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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 4:25:21 PM   
Ponyboy7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

Sound is a name for a particular electromagnetic spectrum of energy, is it not? It is therefore external and seperate to us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

I thought the electromagnetic spectrum covered a certain frequency range and all sound fell outside of that?



FullCircle is correct; electromagnetic radiation is self propagated. The electroweak (the electromagnetic force combined with the weak force) force is mediated by bosons. In the case of the electromagnetic spectrum, these are photons. Sound waves are mechanical waves that are not self propagating; they travel via pressure differences in the medium (in this case air). The longitudinal nature of sound waves results in compressions and rarefactions of the air.

Photons can travel in a vacuum since they are self propagating; a vastly simplified view would be to consider the photon as oscillating electric and magnetic fields both of which are perpendicular to the direction of propagation. Conversely, sound cannot travel in a vacuum since it needs a medium in which to setup local compressions and rarefactions. Sound needs atoms or molecules to compress and decompress against for the wave to be transmitted.

< Message edited by Ponyboy7 -- 10/6/2007 4:28:34 PM >

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 4:39:59 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		It's really just easier to say that sound's a mechanical wave, like the waves on the ocean surface.

And, guys.  That old proverb may've meant something back before they understood basic physics.  And I mean very basic stuff.  But it doesn't anymore.  All it is now is people getting into a useless debate over the instance of a definition- whether sound's just sound waves or the interreptation of sound waves by a human.  Which, since it's used both ways, is a rather stupid debate to have.

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 4:42:06 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Which, since it's used both ways, is a rather stupid debate to have.


Ya just have to go and spoil it all the time don't ya.

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 4:42:20 PM   
Sinergy


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Status: offline 		I read something a few weeks ago that the oft-repeated maxim that sound does not travel in space is incorrect.

A cubic meter of space contains, on average, 3 atoms or molecules.   These oscillate from something that generates some sort of disturbance, eventually hitting atoms in the next cubic meter, and so on.

Sinergy

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 4:44:04 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		Yeah but is that sufficient for sound transport?

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 4:51:05 PM   
Ponyboy7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I read something a few weeks ago that the oft-repeated maxim that sound does not travel in space is incorrect.

A cubic meter of space contains, on average, 3 atoms or molecules.   These oscillate from something that generates some sort of disturbance, eventually hitting atoms in the next cubic meter, and so on.

Sinergy


Sinergy, you are actually correct; sound cannot travel in a vacuum, but space is not a perfect vacuum. Intergalactic space has an average matter density of about 10-100 atoms per cubic meter; interstellar space has an even greater matter density. So in point of fact sound can actually travel through parts of space. I was just pointing out the difference between sound waves and electromagnetic waves. If one could have a true vacuum (which opens another can of worms, but anyway) sound could not travel through it, but photons could.

< Message edited by Ponyboy7 -- 10/6/2007 5:36:54 PM >

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And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 5:05:11 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

Thats pretty neat.


It's just basic science.

quote:

However, what you claim to be straight up physics misses one philosophical point out: How can you be sure that this is the only way to hear a sound?


A question which has been answered by science is no longer philosophical, my friend.

quote:

 Composers imagine music - no airwaves, no transducers. Are they hearing the sound?


No, that's a chemical reaction in the brain, not sound. I've already explained how 'sound' is heard.

quote:

 It can be as vivid as the real thing.


Only for the person who's brain happens to be involved.

quote:

You divide the process into two parts: hearing, which the ear does through receiving the soundwaves, and soundwaves which the tree makes. The original problem states, "does it [the tree] make a sound"? Presumably you are not suggesting the tree does not produce those physical air ripples when it falls?


I was pretty clear in stating that it does produce soundwaves and even gave an analogy so that it was clearly understood (water, ripples, rocks, remember?). Did you misread my post?

quote:

 Sound(waves) and hearing are two components, but they are seperate.


So far you're only restating what I've already stated.

quote:

Sound as a received sense is not something the tree would make anyway, as you elegantly point out, that happens in us - so the only thing the tree can make is soundwaves.


Well, sound is not a received 'sense' but I do understand what you're trying to say.

quote:

The ear does not convert the airwaves into sound, it converts the soundwaves into the sensation of hearing.We hear sound.


Eh, close enough.



quote:

Sound is a name for a particular electromagnetic spectrum of energy, is it not?


Um, no, it is not.



quote:

Thus I suggest that the tree is able to produce the sound regardless of observation.


Well, then you'd be wrong. ::shrug::

Celeste

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 5:07:35 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		Hummm does a woodpecker pecking a tree make a sound when no one is around to hear it? A more interesting point is what do they peck trees for anyway, anyone?

edit: -n

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 10/6/2007 5:09:11 PM >

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 5:09:33 PM   
Darkmike


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Status: offline 		Yes they make a sound, as they are a quantum observer, and they peck trees to make somewhere to nest.

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 5:12:08 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkmike

Yes they make a sound, as they are a quantum observer, and they peck trees to make somewhere to nest.


The little buggers, bloody annoying. Now I have to ask what a quantum observer is. Why do the answers to questions always lead to more questions?


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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 5:17:26 PM   
Darkmike


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Status: offline 		Ask schrodinger's cat.

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/6/2007 5:18:44 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		Is that the one in the box?

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/7/2007 12:59:45 AM   
MadameMarque


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

if a tree falls in a forest; and no one hears it- did it make a sound???


A soundwave is nothing more than air molecules bumping into one another and causing a wave similar to the way you create ripples in water by dropping a rock into it. That's called compression and rarefaction. In order to 'hear' the sound that wave will produce you have to have a transducer, such as an ear. Without a transducer, you can't convert the mechanical energy of the air molecules into sound. So, to answer the question, if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound .. the answer is no, it does not.  Nothing to do with philosophy though. This is straight up physics.

Celeste



Your remarks depend upon a definition of "sound," that requires it be percieved by someone.

According to these definitions, "sound" can be defined as a phenomenon that is percieved, or as one that is perceivable, or as simply the transmitted vibrations that create sound:

1.
a. Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing.
b. Transmitted vibrations of any frequency.
c. The sensation stimulated in the organs of hearing by such vibrations in the air or other medium.
d. Such sensations considered as a group.


Amusingly, conveniently, the example used of the word, in the thesaurus, in context, was this:
sound - mechanical vibrations transmitted by an elastic medium; "falling trees make a sound in the forest even when no one is there to hear them"


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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/7/2007 1:21:16 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

BitaTruble
So, to answer the question, if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound .. the answer is no, it does not.  Nothing to do with philosophy though. This is straight up physics.

I like this answer.
Other points made by other posters are "tricky dick " semantics IMO, like a lot of philosophy eg that area that claims we cant really know what happens in the world outside us. lol

By the way "sound" waves are pressure variations in a medium. In this case air.Adding: had not read page 2 when I posted the this. Since two have made the same point the case is closed lol.
The tendency of molecules to collide is a function of the heat energy supplied to that medium.
Only boastin'

A real problem is how do Electro Magnetic waves travel thru' a vacuum.
Good job they do tho' or where would we all be lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 10/7/2007 1:36:36 AM >

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/7/2007 1:26:19 AM   
came4U


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From: London, Ontario
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quote:

You have an "edit" option that is good for about an hour.  After that, it becomes permanent unless you are on very good terms with a Mod.


Mods have friends?

Mods actually come to forums?

How is that ethical? 

What good is a ref if they can trip the players at random? 

Shouldn't the ref play hockey on Sundays at a different arena?

How can such ref not be bias if under peer pressure to agree?  If so, I want to know who are monitors and who their friends are.  Someone send me a list to the other side, or elsewhere, yanno how to find me. lol

I am most disturbed by this.

Isn't that akin to someone bi polar being in charge of a mental illness site? Shouldn't that person be paid to monitor and only to check for key-bad-no no words or phrases?

If the only commonality is the bdsm we share, shouldn't an outside party rule on the actual forum guidelines (no flaming, no names, no bla bla) and it not be personal in any way whatsoever?

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/7/2007 2:56:32 AM   
ScooterTrash


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From: Indiana
Status: offline 		If you have a pecker...you are probably going to use it :-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Hummm does a woodpecker pecking a tree make a sound when no one is around to hear it? A more interesting point is what do they peck trees for anyway, anyone?

edit: -n


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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/7/2007 3:37:29 AM   
GoldStallion


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Joined: 8/28/2007
Status: offline 		Ahh, thanks all for the clarifications on Electromagnetic spectrums.

The soundwave is still a form of energy and still external to us, nonetheless. So isnt it just semantics, to fit the science, to say that the sound is referring to what is heard by the ear rather than what is produced by the tree falling? Because what I am certainly clear about is that the word sound can refer both to the sensation of hearing and also the vibrations in whatever medium that create this sensation.

And Celeste, just because no one else can hear the music in a composers head, why does that mean it isnt sound? Just because it doesnt fit your scientific definition of sound? Sound has been around a lot longer than physics. Remember science, including Newtonian physics, has been turned on its head more than once in history. My point here is scientists often seem uncomfortable advancing philosophical arguments and often prefer to rely on experimental data to prove hypotheses.

Philosophy would tend to observation of reality, from which a theory can then be derived based on what is observed, and I suggest that seems a little more likely to explain actual reality.

If the tree falls, it makes sound - according to Celeste's physics (which I agree with), but not her understanding of the word sound (which I disagree with). If it doesnt make sound(waves) then your physics needs a massive rethink.


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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/7/2007 3:59:13 AM   
came4U


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From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		Sound does not occur until the waves hit a solid upon it's course.  Therefore no sound in space (or is there, if not some many miles away to some 'thing' in the wave's path?). Why do most assume that there is not sound unless someone is there to hear it?  Any such shockwave is 'heard' by even a tree, a living plant. 

This thread goes upon deaf ears only as a distraction mode from reality.  But, if I continue to purchase from the main page sponsors, I would and will distinctly disconinue to do so if I found out any owners advocate nonsense from ego-mongling freeloaders.  Business is business.  Sometimes ego can ruin a marketable enterprise yet that person has nothing to lose.  I would be interested to know these persons for my own curiosity but I honestly shouldn't have to, nor care to. I am in no need to censor myself either, I feel I am pretty clean as is (without 50 internet people as God's witness to it either). I know I am of abolute unmaiming of the crucial internet laws (formal and informal). 

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/7/2007 3:59:35 AM   
georgejames68


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Joined: 1/28/2006
Status: offline 		Sound is "a disturbance of mechanical energy that propagates through matter as a wave. Sound is characterized by the properties of sound waves which are frequency, wavelength, period, amplitude and velocity or speed." The perception of sound is not necessary for the sound to exist. As a tree falling in the woods (unless the trees are in a vacuum) will cause compression waves to propogate outward away from the disturbance. Those compression waves are sound regardless of the availability of a "sensor" capable of detecting those waves.

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RE: when you post a comment in a thread - 10/7/2007 4:56:01 AM   
georgejames68


Posts: 72
Joined: 1/28/2006
Status: offline 		Yup it is CuriousLord but I hate to waste my search, especially the last item in this following list

DOES A TREE FALLING MAKE A SOUND
- - - - -
From the point of view of physics, sound is considered to be the waves of vibratory motion themselves, whether or not they are heard by the human ear.
- - - -
Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing. (Note: CAPABLE of being heard…. No mention that they have to be heard!)
- - - -
A longitudinal pressure wave of audible or inaudible sound.
- - - -
If a tree falls and nobody hears it, does the tree make a noise? Tricky one! Please consider this twist:

A philosopher, strolling alone in a forest, hears a tree plunging noisily earthwards. Startled, he clutches his chest and dies before the falling tree had hit the ground. So...
Question - did the falling tree stop making a noise the instant the unfortunate philosopher snuffed it?

If the falling tree ceased making noise when the the philosopher died, then the energy of the sound waves rippling through the air at the moment of his death would have been nullified.

This causes us a big headache! Energy cannot be created or destroyed. So our thought experiment leads to a paradox, -an indication that our assumptions are wrong. We must conclude that the tree continued to make noise after the philosopher died, even though there were no observers present. And if true for this falling tree, then why not for all falling trees?

Thought Experiment of Death: One day, in the distant(?) future, you, dear reader, will die!
Question - When you die you will stop observing the Universe. When this happens, will all falling trees, all philosophers, everybody and everything - the whole Universe - stop making a noise for ever? Will everything stop existing?

If you were the unfortunate philosopher in the thought experiment above, then the falling tree will not only continue to exist, it will continue to make a noise too. As will the whole Universe. Only you will be silenced...
- - - -
Let us remember that in the English language most words have more than one definition and if you pick the wrong definition, you will get the wrong answers!




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