, but you can't control feelings. What can be controlled is what a person does about those feelings. For example, I have a friend that I am very close to. We refer to eachother as a "non couple", because though our relationship inspires many of the same feelings as a romantic exchange, I have set a limit at the notion of a romantic commitment. We both understand the boundaries of the relationship, and it is what it is. Despite how he may feel about me, he doesn't expect that I should become involved in any way beyond boundaries that have been set. We care about eachother a lot, and we care enough to be honest about what we may feel, and honest about what we will and will not do or commit to. It works for us, at least. YMMV. As for someone wanting to fall in love and suddenly a desire for a connection gives them the perception that you are the embodiment of everything they have ever wanted.... that's often loneliness talking. Lots of people really want to feel a romantic connection, they want a romantic relationship. Lots of people are in love with love, as opposed to people. I call this the lost puppy effect. I can respect how someone feels, if they can respect that I may or may not feel the same, and respect what I want (or don't) from a relationship. If they can be content with that, that's dandy. They can feel however they want as long as it doesn't hinder our current relationship. If how I feel, want or not doesn't jive with them, they are free to move on, or dial things back to a point where they can manage their emotions. I can say it's not love because they are basing it on too little information, lack of "vanilla" shared experiences, very little discussion of worldy non kinky things, very little personal one-on-one time, all the things that make you know a "whole" person. What they love is the one part of me they know very intimately, and they are "filling in" the rest with fluffy nice ideas. Until you have gone through a variety of experiences together and have shared time, I find it hard to quantify love as being real. Infatuation? Sure! But c'mon, someone can't LOVE me if they essentially barely know me, compared to - for example - how much boyfriends, lovers or my husband knew me before we in love. They are perhaps in love with the idea of being in love. Akasha

LATEXBABY64 -> RE: Fucking romance (10/3/2007 11:06:19 PM)
i am sorry i can not help you on this. I just can not deal with fractal personas. balance are two people being one unit

littlesarbonn -> RE: Fucking romance (10/3/2007 11:16:21 PM)
To me it seems that the issue appears more about exclusive love rather than love in general. I've been in relationships in the past where I was in love with my Mistress, and she indicated that she, too, was in love with me, but at the same time she was also in a strong, loving relationship with her real, actual partner. And it worked fine. She indicated that she was someone who was capable of loving mutual people, and I was fine with that. I think it was difficult for me the very first time I went through this because I'd never actually been in love with someone before, and it somewhat hit me in the side of the head like a brick from out of nowhere. But I've evolved to the point where I don't think I'd want to be in a relationship with a dominant woman who was uninterested in me actually loving her. At the same time, I'm not asking to be her only love, or even really all that much else. But I'd run the other direction from any relationship that started with someone stating, "the second you start to fall in love with me, it's over." I don't date other women when I'm owned by someone, so my love is going to be exclusive to her only. Perhaps I'm a bit more rare in that I don't require that same exclusivity in return, or even expect it for that matter.

twistedkytten -> RE: Fucking romance (10/4/2007 12:22:14 AM)
I don't love my Master, but my devotion to Him is absolute. It is easier for me anyhow to focus on the more important things.

gypsygrl -> RE: Fucking romance (10/4/2007 3:11:30 AM)
quote: I am a little shocked anyone would want to force someone else to basically devalue this kind of sentiment. Point of clarification: There's no force in our dynamic. He doesn't force me to do anything.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Fucking romance (10/4/2007 7:28:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha quote: ORIGINAL: iammachine quote: it's just that the nature of an intense, intimate power exchange relationship FEELS like love, and they WANT to be in love, and all of a sudden, I become the embodiement of what they want as their life partner. Who's to say that it isn't love? Love is a feeling, it's not something that you can quantify. If they feel that they love you, what's the harm in it if they understand the boundaries of the relationship? You can limit actions, you can set boundaries that define a relationship, but you can't control feelings. What can be controlled is what a person does about those feelings. For example, I have a friend that I am very close to. We refer to eachother as a "non couple", because though our relationship inspires many of the same feelings as a romantic exchange, I have set a limit at the notion of a romantic commitment. We both understand the boundaries of the relationship, and it is what it is. Despite how he may feel about me, he doesn't expect that I should become involved in any way beyond boundaries that have been set. We care about eachother a lot, and we care enough to be honest about what we may feel, and honest about what we will and will not do or commit to. It works for us, at least. YMMV. As for someone wanting to fall in love and suddenly a desire for a connection gives them the perception that you are the embodiment of everything they have ever wanted.... that's often loneliness talking. Lots of people really want to feel a romantic connection, they want a romantic relationship. Lots of people are in love with love, as opposed to people. I call this the lost puppy effect. I can respect how someone feels, if they can respect that I may or may not feel the same, and respect what I want (or don't) from a relationship. If they can be content with that, that's dandy. They can feel however they want as long as it doesn't hinder our current relationship. If how I feel, want or not doesn't jive with them, they are free to move on, or dial things back to a point where they can manage their emotions. I can say it's not love because they are basing it on too little information, lack of "vanilla" shared experiences, very little discussion of worldy non kinky things, very little personal one-on-one time, all the things that make you know a "whole" person. What they love is the one part of me they know very intimately, and they are "filling in" the rest with fluffy nice ideas. Until you have gone through a variety of experiences together and have shared time, I find it hard to quantify love as being real. Infatuation? Sure! But c'mon, someone can't LOVE me if they essentially barely know me, compared to - for example - how much boyfriends, lovers or my husband knew me before we in love. They are perhaps in love with the idea of being in love. Akasha I find your reply above to be interesting from several standpoints... You say that they do not know enough of the "real" you to love you, that they know only the kinky side. So you are one of the few femdominants that is NOT interested in a submissive who can talk about other things other than kink and/or sex? You say they have very little one-on-one time with you but they are experienced in the kinky aspects of what it is that you and they do. So again, you are one of the few femdominants that goes more towards the kinky side right away without knowing much about their vanilla life and with their interest or non-interest in your other aspects of your individuality not counting as a factor in whether or not they will serve you? You say that you have little in common in tersm of shared "vanilla" experiences. At 52, I am unlikely to meet a female submissive with who I am going to have a past history of shared vanilla experiences. But from what I have seen of most female submissives...here and elsewhere...they make it clear that they expect time to be spent on "vanilla" getting-to-know-each-other before D/s even comes into play, let alone kink. They expect it to continue even after the kink has started. Most of the femdominants seem to want that too, except for many of the professionals. Are you different from the others then? You don't want that "vanilla" getting to know-each-other time, before and during and after you have begun engaging in kinky play with the male submissives?

toservez -> RE: Fucking romance (10/4/2007 7:54:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant I find your reply above to be interesting from several standpoints... You say that they do not know enough of the "real" you to love you, that they know only the kinky side. So you are one of the few femdominants that is NOT interested in a submissive who can talk about other things other than kink and/or sex? You say they have very little one-on-one time with you but they are experienced in the kinky aspects of what it is that you and they do. So again, you are one of the few femdominants that goes more towards the kinky side right away without knowing much about their vanilla life and with their interest or non-interest in your other aspects of your individuality not counting as a factor in whether or not they will serve you? You say that you have little in common in tersm of shared "vanilla" experiences. At 52, I am unlikely to meet a female submissive with who I am going to have a past history of shared vanilla experiences. But from what I have seen of most female submissives...here and elsewhere...they make it clear that they expect time to be spent on "vanilla" getting-to-know-each-other before D/s even comes into play, let alone kink. They expect it to continue even after the kink has started. Most of the femdominants seem to want that too, except for many of the professionals. Are you different from the others then? You don't want that "vanilla" getting to know-each-other time, before and during and after you have begun engaging in kinky play with the male submissives? I have to echo this confusion. Are you just wanting a man for scenes or are you looking for more then that. I would think just scenes would be easy to find and if they get to attached just move on to the next, but if you are wanting a man for long term form of a relationship, let alone more then scenes then you go into the needle in the haystack group. The same way people who want a servant but no love and sex. You would then want a human being who will intensely do what you want when you want but with little regards to their needs. That is just a very tough goal if true. To me this thread love is more in the terms of expectations of love, basically obligations. Two people in any relationship the cold fact is it is about meeting each other’s needs and many wants. If you want any type of relationship forget the word love, what sacrifice are you expecting from the other and what needs are you responsible in fulfilling for that other. If they are not fairly in line then you are asking for trouble and if you are expecting a pretty involved relationship then a person has to step up to the plate and acknowledge their responsibility to helping with the needs of the other and for most that has the love quotient in it.

AAkasha -> RE: Fucking romance (10/4/2007 8:24:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant I find your reply above to be interesting from several standpoints... You say that they do not know enough of the "real" you to love you, that they know only the kinky side. So you are one of the few femdominants that is NOT interested in a submissive who can talk about other things other than kink and/or sex? You say they have very little one-on-one time with you but they are experienced in the kinky aspects of what it is that you and they do. So again, you are one of the few femdominants that goes more towards the kinky side right away without knowing much about their vanilla life and with their interest or non-interest in your other aspects of your individuality not counting as a factor in whether or not they will serve you? You say that you have little in common in tersm of shared "vanilla" experiences. At 52, I am unlikely to meet a female submissive with who I am going to have a past history of shared vanilla experiences. But from what I have seen of most female submissives...here and elsewhere...they make it clear that they expect time to be spent on "vanilla" getting-to-know-each-other before D/s even comes into play, let alone kink. They expect it to continue even after the kink has started. Most of the femdominants seem to want that too, except for many of the professionals. Are you different from the others then? You don't want that "vanilla" getting to know-each-other time, before and during and after you have begun engaging in kinky play with the male submissives? No, of course we have enough compatibility to have conversations outside of kink - and shared interests, and things we can laugh about and enjoy. Our relationship may be more than 50% or 75% kinky, but we have compatibility right now in all areas. That's my point -- he knows me very little, compared to someone I have dated for a long time. You have to have a certain level of common interests and compatibility to interact/engage for a few months - what do people say infatuation lasts - three months? Others say six. But inside of 6 months, if someone is saying they "are falling in love" with me, I call that infatuation. Until you have shared common experiences (that means person A and person B go through a trial, a joy, an argument, etc.) -- which is FAR different from "common interests" -- I don't think it's practical or realistic to think the warm, fuzzy feelings you are having are "love." Akasha

toservez -> RE: Fucking romance (10/4/2007 8:52:49 AM)
quote: No, of course we have enough compatibility to have conversations outside of kink - and shared interests, and things we can laugh about and enjoy. Our relationship may be more than 50% or 75% kinky, but we have compatibility right now in all areas. That's my point -- he knows me very little, compared to someone I have dated for a long time. You have to have a certain level of common interests and compatibility to interact/engage for a few months - what do people say infatuation lasts - three months? Others say six. But inside of 6 months, if someone is saying they "are falling in love" with me, I call that infatuation. Until you have shared common experiences (that means person A and person B go through a trial, a joy, an argument, etc.) -- which is FAR different from "common interests" -- I don't think it's practical or realistic to think the warm, fuzzy feelings you are having are "love." Akasha I am sorry if this comes off in a mean spirit as it is not my intention but from all of what you have written it just looks like you are theorizing up a storm to feel right and comfortable with wanting all the good things in a relationship and none of the obligations. Six months for most people of seeing a person even if it is not a lot but certainly enough to be called a relationship, the term love would be entirely appropriate. Relationships/love has stages and infatuation might be the first stage of love but it is in the concept of love. If you spend significant time with a person regardless of the experience you are going to get to know the person and form feelings of some type for that person. Throw in back to the OP passion and intimacy then six months for most I would think is easily enough time to develop thoughts of love. Shared experiences with ups and downs go more toward sustaining love and compatibility, a later stage of the love process. It just sounds like you want to find a person to be on a perpetual third date with and to me that is highly unrealistic.

cloudboy -> RE: Fucking romance (10/4/2007 10:28:53 AM)
quote: It just sounds like you want to find a person to be on a perpetual third date with and to me that is highly unrealistic. I am 100% in your corner. That is well stated.

AAkasha -> RE: Fucking romance (10/4/2007 1:05:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toservez quote: No, of course we have enough compatibility to have conversations outside of kink - and shared interests, and things we can laugh about and enjoy. Our relationship may be more than 50% or 75% kinky, but we have compatibility right now in all areas. That's my point -- he knows me very little, compared to someone I have dated for a long time. You have to have a certain level of common interests and compatibility to interact/engage for a few months - what do people say infatuation lasts - three months? Others say six. But inside of 6 months, if someone is saying they "are falling in love" with me, I call that infatuation. Until you have shared common experiences (that means person A and person B go through a trial, a joy, an argument, etc.) -- which is FAR different from "common interests" -- I don't think it's practical or realistic to think the warm, fuzzy feelings you are having are "love." Akasha I am sorry if this comes off in a mean spirit as it is not my intention but from all of what you have written it just looks like you are theorizing up a storm to feel right and comfortable with wanting all the good things in a relationship and none of the obligations. Six months for most people of seeing a person even if it is not a lot but certainly enough to be called a relationship, the term love would be entirely appropriate. Relationships/love has stages and infatuation might be the first stage of love but it is in the concept of love. If you spend significant time with a person regardless of the experience you are going to get to know the person and form feelings of some type for that person. Throw in back to the OP passion and intimacy then six months for most I would think is easily enough time to develop thoughts of love. Shared experiences with ups and downs go more toward sustaining love and compatibility, a later stage of the love process. It just sounds like you want to find a person to be on a perpetual third date with and to me that is highly unrealistic. I disagree - if I tell a man UP FRONT I do not want a romantic relationship, I am happily married, I don't want a boyfriend, I don't want him to become attached to me, I already have a soul mate and he is game -- I think it's fairly clear that him "falling in love" is not the plan. Sure, in six months of romantically dating someone you can fall in love - of course. But in 6 months or less (in this case, it's less than one month), with very little shared experience, with chemistry based on "shared interests" and some mutual respect, but mostly a very exciting BDSM relationship that's starting -- yeah, I think it's VERY premature for a guy to fall in love or suggest that's happening - and it's happened before, and I assume this happens to other women. I have been clear about what I want and what I can give - and guys have been gung ho, "I won't get attached, I promised. I can respect those boundaries, of course" -- flash forward a few weeks, and it's a different story. At that point, time for me to bail - I don't want to risk my marriage or break the promises I made to my husband - and I don't want a guy becoming so attached to me that it's unfair to him a year from now if he's totally hung up. I thought more in general about the rest of this thread, and I will qualify that yes, unlike MOST femdom women, I can have a bdsm relationship without any friendship, either. I wouldn't call it a relationship, I'd call it a fling -- if I am attracted to a guy on some level, hell yes, I can gleefully dominate him to get my pleasure, and most men line up for this. I'm a femdom who would happily pay a pro sub, after all. If I were attracted to him. I can say this only because I do have a deep (soul mate level) primary relationship with a man who is my best friend and lover as well as "fucktoy", so I don't need that -- but, I do enjoy seeing another man submit to me in certain scenarios. I have an appetite for that which will not go away. In this scenario though, no, I am not talking about a guy who I have nothing in common with. But it's clearly not dating for 6 months where the possibility for romance is on the table. Not even close. Akasha

CreativeDominant -> RE: Fucking romance (10/4/2007 1:18:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant I find your reply above to be interesting from several standpoints... You say that they do not know enough of the "real" you to love you, that they know only the kinky side. So you are one of the few femdominants that is NOT interested in a submissive who can talk about other things other than kink and/or sex? You say they have very little one-on-one time with you but they are experienced in the kinky aspects of what it is that you and they do. So again, you are one of the few femdominants that goes more towards the kinky side right away without knowing much about their vanilla life and with their interest or non-interest in your other aspects of your individuality not counting as a factor in whether or not they will serve you? You say that you have little in common in tersm of shared "vanilla" experiences. At 52, I am unlikely to meet a female submissive with who I am going to have a past history of shared vanilla experiences. But from what I have seen of most female submissives...here and elsewhere...they make it clear that they expect time to be spent on "vanilla" getting-to-know-each-other before D/s even comes into play, let alone kink. They expect it to continue even after the kink has started. Most of the femdominants seem to want that too, except for many of the professionals. Are you different from the others then? You don't want that "vanilla" getting to know-each-other time, before and during and after you have begun engaging in kinky play with the male submissives? No, of course we have enough compatibility to have conversations outside of kink - and shared interests, and things we can laugh about and enjoy. Our relationship may be more than 50% or 75% kinky, but we have compatibility right now in all areas. That's my point -- he knows me very little, compared to someone I have dated for a long time. You have to have a certain level of common interests and compatibility to interact/engage for a few months - what do people say infatuation lasts - three months? Others say six. But inside of 6 months, if someone is saying they "are falling in love" with me, I call that infatuation. Until you have shared common experiences (that means person A and person B go through a trial, a joy, an argument, etc.) -- which is FAR different from "common interests" -- I don't think it's practical or realistic to think the warm, fuzzy feelings you are having are "love." Akasha Then forgive me for being sheltered but I have rarely come across a woman such as you. What you have stated on here is...frankly...what a lot of guys say they want and catch tons of flak for from women for "only being interested in a good time" and not in them as a person. That is not to denigrate you but you do have to understand that the guys you are dealing with were more than likely brought up with the idea that you "just don't keep stringing" a girl along when you do not feel something for her. Despite what you say you want in terms of emotional feelings ...i.e., none...you also state that you want their thoughts centered on you exclusively...that you want them committed to you totally...that you want their rapt devotion and the intensity that comes from that. So you want all the feelings that will lead to that but you want those feelings to stop short of love and for them to recognize that love comes from somewhere else. But as I and others have addressed on this thread, the feelings you want from them...as noted above...are the same kind of feelings that link directly to love, misguided or false or whatever. If you don't want the confusion of those feelings with the confusion of love, then you are either going to have to pick male partners with the same outlook, pick partners whose emotions ARE elsewhere (while understanding that they cannot be obsessing over you 24/7 then) or accept the fact that you cannot ask for totality of commitment and devotion and desire and not face up to this "cliff edge" at least once in awhile and that you cannot just blame them for it.

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