RE: Does Islam need a reform period?

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FetishKytten -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 12:21:01 AM)
How can fundamental prnciples be reformed? Islam requires women to wear the "hijaab" so from a fundamental perspectviie...where do you start reform?

Real0ne -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 12:44:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Spot on, Real0ne. There's no doubt that religious fundamentalism stunts the growth of a nation; it's a controlling mechanism that removes the environment for ideas to flourish, particularly ideas of individual liberty. You only have to take a look at contintental Europe in the 1500 and 1600s to see how devastating Christian religious fundamentalism was: this partly explains why England, Holland and France forged ahead at the expense of Spain and Italy, but particularly Germany which was devastated by the Christian organised chaos. Incidentally, during this period, Christians were prescribing reading the bible as a cure for illnesses which the Greeks and Muslims realised were natural diseases many centuries prior to this period. It's easy to forget that the hospital is a Muslim invention. We get carried away because Christian nations have enjoyed a 300 year period of religious tolerance and the associated prosperity, but it certainly wasn't always like that, and, at times, Christian nations were relatively backward. It's also worth mentioning that the Middle East is not a hotbed for Islamic fundamentalism: if you've been, you'll know this to be the case; if you take all your information from the bollocks served up by the media and associated business allies, you'll falsely believe otherwise: ignorance is bliss, I suppose. But that's the plan: initiate chaos in the Middle East, watch them squabble, further their weakness, and pick off their resources; where they appear to be getting their act together, e.g. Iran 1953, then step in to overthrow the government in order to prevent strong, democratic and prosperous nations in the Middle East that are in a position to control trade in that region. the first thing that comes to mind is the inquistions, then buying ones way into heaven with indulgences. How long was it since christians burned all those evil witches? Granted religions have contributed much to society but the media has gotten so bad that it is absolute fraud here in the us. WOnders if we can sue them somehow... Does it suproise anyone that we run off to war when the perp is not even wanted for the crime? LOL

seeksfemslave -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 1:22:27 AM)
Its not helpful to compare the excesses of Christianity in the past with the danger posed by Islam in the present. Many Muslims still believe that the future is theirs stemming in part from the indignities of the 11th century crusades and of course because Allah wills it. Also Western presence in the Middle East upsets them This as I see it is non negotiable at the moment but if ever bio fuels or something similar become available then we can negotiate. Immigration, high birth rates religious zeal today ,coupled with the lunacy of PC thinking are IMO building up to catastrophic future social problems. With regard to reform, I cant see how the "truth" can be reformed. Christianity in Europe was controlled and came to accept that control. That is going to change IMO if only because of a backlash against Islamic presence and at the moment seeming preference dished out by guilty and IMO quite naive Liberals. The balance of power in the Christian Church is shifting as we speak and those who may get control in the future almost certainly will not be so wishy washy as the current Archbishop of Canterbury. We shall see !

cyberdude611 -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 1:48:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne so what ever happened to live and let live? reminds me of the henny penny meddling mother in law. Then i suppose if we feel that we have the right to meddle in their lives its only fair that the elitists should set the standards and meddle in ours. You are taking cultural reletivism a bit too far.... The simple fact is that Islam is finding it very difficult to survive in an advancing world. India has started to modernize. China is modernizing. Russia is modernizing. Turkey is even beginning that process and wants to join the EU. So you look at the mid-east and you see all these countries around the mid-east moving forward and progressing socially, culturally, and economically. Meanwhile the mid-east seems to be falling further and further behind. A few years ago President Musharreff of Pakistan even criticized the current state of Islam saying unless muslim youths become more educated, it will continue to be a backward culture. And he said Islamic countries need to start sending youth to Europe and the US to get education in the arts and sciences and bring that education back to the mid-east. Musharreff recieved a major backlash in his own country and in the Islamic world for suggesting such a thing. The problem is you have a large number of Islamic fundamentalists in very powerful positions. Islamic religious leaders have enormous power in the mid-east and in most cases they have more power than government officials do. It is kind of like during the middle ages in Europe where the Pope had more power than the kings. So even when you set up a democratic government, it will still be heavily influenced by the Islamic religious leaders because if you cut them out, they will call for holy war and you have a civil war. This is the problem we are having in Iraq right now. The people respect those religious leaders more than secular educated muslims who call for government reforms. And we are having a very hard time trying to get these religious leaders to sit down at the same table without killing each other. Just like in the end, it was Christians that began the reformation and protestant movement in Christianity... it is going to be up to muslims to begin the reformation of Islam. Yes there was a time when muslims were more advanced than Europe. Everyone knows that. But remember that they are not more advanced anymore. They have fallen behind by centuries. The west has had a renaissance, a protestant movement, a civil rights movement, and an industrial revolution. This has caused significant advancement in science, math, politics, and literacy. The Islamic world in comparison has had absolutely none of that at all over the past 500 years.

meatcleaver -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 1:56:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Its not helpful to compare the excesses of Christianity in the past with the danger posed by Islam in the present. Many Muslims still believe that the future is theirs stemming in part from the indignities of the 11th century crusades and of course because Allah wills it. Also Western presence in the Middle East upsets them This as I see it is non negotiable at the moment but if ever bio fuels or something similar become available then we can negotiate. How many muslim armies occupy Christian territory? How many Christian countries have governments that depend on muslim power? Now ask yourself about Christian armies on muslim territories and how many muslim governments depend on Christian power. There was a report by leading muslim academics circulated a couple of years ago on why muslim culture is failing. Islamic militancy is not because of a belief tomorrow is theirs but because of the opposite, their culture is failing.

luckydog1 -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 2:17:20 AM)
Muslim territory, Christian territory. What exactly does that mean. What is a territory? Virtually all of the near Middle east was Christian at one time, Muslim armies took it all up into Kosovo. Armies of mostly muslims are rampaging mostly Christian areas in Sudan, Congo, Ethiopia, Indonesia. How would you clasify the KLA insurgency in Serbia? Iranian backed Palestinian armies occupy Christian lands in Lebanon. The Army of the Islamic Republic of Iran enforces its will in Christian territory in Iran. One could easily argue that the Muslims could cut off the oil and bring down every western Government, and our Governments depend deeply on "Muslim Power"(though that is an odd phrase). It seems to me that seeks point was that the radicals are trying to destroy thier current culture and situation (which you describe as failing), replacing it with an Islamic one. Instead of little countries they all live in the Umma(isn't that the right word) under Sharia enforced by the Caliphate. I don't think a reformation can be imposed paticularly well. "Reformed" Islam already exists and has for a long time.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 2:44:55 AM)
MC: it is true that no Western advanced nation requires Islamic support for its survival but that is NOT the point. First you simply cannot gloss over the West's total dependance on oil. That flow must be sustained by whatever means. Note the flow would not even exist were it not for Western expertise and development. The threat to the West comes not from established Islamic governments but from the religious fundamentalists who are trans national in scope and commited to the point of self destruction to inflict change on us. That includes you MC for all your Liberal attitudes. Cyberdude's post sums up the difficulty even "moderate progressives" have in places like Pakistan and Iran. We are in danger: to paraphrase McEnroe...... Lets be serious !

seeksfemslave -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 3:33:57 AM)
quote: Meatcleaver Islamic militancy is not because of a belief tomorrow is theirs but because of the opposite, their culture is failing. Assuming by culture you include the economy then I agree that Islamic culture is a failure when compared with the West. If you take culture in its broader sense, especially sexual mores , family values things like that then fundamentalist Muslims think it is we who have failed and are degenerate and polluting . It is that moral perspective, as well as Western political/economic hegemony, to which they are opposed and are now so worked up about as to want to kill us.

GoldStallion -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 4:39:01 AM)
Someone earlier mentioned that Islam was having a hard time surviving in the modern world. Last time I checked it was the fastest growing religion. The Islamic agenda in Europe is to establish a Caliphate. The plan is through increasing numbers and infiltrating all levels of society in European states. In the UK this is happening very effectively. We have a Muslim Council of Britain, which are consulted on policy yet have no legal status and are not even democratic and Prime Minister Brown as chancellor helped establish Shariah banking policies, I believe with their own tax rules. There are also Shariah courts in every major city in the UK. They have no legal status and they do not respect UK law - whilst they are working underground at present, they are still not being shut down. Add that to the fact that you cant say boo to a muslim in the UK, thanks to the muslim initiated (Muslim council of Britain) laws for inciting racial hatred and the fact that mosques are getting planning permission left right and centre and I would say Islam is having a reformation. And everyone should consider the coming religion initiated dark ages. We have a strong movement in favour of faith schools in the UK as well. The thing is, if I set up a place for children to come 5 times a day (and thats moderate islam) to be hypnotised and brain washed I think I would (rightly) be thrown in prison. Islam is one of the most extreme positions anyone can hold. The Koran, more so than other religious texts, is a madmans mandate for irrationality. They firmly believe that reality is miserable shite and paradise awaits. ANYONE who lives with that as a backdrop for their life needs locking up: then it can be true for them. Finally I have this to pose: Muslims say if you hurt one you hurt us all, but when it comes to taking collective responsibility for the actions of a few "madmen" you see nothing but complaint from the Islamic community. "Dont point the finger at us" etc. Fuck the lot of them, and that includes all religions. If they cant live peacefully in non muslim/christian/whatever countries without trying convert everyone then if its them or me to die, I choose them. And before anyone gets on one about respecting beliefs let me just say beliefs can be reviewed and changed in light of facts, if you want to put the effort in. Anyone can do that every day. If someone wants to persist in believing a fairy tale thats none of my business, but if they start trying to make me believe it and respect it then it becomes entirely my business. In the UK today we have to tip toe around all kinds of bullshit without upsetting whichever deluded freak thinks its the word of God written on the page. Thank you for listening.....to keep this ministry going please send donations to......

meatcleaver -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 4:48:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave MC: it is true that no Western advanced nation requires Islamic support for its survival but that is NOT the point. First you simply cannot gloss over the West's total dependance on oil. That flow must be sustained by whatever means. Note the flow would not even exist were it not for Western expertise and development. The west's dependence of oil is in its own control. The fact that western economic ideology promotes over consumption is a weakness of the west's own making and is not dependent in any way, shape or form on what resources Islamic nations have.

meatcleaver -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 5:05:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoldStallion Someone earlier mentioned that Islam was having a hard time surviving in the modern world. Last time I checked it was the fastest growing religion. If westerners are converting to Islam or allowing Islamic immigration, that is of the west's own making and not the making of muslims. The Islamic agenda in Europe is to establish a Caliphate. The plan is through increasing numbers and infiltrating all levels of society in European states. What Islamic agenda? Who are these muslims? Where are they? This is just paranoia. In the UK this is happening very effectively. We have a Muslim Council of Britain, which are consulted on policy yet have no legal status and are not even democratic and Prime Minister Brown as chancellor helped establish Shariah banking policies, I believe with their own tax rules. The fact that a country is sensitive to the minorities in its midst is no bad thing. What would you do, set in motion a final solution? Hasn't Europe been here before? There are also Shariah courts in every major city in the UK. They have no legal status and they do not respect UK law - whilst they are working underground at present, they are still not being shut down. There are lots of people breaking laws and anyone breaking laws are punished, including muslims. Add that to the fact that you cant say boo to a muslim in the UK, thanks to the muslim initiated (Muslim council of Britain) laws for inciting racial hatred and the fact that mosques are getting planning permission left right and centre and I would say Islam is having a reformation. And everyone should consider the coming religion initiated dark ages. This is nonsense. The last person as far as I am aware who was prosecuted for inciting racial hatred was a muslim! We have a strong movement in favour of faith schools in the UK as well. Muslims point out that there are Christian and Jewish faith schools and want to be treated equally in that respect. The way to shut down muslim schools is to outlaw all faith schools. The government won't do that and with Britain being a country of equal rights, the muslims can have their schools too. Now in France, there are only state schools, no Christian schools, no Jewish schools and so no muslim schools. The thing is, if I set up a place for children to come 5 times a day (and thats moderate islam) to be hypnotised and brain washed I think I would (rightly) be thrown in prison. I think you ought to look at Christians and Jews, they also brain wash their kids in the same way. Islam is one of the most extreme positions anyone can hold. The Koran, more so than other religious texts, is a madmans mandate for irrationality. They firmly believe that reality is miserable shite and paradise awaits. ANYONE who lives with that as a backdrop for their life needs locking up: then it can be true for them. Have you read the bible lately? The first recorded genocide is in the bible and its on the orders of god. Finally I have this to pose: Muslims say if you hurt one you hurt us all, but when it comes to taking collective responsibility for the actions of a few "madmen" you see nothing but complaint from the Islamic community. "Dont point the finger at us" etc. They don't say don't point the finger at us. They say don't treat us all like terrorists. Fuck the lot of them, and that includes all religions. If they cant live peacefully in non muslim/christian/whatever countries without trying convert everyone then if its them or me to die, I choose them. I think you are nailing your racist colours to the mast here. And before anyone gets on one about respecting beliefs let me just say beliefs can be reviewed and changed in light of facts, if you want to put the effort in. Anyone can do that every day. If someone wants to persist in believing a fairy tale thats none of my business, but if they start trying to make me believe it and respect it then it becomes entirely my business. In the UK today we have to tip toe around all kinds of bullshit without upsetting whichever deluded freak thinks its the word of God written on the page. I think all religion is about believing in fairies but that doesn't alter the issue, people should be respected even if you can't respect their beliefs. Thank you for listening.....to keep this ministry going please send donations to......

cyberdude611 -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 5:12:48 AM)
You have a good point. Islam's growth in Europe is something like 200%. But I think when you look at the past decade, Islam was allowed to grow. In other words there was very little resistance to it. That resistance is starting to grow especially recently in France where racial tensions are heating up. And you are starting to see that conflict between Islam and the modern world. You are seeing this in Britain where there has recently been a wave of Islamic fundamentalism. So there is a clash of the culture starting to appear and this is going to be a growing problem for Europe over the next 20 years.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 5:33:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave MC: it is true that no Western advanced nation requires Islamic support for its survival but that is NOT the point. First you simply cannot gloss over the West's total dependance on oil. That flow must be sustained by whatever means. The west's dependence of oil is in its own control. The fact that western economic ideology promotes over consumption is a weakness of the west's own making and is not dependent in any way, shape or form on what resources Islamic nations have. Amongst the many valid points on many subjects you have made MC, tho' usually with an anti Western theme, thats just about the silliest point you have ever made. Any technically advanced economy will require large quantities of hydro carbons to produce just about everything. From the "commies" in China to the "neo cons" in the US. The political/economic position is irrelevant. Hair shirted PC thinkers might not agree lol

Politesub53 -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 5:59:22 AM)
Its ironic to think that in the UK we welcome the building of any church, mosques included. Yet Iran refuse to allow any Sunni mosques in Theran. The reformation didnt change the way Christian churches worship, except now Catholics and Protestants follow their own idea, much the same as Sunni and Shia. The main problem is zealots of all religions, also there is a lot of vying for power oil ect that is masked as religion. Sadly, if we all lived a thousand years, men will still be fighting for power and control of the worlds resources.

meatcleaver -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 6:13:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave MC: it is true that no Western advanced nation requires Islamic support for its survival but that is NOT the point. First you simply cannot gloss over the West's total dependance on oil. That flow must be sustained by whatever means. The west's dependence of oil is in its own control. The fact that western economic ideology promotes over consumption is a weakness of the west's own making and is not dependent in any way, shape or form on what resources Islamic nations have. Amongst the many valid points on many subjects you have made MC, tho' usually with an anti Western theme, thats just about the silliest point you have ever made. Any technically advanced economy will require large quantities of hydro carbons to produce just about everything. From the "commies" in China to the "neo cons" in the US. The political/economic position is irrelevant. Hair shirted PC thinkers might not agree lol If a country has resources and another hasn't, that is tough and irrelvent as to whether one country is muslim or not. The west is advanced enough to create alternatives as well as being able to reduce the amount of oil it uses without effecting its economy. The average American uses twice as much energy as the average European, the EU claims that 30% of all energy used in the Europe is wasted. So there is plenty of scope to reduce reliance on oil from Islamic countries. New Yorkers use on average similar amounts of energy as average Europeans so it is possible to exist in America on European levels of consumption. The fact that the west relies on oil so much is because of western governments pandering to special interest groups, not because it is necessary.

meatcleaver -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 6:44:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 You have a good point. Islam's growth in Europe is something like 200%. But I think when you look at the past decade, Islam was allowed to grow. In other words there was very little resistance to it. That resistance is starting to grow especially recently in France where racial tensions are heating up. And you are starting to see that conflict between Islam and the modern world. You are seeing this in Britain where there has recently been a wave of Islamic fundamentalism. So there is a clash of the culture starting to appear and this is going to be a growing problem for Europe over the next 20 years. 200% of what? There is approx 24 million muslims in Europe (excluding Turkey) in a population of 550 million (depending where you draw the boundary of Europe). 3.5 million of them are in Albania, a muslim country. 6 million of those are in France. That leaves many European countries that have between 1-3% muslims. Hardly numbers that engender fear excapt for the exceptionally paranoid. There is 1.8 million muslims in Britain, in a country of 60million that is less than 2%by my calculations, hardly enough to consider a take over.

Real0ne -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 7:02:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Immigration, high birth rates religious zeal today ,coupled with the lunacy of PC thinking are IMO building up to catastrophic future social problems. With regard to reform, I cant see how the "truth" can be reformed. Christianity in Europe was controlled and came to accept that control. That is going to change IMO if only because of a backlash against Islamic presence and at the moment seeming preference dished out by guilty and IMO quite naive Liberals. The balance of power in the Christian Church is shifting as we speak and those who may get control in the future almost certainly will not be so wishy washy as the current Archbishop of Canterbury. We shall see ! How many fundamental christians have murdered their brothers in the name of god? How many wars have been fought as a result of judeo-christianity vs evil? Is this not a war between fundamental christianity and islam? It was required for women to wear veils over their heads at church only a short 40 - 50 years ago in the 50's and 60's, and women were not allowed and wouldnt dream of participating in the serving od mass or preaching until just a few short years ago. We can thank fundamental judeao-christianity and the romans etc for giving us the foundations of our very well written constitution but fundamentalism goes with every "religion". EIther for good evil or both and christianities great advancement seems to all have evolved over the last 50 years. Then again has it? We are after all chasing the great evil.

Real0ne -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 7:10:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoldStallion Islam is one of the most extreme positions anyone can hold. The Koran, more so than other religious texts, is a madmans mandate for irrationality. They firmly believe that reality is miserable shite and paradise awaits. I am not so sure about that. I can point out some pretty gory aspects of irrational christianity (bible), and jew, (talmud) as well.

Real0ne -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 7:16:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 You have a good point. Islam's growth in Europe is something like 200%. But I think when you look at the past decade, Islam was allowed to grow. Why shouldnt they be "allowed" to grow? Are you suggesting we do away with religious freedom? I think this should be an eye opener to other religions that they are losing popularity with the public at large and they need to ask themselves why? What is driving this exodus and what do they need to do to attract people to their religion. I think fundamentalism is a curse of any religion that we will have to live with. I also think that if islam is so horrible than why are modern educated people so attracted to it at a rate of 200%, or are we getting dumber? I think this sends a message to religious leaders and governments alike.

GoldStallion -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 7:27:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: GoldStallion Someone earlier mentioned that Islam was having a hard time surviving in the modern world. Last time I checked it was the fastest growing religion. If westerners are converting to Islam or allowing Islamic immigration, that is of the west's own making and not the making of muslims. Does that change the fact that its the worlds fastest growing religion? No. It is a stated aim of Islam that conversion of infidels is a duty of every good muslim. So whilst its irrelevant to my point who's, as you like to put it, "making" it is, you also happen to be wrong. The export of idealogy is a central tenet of wahabist islam. The conversion of infidels a central tenet of all islam (and of course most other religions). The Islamic agenda in Europe is to establish a Caliphate. The plan is through increasing numbers and infiltrating all levels of society in European states. What Islamic agenda? Who are these muslims? Where are they? This is just paranoia. The Islamic agenda of the Wahabist Muslims. These muslims are the most dangerous, to the western way of living. They are dispersed all over the place, but I believe the highest concentration is in the middle east. Saudi Arabia particularly. There are plenty in the UK and Europe who follow this aspect of Islam, and they are all muslim brothers so we are supposed to respect them all as the same - according to Islam. Those are the facts. Wheres my paranoia? In the UK this is happening very effectively. We have a Muslim Council of Britain, which are consulted on policy yet have no legal status and are not even democratic and Prime Minister Brown as chancellor helped establish Shariah banking policies, I believe with their own tax rules. The fact that a country is sensitive to the minorities in its midst is no bad thing. What would you do, set in motion a final solution? Hasn't Europe been here before? Actually I think sensitivity to minorities is extremely bad. Every time you protect the rights of a minority the rights of the majority are eroded. There should only be one protection: the rights of the individual. That way everyone regardless of race etc is protected. Thats what I would do. And please, get off the rather transparent character assassination to discredit a point. Discredit it with argument by all means. If you have a point I will absorb into my arsenal...pretty much opposite to the entrenched attitude you are displaying. There are also Shariah courts in every major city in the UK. They have no legal status and they do not respect UK law - whilst they are working underground at present, they are still not being shut down. There are lots of people breaking laws and anyone breaking laws are punished, including muslims. Well, thats not the real world. Anyone breaking laws are punished? Unless you happen to be a judge, politician, priest or policeman. Oh yes, or criminal. Muslims are punished by UK law, I agree, when caught - however they are also administering their own sharia law, often in opposition to UK law, on each other. Thats not being bothered with by the authorities; these communities are the ones setting up the sharia courts illegally. Why would they be doing that if they didnt have an agenda? for a hobby? Add that to the fact that you cant say boo to a muslim in the UK, thanks to the muslim initiated (Muslim council of Britain) laws for inciting racial ( I meant to say religious hatred here) hatred and the fact that mosques are getting planning permission left right and centre and I would say Islam is having a reformation. And everyone should consider the coming religion initiated dark ages. This is nonsense. The last person as far as I am aware who was prosecuted for inciting racial hatred was a muslim! That doesnt change the fact that the rest of us have to stomach all the religious nonsense of the deluded without saying what the reality is "This is nonsense and its a fairy tale and I dont respect your beliefs if its interefering with me living my life". Take the example of the vale worn by teachers at school or in the courtroom, or at passport control. You speak up against that, for perfectly valid reasons, and all hell breaks loose. We have a strong movement in favour of faith schools in the UK as well. Muslims point out that there are Christian and Jewish faith schools and want to be treated equally in that respect. The way to shut down muslim schools is to outlaw all faith schools. The government won't do that and with Britain being a country of equal rights, the muslims can have their schools too. Now in France, there are only state schools, no Christian schools, no Jewish schools and so no muslim schools. I agree entirely with you here. I would certainly outlaw all faith schools; if you havent noticed I dont have time for any religion, not just Islam. Its just they happen to be the rising religion at the moment in my part of the world. The thing is, if I set up a place for children to come 5 times a day (and thats moderate islam) to be hypnotised and brain washed I think I would (rightly) be thrown in prison. I think you ought to look at Christians and Jews, they also brain wash their kids in the same way. Very true, however the zeal seen in "moderate" Isam is not seen in moderate Judaism or moderate Christianity, at least in the UK. You have to find extremist forms of those religions to find an equivalent appetite for indoctrination. The fact is most people in the UK are Christian and never go to church. Most people in the UK who are Muslim, and thats not a small number, go to mosque daily, at least once, often several times. And the relevance of that is that the whole thing is hypnosis and indoctrination away from reality. A reality which they share with the rest of us and have a fucking responsibility to deal with for ALL of our benefits. Thats how societies grow and thrive: by dealing with reality. All the periods if History in Europe where there has been progress in society, which includes promotion of some of the ideals you would seem to hold dear, correlate with a direct opposite in the hold of religion on the people : and one big indicator of that is how much they actually attend church etc. Islam is one of the most extreme positions anyone can hold. The Koran, more so than other religious texts, is a madmans mandate for irrationality. They firmly believe that reality is miserable shite and paradise awaits. ANYONE who lives with that as a backdrop for their life needs locking up: then it can be true for them. Have you read the bible lately? The first recorded genocide is in the bible and its on the orders of god. Do you really believe that is true? ie that GOD ordered a genocide? I think its more likely that a PERSON decided to do a bit of genocide and thought he would get some help by using the higher authority of GOD to hypnotise his colleagues. In any case it doesnt change what I said about the Qu'ran. Finally I have this to pose: Muslims say if you hurt one you hurt us all, but when it comes to taking collective responsibility for the actions of a few "madmen" you see nothing but complaint from the Islamic community. "Dont point the finger at us" etc. They don't say don't point the finger at us. They say don't treat us all like terrorists. Well, thats the same thing isnt it. They are having the finger pointed at them by being treated like terrorists. You know what, the current terrorists ARE muslim, so muslims are probably a good place to start looking for terrorists. What do they expect? There is a lot of tacit and vocal approval within the muslim community for terrorist acts that kill people that have nothing to do with any war anywhere. That is a muslim phenomena in the UK where we have muslims stating "yeah we think the suicide bombers on the tube are heroes" That sounds a lot like support to me. Fuck the lot of them, and that includes all religions. If they cant live peacefully in non muslim/christian/whatever countries without trying convert everyone then if its them or me to die, I choose them. I think you are nailing your racist colours to the mast here. Really? Since when was a religion a genetic characteristic you idiot? (idiocy may well be a genetic characteristic btw). Its a belief system - its subject to review and change. No mercy for you here, as I already explained this later.... And before anyone gets on one about respecting beliefs let me just say beliefs can be reviewed and changed in light of facts, if you want to put the effort in. Anyone can do that every day. If someone wants to persist in believing a fairy tale thats none of my business, but if they start trying to make me believe it and respect it then it becomes entirely my business. In the UK today we have to tip toe around all kinds of bullshit without upsetting whichever deluded freak thinks its the word of God written on the page. I think all religion is about believing in fairies but that doesn't alter the issue, people should be respected even if you can't respect their beliefs. Really? So do you respect paedophiles who are adamant they are doing the kids they destroy a favour? If so you must have nil respect for yourself. Get a backbone. Often people can be respected inspite of their beliefs - but I am dealing with the belief part of them, not the whole of them. And sometimes a persons beliefs mean I cant respect them - racism is a good example. Thank you for listening.....to keep this ministry going please send donations to......

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