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when you post a comment in a thread - 10/5/2007 10:21:53 PM   
winterlight


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tyvm
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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/5/2007 10:48:13 PM   
TheHeretic


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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 12:47:31 AM   
winterlight


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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 5:26:59 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		if a tree falls in a forest; and no one hears it- did it make a sound???

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 6:27:32 AM   
MadameMarque


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

if a tree falls in a forest; and no one hears it- did it make a sound???


Of course.  I've never understood why this was supposed to be a mystery or a meditation.  Did it stir vibrations and create soundwaves?


"Either he's dead or my watch has stopped."
 
- Groucho Marx

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 6:44:53 AM   
GoldStallion


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameMarque

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

if a tree falls in a forest; and no one hears it- did it make a sound???


Of course.  I've never understood why this was supposed to be a mystery or a meditation.  Did it stir vibrations and create soundwaves?


"Either he's dead or my watch has stopped."
 
- Groucho Marx


I think the reason you dont understand why its a meditation is because you havent given it much thought. How do you know the sound waves are there unless you measure them? Does observation alter reality? Quantum physics tells us observation alters reality quite a lot.

Does the very fact that the sound waves are not measured mean they dont exist? How much are we connected to the production of the sound, if at all?

How do you know that the only reason sound waves exist is because we happen to pick out a pattern from total chaos, rather like seeing the name of your next lover by ignoring all the letters that dont form their name in a newspaper.

If we pick out patterns like that then arent we just making an experience of reality up out of "white noise" - could we make a different experience happen if we understand that?

All this is philosophically rich territory and leads to some very interesting conclusions. Some of them can make a big difference to life and happiness.



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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 7:39:38 AM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameMarque

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

if a tree falls in a forest; and no one hears it- did it make a sound???


Of course.  I've never understood why this was supposed to be a mystery or a meditation.  Did it stir vibrations and create soundwaves?


"Either he's dead or my watch has stopped."
 
- Groucho Marx


I think the reason you dont understand why its a meditation is because you havent given it much thought. How do you know the sound waves are there unless you measure them? Does observation alter reality? Quantum physics tells us observation alters reality quite a lot.

Does the very fact that the sound waves are not measured mean they dont exist? How much are we connected to the production of the sound, if at all?

How do you know that the only reason sound waves exist is because we happen to pick out a pattern from total chaos, rather like seeing the name of your next lover by ignoring all the letters that dont form their name in a newspaper.

If we pick out patterns like that then arent we just making an experience of reality up out of "white noise" - could we make a different experience happen if we understand that?

All this is philosophically rich territory and leads to some very interesting conclusions. Some of them can make a big difference to life and happiness.


in my senior year of high school- contempary literature was a mix of philosophy. I am not in this room. The room is around me.


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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 9:21:03 AM   
MadameMarque


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Status: offline 		I just think that physical events occur, whether they are being observed by any person or not. 

Or, in another way of viewing it, is anything actually unobserved?  Doesn't everything ripple through everything else?  And if you believe that reality is a consciousness, then that consciousness observes reality.  

But basically, when I hear that question, "if no one hears a tree fall, does it make a sound?" I don't think all of that.  I just think, of course. 

And if you want to pick the question apart, it fell over without anyone watching it, didn't it?

Apparently a different construct than yours.

I do believe in the subjectivity of reality, in the ability to create and influence reality, in "miracles."  I tend to think there is an objective reality.  I'm not sure which part is objective :P

I do not observe that the first belief is contradicted by the rest.

Understanding requires not just a moment of perception, but a continuous awareness, a continuous state of inquiry, without conclusion.
 
- Bruce Lee

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 11:52:51 AM   
GoldStallion


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Status: offline 		I like the point you make about "is anything unobserved"...I hope to hell some things are, or I am going to have to deal with a few pissed off husbands!


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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 3:09:14 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

if a tree falls in a forest; and no one hears it- did it make a sound???


A soundwave is nothing more than air molecules bumping into one another and causing a wave similar to the way you create ripples in water by dropping a rock into it. That's called compression and rarefaction. In order to 'hear' the sound that wave will produce you have to have a transducer, such as an ear. Without a transducer, you can't convert the mechanical energy of the air molecules into sound. So, to answer the question, if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound .. the answer is no, it does not.  Nothing to do with philosophy though. This is straight up physics.

Celeste

edited for typo

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 10/6/2007 3:12:19 PM >

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 3:12:55 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		If you left a tape recorder in the forest the tree would make the sound. I don't consider a tape recorder a person.

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 3:15:56 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		All my life I have associated colours with things; grass is green, fire is hot, blue is the sky and the sky is cold. My eye sees wavelengths my brain gives these wavelengths colours. Sooooo do you see red and call it what I call blue?

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 3:30:16 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

If you left a tape recorder in the forest the tree would make the sound. I don't consider a tape recorder a person.


Sorry, no. A tape recorder is not a transducer. You would need a microphone hooked up to the tape recorder. The microphone will transduce the vibrations in the air and convert the acoustic energy and turn it into an electrical impulse which is sent into the tape recorder which magnetizes the tape in very specific magnetic pattern.

Then you take your tape recorder, play it back and the tape recorder takes the magnetic pattern on the tape, turns it back into electrical impulses which are sent to a speaker which turn the electrical impulses back into mechnical energy which vibrates the air molecules which goes into the ear, vibrates the ear drum, turns it back into electrical impulses and your brain converts those impulses into what we perceive as sound.

This of course, leads to the question.. if there is a tape recorder in the forest and there's no one there to turn it on, will it still record? ::grins::

Celeste



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"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 3:33:09 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		Yeah I have to admit I was thinking of one of them tape recorders with the built in thingamajig.

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 3:37:49 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
in my senior year of high school- contempary literature was a mix of philosophy. I am not in this room. The room is around me.


We should banish the word 'in' then because it is obviously obsolete.



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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 3:38:09 PM   
brightspot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

if a tree falls in a forest; and no one hears it- did it make a sound???


A soundwave is nothing more than air molecules bumping into one another and causing a wave similar to the way you create ripples in water by dropping a rock into it. That's called compression and rarefaction. In order to 'hear' the sound that wave will produce you have to have a transducer, such as an ear. Without a transducer, you can't convert the mechanical energy of the air molecules into sound. So, to answer the question, if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound .. the answer is no, it does not.  Nothing to do with philosophy though. This is straight up physics.

Celeste

edited for typo


If animals are there it does make a sound and they would be scurrying out of the way, human ears aren't the only ears that could be around, to say  if no one is there, meaning human does not make it true.
You would maybe have to say "If no living creature with hearing are not there".
 
Missy.

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 3:48:05 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

if a tree falls in a forest; and no one hears it- did it make a sound???


A soundwave is nothing more than air molecules bumping into one another and causing a wave similar to the way you create ripples in water by dropping a rock into it. That's called compression and rarefaction. In order to 'hear' the sound that wave will produce you have to have a transducer, such as an ear. Without a transducer, you can't convert the mechanical energy of the air molecules into sound. So, to answer the question, if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound .. the answer is no, it does not.  Nothing to do with philosophy though. This is straight up physics.

Celeste

edited for typo


If animals are there it does make a sound and they would be scurrying out of the way, human ears aren't the only ears that could be around, to say  if no one is there, meaning human does not make it true.
You would maybe have to say "If no living creature with hearing are not there".
 
Missy.


Wise ass. ::smirks::

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 4:01:05 PM   
GoldStallion


Posts: 68
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

if a tree falls in a forest; and no one hears it- did it make a sound???


A soundwave is nothing more than air molecules bumping into one another and causing a wave similar to the way you create ripples in water by dropping a rock into it. That's called compression and rarefaction. In order to 'hear' the sound that wave will produce you have to have a transducer, such as an ear. Without a transducer, you can't convert the mechanical energy of the air molecules into sound. So, to answer the question, if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound .. the answer is no, it does not.  Nothing to do with philosophy though. This is straight up physics.

Celeste

edited for typo


Thats pretty neat. However, what you claim to be straight up physics misses one philosophical point out: How can you be sure that this is the only way to hear a sound? Composers imagine music - no airwaves, no transducers. Are they hearing the sound? It can be as vivid as the real thing.

You divide the process into two parts: hearing, which the ear does through receiving the soundwaves, and soundwaves which the tree makes. The original problem states, "does it [the tree] make a sound"? Presumably you are not suggesting the tree does not produce those physical air ripples when it falls? Sound(waves) and hearing are two components, but they are seperate. Sound as a received sense is not something the tree would make anyway, as you elegantly point out, that happens in us - so the only thing the tree can make is soundwaves. The ear does not convert the airwaves into sound, it converts the soundwaves into the sensation of hearing. We hear sound. One part is us (hearing), the other part is external stimulus (sound/soundwaves).We dont sound sound. Sound is a name for a particular electromagnetic spectrum of energy, is it not? It is therefore external and seperate to us.

Thus I suggest that the tree is able to produce the sound regardless of observation.




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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 4:06:41 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoldStallion
Sound is a name for a particular electromagnetic spectrum of energy, is it not?


I thought the electromagnetic spectrum covered a certain frequency range and all sound fell outside of that?

X-rays, infrared, ultraviolet, red, blue, green, all the variation in between but not sound.

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 4:10:20 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		http://www.purchon.com/physics/electromagnetic.htm#chart

Yep thought so.

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