How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (Full Version)

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Level -> How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 3:57:22 PM)

WASHINGTON - The gay rights movement has come a long way since 1970 when Vice President Spiro Agnew attacked a liberal Republican critic of the Nixon Administration.

Agnew called Sen. Charles Goodell of New York “the Christine Jorgensen of the Republican Party."

Pundits found Agnew's sneering reference to the well-known 1950s transsexual clever, even if a bit harsh.

Today members of Congress aren’t making such people the butt of jokes; they’re debating whether they should have protection under federal law.

Many Americans know and work with a gay or lesbian person, but how many have a nodding acquaintance with a transgender person?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21113678




Sinergy -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 4:02:59 PM)

 

I have acquaintances with all sorts, Level, including transgenders.

Im not sleeping with them, what the hell do I care.  I imagine most people's objection centers around getting all hot and horny meeting them and discovering the plumbing incompatibility after making out for an hour or two with them.

Seems kinda shallow that people judge whether a person is sexually attractive based on their plumbing, but...

As usual, just me, and I could be wrong.

Sinergy




Politesub53 -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 4:05:57 PM)

A persons sexuality, religion ( or lack of ) or colour should have no bearing on his/her rights as a person.





philosophy -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 4:07:24 PM)

i have worked with two transgenders over the years and know socially a couple more. In my experience, just as with most groups, they run the gamut of being wonderful to deeply irritating......just like real people in fact, so should not be dicriminated against......just like real people.........because they are real, albeit rare, people.




Level -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 4:20:40 PM)

I agree with all three of you.
 
I don't know any transgendered folks, personally (that I'm aware of!), but I have quite a few gay friends, and I've seen how much shit they've had to put up with; I can only imagine it's worse for a transgender person.




popeye1250 -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 5:17:48 PM)

What a person does in the privacy of their own bedroom isn't anyone else's business.
As for the "Dems" they ran on getting us out of Iraq and now Hillary Clinton is talking about keeping Troops there until 2013.
I wouldn't trust a Clinton or a Bush.




LadyEllen -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 5:17:55 PM)

Thing is Level - referring to your question as to how many know a TG person - is that hopefully, one would never know that an acquaintance was TG; the point being after all, to merge into the other gender.

But there is a need for some provisions - its truly amazing once one is in the position, how much of life outside the personal sphere is affected by changing one's gender - legal stuff certainly, but it can also affect employment, finance, insurance - you name it. In a world where, supposedly at least, men and women should be treated equally, one finds this is far from the case, and as a TG person one becomes some special category not covered by the standards applicable either way. All this causes a lot of problems, on top of the personal and family traumas associated with transition and what can be a harsh reaction from the world in general too, for the crime of not looking right.

Now, whilst the situation has some slight resemblance to the issues faced by gay men and lesbian women, its important to realise it really is also very different in nature - even though, under the LGBT / GLBT label, we tend to get boxed up altogether. Our situation is nothing to do with sexuality - its to do with something even more basic to the way society is structured, both formally under the law and informally in the social aspect - our gender. Its also important I feel, to understand that popular lesbian literature at least, frowns upon those of us who are m2f, rejecting the idea that we should ever be considered female. Note, female (gender) not women (sex).

But there is also the issue which many seem to automatically perceive when there is talk of rights for TG people (those of us with TS diagnoses), that the whole issue of crossdressers is confused with us. Naturally there are objections to the idea of a man being considered female by way of his attire, on a temporary basis from time to time, but otherwise being considered male - I can see the unfeasability of such a situation too, given that we recognise only two genders. For such confused folk, let it be clear - we're about changing gender all the time, every day, 24/7 forever, and living as "normal" people; its not the same thing at all as crossdressing. Even with the best will in the world, this is a bloody hard thing to do - its not a whim, its not a fad, its serious and only possible to do out of desperation with living in our birth gender and knowing for sure, that the other gender recognised by society is where we ought to be. We want to be recognised as female all the time, every day, 24/7 forever, and even if those looking at us cant subscribe to treat us that way, then the law and establishment certainly still could?

E




JackM1 -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 5:21:10 PM)

what a load of bullshit; it takes us years to get rights such as equality for all in the workplace and the right to abortions, and suddenly some people come up with ideas of how to take it all away. what is wrong with these people? i dont think we have ever, in the history of our country, had anything so major as these issues decided upon and then in such danger of being overturned. we got rid of slavery, but you dont see people trying to say THATS a good thing, do you? what makes equality for all in the workplace any different? if the right to free speach allows KKK members to spew their hate at people passing by their PUBLIC rallies, which are protected by the police, then why shouldnt people be able to express their sexual or gender identity with the same protection?


i will NEVER come close to understanding the politics of this country, especially when most of it seems like brain dead-common sense. let people have sex and own sex toys as they wish; its none of your business as long as no one is being hurt in the process. let women have abortions, because god knows we dont need MORE abandoned babies in the world, there simply arent enough angelina jolies for that. and for god sakes...arent we taught that it doesnt matter who a person is on the outside as long as they are a good person on the INSIDE? how can religions and school teachers preach that to us all our lives and then deny people work or fair treatment just because of what they look like, or because they are DIFFERENT from us? thats what the civil rights movement was all about, and i dont see how this should be treated differently just because the sides arent so clearly defined as being white and black.




Owner59 -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 6:10:17 PM)

I`m ok w/ T/Gs,as long as they`re passable.If not,to the back of the line with`m.

<kidding,of course>

Not for nothing,they just added gay people to the list of people protected under the hate crimes laws.

Kudos to the Dems,for that.




Level -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 6:18:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Thing is Level - referring to your question as to how many know a TG person - is that hopefully, one would never know that an acquaintance was TG; the point being after all, to merge into the other gender.

But there is a need for some provisions - its truly amazing once one is in the position, how much of life outside the personal sphere is affected by changing one's gender - legal stuff certainly, but it can also affect employment, finance, insurance - you name it. In a world where, supposedly at least, men and women should be treated equally, one finds this is far from the case, and as a TG person one becomes some special category not covered by the standards applicable either way. All this causes a lot of problems, on top of the personal and family traumas associated with transition and what can be a harsh reaction from the world in general too, for the crime of not looking right.

Now, whilst the situation has some slight resemblance to the issues faced by gay men and lesbian women, its important to realise it really is also very different in nature - even though, under the LGBT / GLBT label, we tend to get boxed up altogether. Our situation is nothing to do with sexuality - its to do with something even more basic to the way society is structured, both formally under the law and informally in the social aspect - our gender. Its also important I feel, to understand that popular lesbian literature at least, frowns upon those of us who are m2f, rejecting the idea that we should ever be considered female. Note, female (gender) not women (sex).

But there is also the issue which many seem to automatically perceive when there is talk of rights for TG people (those of us with TS diagnoses), that the whole issue of crossdressers is confused with us. Naturally there are objections to the idea of a man being considered female by way of his attire, on a temporary basis from time to time, but otherwise being considered male - I can see the unfeasability of such a situation too, given that we recognise only two genders. For such confused folk, let it be clear - we're about changing gender all the time, every day, 24/7 forever, and living as "normal" people; its not the same thing at all as crossdressing. Even with the best will in the world, this is a bloody hard thing to do - its not a whim, its not a fad, its serious and only possible to do out of desperation with living in our birth gender and knowing for sure, that the other gender recognised by society is where we ought to be. We want to be recognised as female all the time, every day, 24/7 forever, and even if those looking at us cant subscribe to treat us that way, then the law and establishment certainly still could?

E


Good post, Lady E, and good point about TG's goals to not be "known" as such.




LadyEllen -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 6:19:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I`m ok w/ T/Gs,as long as they`re passable.If not,to the back of the line with`m.

<kidding,of course>



All joking aside O59 - this is the way it works. If you look and sound OK, you get through to living a new life, without problems - people just assume youre a woman (in my case).

Example - my wife and I went to a lawyer here to organise our divorce; we're still good friends so we went together to try to get a friendly settlement without all the BS that often goes with divorce. "How can I help you?" he asks. "We'd like a divorce" I say. He looks a bit confused "you both want a divorce? Its unusual to have two wives come in together". Same sort of automatic acceptance over the phone with insurance companies, clients, suppliers, and in person.

But. When push comes to shove, none of that matters. If I call on my insurance, it could be invalid. If I get sent to jail, I go to a male prison. And so on. This is why its so important to get the legal situation for the likes of me resolved to some semblance of sense.

Yet, I'm lucky and I know it and thank the gods every day for it. I dont have to put up with the harassment, violence and so on that others get, for not being so lucky.

E




Owner59 -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 6:30:45 PM)

 I`m on your side hun,and I know that no one gets it.

I fear that it will take a bit of time,or some frightful tragedy before people wake up.

At least in this country.

How are things in the UK,as far as this issue goes?




LadyEllen -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 6:38:36 PM)

Thanks O59

Things are moved on a bit compared to the US I think - the EU Human Rights Act meant that the UK had to do something - I seem to recall only we and Albania (not EU) had no updated legislation, and the Gender Recognition Act came into force a year or so back. But this doesnt solve everything - it merely means that once you have a certificate to say you changed gender, you can get your birth certificate changed and a few other bits and pieces.

But as far as I know it doesnt deal with problems like insurance companies refusing you or invalidating your cover for failure to disclose - this is crazy, since employers need to know who is trans in order to provide properly under insurance requirements, yet theyre not allowed to ask!

I help with training the police here - their view seems to be, regardless of any certificate, regardless of SRS even, youre male - you get searched by a male officer, share a cell potentially with a male and so on. Its worse should prison become a possibility - it would be a male prison, where for one's "safety" one would be put in with the paedophiles, rapists and so on. Totally daft.

E




petdave -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 7:25:43 PM)

Interesting. i agree that they wouldn't have a chance of passing it with provisions for TG rights... tough call on whether it'll go through without that. The media, and Democrats from the major population centers, tend to forget that there is a lot of the country that isn't in those population centers... Honestly, being where i am, it's a bit of a shock to see that the discussion has even gone that far. We've still got a ways to go...




ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 7:51:53 PM)

I know I'm going to take some heat for this but I'm not sure what I think about this. I'm not sure I want a TS or TG male to female in a girls locker room working as a high school coach for example. To me that's still a man in a girls locker room. If I were female I don't think I want a TS or TG male to be able to walk into the women's bathroom at work because they had a dress on. To me that still a man in a woman's washroom.

The part of the bill that was dropped said "employers could not discriminate against workers on the basis of "gender identity” which his bill defined as “the gender-related identity, appearance, or mannerisms or other gender-related characteristics of an individual, with or without regard to the individual's designated sex at birth.” For most jobs I'm okay with this protection. But I do worry about jobs related to children especially. Female to male TS or TG as a girl scout leader? Female to male TS or TG as a football coach? Not that females can't teach football but coachs are more than that. They are male roll models. How can a TS/TG do that?

I'm sorry I just don't get it. Okay, now let the flaming begin. [sm=boxer.gif]






FatDomDaddy -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 8:59:33 PM)

Not very if they want to be elected,.





Owner59 -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 9:04:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Not very if they want to be elected,.




Why is that,fatdomdaddy?




Owner59 -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 9:26:10 PM)

 Then there`s always Giuliani,who is quite passable.

He`s pulled it off so often,that people take it as a given,that he`s a cross-dresser.

http://www.allreaders.com/rudy_giuliani.asp?autonumber=5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IrE6FMpai8

http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/15109C53-0E92-475C-8E84-E6DC479C7529/

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/election2008/ig/Election-Funny-Pictures/Giuliani-In-Drag.htm

Enjoy...




SuzanneKneeling -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 10:36:14 PM)

Well if you a-wanna know what Suzanne Suzannadana thinks about a-this, well I'll tell ya.

These trans-agenda people don't belong nowhere near politics if you ask me. They really tick me off ya know, these people showing one agenda one year and then *poof* before you know it they're a-workin with the other a-genda. Now Ted Kennedy, we know what he's talkin' bout when he tells you about his a-genda, especially in that Massachusetts accent. His "ah genda" is very clear and sounds just like his brother's (I think he works at that). But Zell Miller on the other hand... one year he's a solid, a-functioning, anatomically-correct democrat - well, okay a real conservative democrat, with a heart that barely functioned in fact - actually, kind of an a-hole if ya ask me. But anyway, you blinked your tired Sicilian darkies, and he's... had a transagenda surgery! Yeah, in some shady dark backroom of the Dirksen Office building, the cosa probably done by Bill Frist and his aides... and all a-sudden *fooof* he's a Republican, with a whole a-new a-genda. I can't abide by that kinda addenda to an agenda, you know what I mean?

And then - then there's Joe Lieberman. Says he identifies with the Democratic a-genda, but he walks, votes, sonorates (have you heard him do that?) just as if his a-genda hangs rightward. If these people are confused about their agenda -- I say they should just stay away from politics so's we don't have ta buy one a those C-SPAN program just to keep the players and their jersey numbers straight. All this agenda-bending stuff really has me tied in knots. Then, there's the freaks who suddenly say they have no agenda, like Jim Jeffords!! He had agenda, it leaned to the right - I know cause I saw it once on TV when he laid it out for everyone, in broad daylight. But he took it off one night at a press conference - right in front of his wife - and never put it back on. I think he gave it to Joe Biden in fact. So for awhile there the Senate had a-members with a-three a-gendas. Well actually two, and a guy whose a-genda was locked away in Joe's cute little student desk on the Senate floor.

Oh, and don't get me started on the "bipartisans". More a-genda than they know what to do with I guess. Talk about people who can't make up their minds... I know what Woody Allen said, that it gives you twice as much chance of getting elected on a Friday night, blah blah blah, but... what? Oh.. Really? Trans-gendered? Is that what the post said? Oh. Wellll, nevvvver miiinnd!! :)

Signing off till another night,
Suzanne Suzanadanna




satyrne07 -> RE: How far will Dems go on transgender rights? (10/4/2007 10:37:58 PM)

TG rights?
We should all simply be ashamed.    Get over that and then re-boot our brains.

I can't believe that there are Black churches in opposed to equal rights for gays.  How simple can it be? Equal rights for humans. You human? Okay.

I mean, hypocrisy is good as long as you accept that your are a flaming piece of shit. Accept that someday you might be the one in the "except non-muslims" or "except non-Albanians" or "except non-vegetarian" pile of corpses. But if you aren't okay with a standard code of rights for all humans then you are definitely a 14th Century piece of shit, regardless.

We are all good to share opinions here, yes? I mean good solid opinions. I do want to have some replies, please. Scroll down to my "WHAT IF" section if y/You are impatient.

Seems to me that L. Ellen is living what most have a chance to chatter about, so, thank You/Her for the clear and grounded example.  It also seems to me that we have a much bigger 3,000 year old riff here, one between those who think that things have an essential nature and those who believe everything is in flux.

Apologies to all who think it's enough to say Transsexual means someone who was born in the wrong body and just wants to "fix" it.

Seems to me that the problem with cross-dressers is that they are inauthentic, neither one thing nor the other.  Seems to me the problem with anyone who claims to be "authentic"  is that they are full of shit!

Seriously. There are groups of authentic white people, more-authentic-than-thou blacks, lesbians, Serbians, Christians, Shiites, Texans, subs, doms, Real Men, whatever...

Only thing that I've never heard of is a support group for authentic 18-year-olds, 31-year-olds, or 47-year-olds etc. because TIME is the one thing everyone knows is constantly in flux.

WHAT IF:

"Trans-gender" means crossing traditional (i.e. Biblical) gender boundaries?

THEN all women who wear jeans or pants of any kind, who have bank accounts and who do not menstrate in seclusion from their families are transgendered.

WHAT IF:

"Transsexual" means moving by artificial means from one's natural assigned secondary (adult) sexual characteristics?

THEN Arnold Schwarzenegger and any male on steroids is a transsexual. Same is true of Pamela Anderson and any female with breast implants. Any male taking Propecia to halt baldness and, arguably any male or female using waxing, shaving, or laser to eliminate hair, is a transsexual.

Everything else is arguing about where to draw the line for ones own self interest.







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