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RE: About Goth - 10/5/2007 11:31:37 AM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

What do you see as the core of Goth as religous? Never heard anything like that before.

The hardcore Goth individuals I've encountered share a fundamentally deviant world view; a world in which vampires, werewolves, and "magik" exist. I'd say it's more "religious" than a particular religion as its varied; they tend to take more to the "whatever you want to believe in must be true" than the "this book tells us what's true" bit.

They're prone to making self-indulgent beliefs; it's not just that there are vampires, but that they happen to be a particularly important vampire who has some kind of odd fate. Or that they have a particular and unique value to the "magik" community. Or something along these lines.

Some might adopt that they're possessed by Hell, or.. something. Admittedly, it can be rather difficult to list all of the various beliefs I've encountered.

Again, I'd say that there is the goth style- people who just dress like that or like the art. But, this other part to it, beyond the clothing- the fundamentally different view of reality is the escential definition of religion.

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RE: About Goth - 10/5/2007 11:33:48 AM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Honest question CL, not trying to bait. I am the new rehabilitated LuckyDog...What do you see as the core of Goth as religous? Never heard anything like that before.

I've noticed that if one labels anything religious or spiritual it justifies it beyond question.

You haven't need for this concern about me. Taking stupid and presumptious ideas and putting them up on a pillar will draw my disgust regardless of social niceities.

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RE: About Goth - 10/5/2007 11:47:11 AM

iammachine

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quote:

Again, I'd say that there is the goth style- people who just dress like that or like the art. But, this other part to it, beyond the clothing- the fundamentally different view of reality is the escential definition of religion.

You've been hanging out with too many gamers and pagans, dude. Lots of people have an affinity for the dark and spooky - sure that's what defines the culture. Sure, there are some that are quite into myticism. As for mythical creatures - some people have a fascination with horror, some people play too many White Wolf games

and some may even emulate certain mythical creature practices into their lives (sanguinarians, energy vamps, etc). I think creating a world where "vampires and werewolves" exist might be going a bit far - at least in the traditional sense. I've yet to meet a person with fangs that has claimed eternal life and was afraid of the sun that wasn't a complete fruitcake. :) That isn't saying that there's anything particularly fruitcakey about anyone that engages in certain activities (again, sanguinarians, etc), but there's a definite line between, say, practicing blood play.... and believing that you're undead. :)

Sure, a fair amount of goths have an attraction to alternative belief systems (so do many hippies, and punk rockers), but subculture != religion. I know plenty of people in the "goth" scene from all spiritual persuasions (or lack thereof) - from judeo-christian, to neo-pagan, to eastern philosophies and agnostic/atheism. I'd be hard pressed to draw a correlation between any particular beliefs (or even practices) and an entire subculture, however.

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RE: About Goth - 10/5/2007 2:24:30 PM

FullCircle

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What is this bash the Goth day? They are harmless and I kind of admire what Goth couples have with one another. That kind of evident powerful love is rare these days.

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RE: About Goth - 10/5/2007 4:19:41 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: iammachine
quote:

Again, I'd say that there is the goth style- people who just dress like that or like the art. But, this other part to it, beyond the clothing- the fundamentally different view of reality is the escential definition of religion.

You've been hanging out with too many gamers and pagans, dude. Lots of people have an affinity for the dark and spooky - sure that's what defines the culture. Sure, there are some that are quite into myticism. As for mythical creatures - some people have a fascination with horror, some people play too many White Wolf games and some may even emulate certain mythical creature practices into their lives (sanguinarians, energy vamps, etc). I think creating a world where "vampires and werewolves" exist might be going a bit far - at least in the traditional sense. I've yet to meet a person with fangs that has claimed eternal life and was afraid of the sun that wasn't a complete fruitcake. :) That isn't saying that there's anything particularly fruitcakey about anyone that engages in certain activities (again, sanguinarians, etc), but there's a definite line between, say, practicing blood play.... and believing that you're undead. :)

Gamers and pagans? Doesn't that cover anyone who except for people who are both Christian and avoidant of games? But, meh. :P

I'm talking about the guys in highschool. And, please, don't assume I hang out with people just because I see them. ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iammachine
Sure, a fair amount of goths have an attraction to alternative belief systems (so do many hippies, and punk rockers), but subculture != religion. I know plenty of people in the "goth" scene from all spiritual persuasions (or lack thereof) - from judeo-christian, to neo-pagan, to eastern philosophies and agnostic/atheism. I'd be hard pressed to draw a correlation between any particular beliefs (or even practices) and an entire subculture, however.

Didn't I make a point of how they believe in many different things..? That inclines Judeo-Christianity, Eastern religions, and whatever "neo-pagan[ism]" is. Just because there's a lot of these religions doesn't mean that they're not there.

It's sort of amusing, though.. what would you consider to be an atheist lifestyle goth?

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RE: About Goth - 10/5/2007 5:10:40 PM

petdave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

I was goth before GOTH was goth.

Does that mean that the people who now think that they're goth are now actually you?

Whoah...

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RE: About Goth - 10/5/2007 5:14:27 PM

Bufotenin

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quote:

It's sort of amusing, though.. what would you consider to be an atheist lifestyle goth?

Robert Smith of the Cure is an outspoken atheist. It's very likely Edward Gorey was as well, and Tim Burton definitely isn't a man of faith.

Many, if not the majority, of those who fall under the umbrella-term 'goth' are either atheist or agnostic. You'll find a lot of renaissance faire fans are either Christian or New Age-types. I don't believe that makes "the core of renaissance faires religious".

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RE: About Goth - 10/5/2007 10:06:42 PM

iammachine

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quote:

Didn't I make a point of how they believe in many different things..? That inclines Judeo-Christianity, Eastern religions, and whatever "neo-pagan[ism]" is. Just because there's a lot of these religions doesn't mean that they're not there.

It's sort of amusing, though.. what would you consider to be an atheist lifestyle goth?

Which is my point, there is no real correlation between religion and the gothic subculture. There are no universal religious unterones to the scene. To be honest, attributing them to it is a bit dangerous, in my opinion. I have distinct memories of having holy water thrown on me in high school because the local superstitious twats thought I was a satanist. Actually, that was kind of funny, but that's a story for another time.

What would I call an atheist "lifestyle" goth? A goth. To be honest, the current "goth" scene is so incredibly diverse, and so far removed from its roots (death rock and dark wave of the late 70s/early 80s), that it's hard to attribute any sort of common values to it aside from an affinity for spooktacular goodness.

--edited for we are typonese if you please--

< Message edited by iammachine -- 10/5/2007 10:18:15 PM >

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RE: About Goth - 10/5/2007 10:13:11 PM

iammachine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

What is this bash the Goth day? They are harmless and I kind of admire what Goth couples have with one another. That kind of evident powerful love is rare these days.

Punk is dead! Goth is... undead!

Lots of people are harmless, lots of people are self absorbed, pretensious gits; regardless of whatever (sub)group they affiliate with.

Anyway, I don't think goth kids love eachother any more intensely than anyone else. Most of the "powerful" love I have seen amongst the scene has been so damn powerful that it lasts an eternity.... or, at least if feels that way when the hangover kicks in and the amorous couple sees what their partner really looks like outside of the snackbite and black goggles and club lights.

-iammachine
so gawth that she refuses to be goth :)

< Message edited by iammachine -- 10/5/2007 10:15:10 PM >

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RE: About Goth - 10/6/2007 5:15:31 AM

Manawyddan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bufotenin
Robert Smith of the Cure is an outspoken atheist. It's very likely Edward Gorey was as well, and Tim Burton definitely isn't a man of faith.

I would certainly not consider Gorey a goth, unless you want to coin a term such as 'paleogoth'.

Burton is a detestable example of a pseudogoth.

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RE: About Goth - 10/6/2007 9:05:22 AM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: iammachine
Punk is dead! Goth is... undead!
Lots of people are harmless, lots of people are self absorbed, pretensious gits; regardless of whatever (sub)group they affiliate with.
Anyway, I don't think goth kids love eachother any more intensely than anyone else. Most of the "powerful" love I have seen amongst the scene has been so damn powerful that it lasts an eternity.... or, at least if feels that way when the hangover kicks in and the amorous couple sees what their partner really looks like outside of the snackbite and black goggles and club lights.
-iammachine
so gawth that she refuses to be goth :)

I’ve always been an outsider looking in I suppose but it always appeared intense to me. Like them seahorses that mate for life but in reality they don’t after all. I guess if I’d been an insider looking out I would have heard the Goths insulting everyone else but I’ve only ever seen these kinds of attacks one way.

Me personally I’m a conforming non conformist i.e. I’ll leave wearing outlandish outfits to those that think it distinguishes them from others when in reality it just makes them a stereotype. Case in point: every Architect I have ever worked with has some strange dress code that they think makes them unique, if only they’d seen other Architect’s wearing almost exactly the same thing. Apart from planning Architect’s they are just squares like me.

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RE: About Goth - 10/6/2007 9:20:14 AM

chellekitty

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no one liked my ways of being sadistic to my fellow goths?

chelle...the sweet innocent angelic virginal baby goth with sharp teeth and a kitty bell on her baby pink collar

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RE: About Goth - 10/6/2007 11:06:50 AM

Bufotenin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manawyddan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bufotenin
Robert Smith of the Cure is an outspoken atheist. It's very likely Edward Gorey was as well, and Tim Burton definitely isn't a man of faith.

I would certainly not consider Gorey a goth, unless you want to coin a term such as 'paleogoth'.

Burton is a detestable example of a pseudogoth.

Because to be a goth you have to slap on makeup and prance about pretending to be mysterious and privy to deeper things the rest of the world will never understand? If every high-school kid who begs for attention by dressing in Hot Topic concert tees, painting his or her face like a mime, and playing Christian Death annoyingly loud is 'goth', then I fail to see why folks like Gorey and Burton, whose life's body of work draw from and perpetuate the very same themes and motifs that spawned the sub-culture, aren't 'goth'.

Sorry Joy Division, come back after you buy some tuxedos and fishnets, eh?

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