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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 6:42:11 PM   
whiteginger


Posts: 4
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		I would never dream of making a man's decision on what he should do about say, erectile dysfunction or protate cancer...not a sexist position, just gender compassion and realism.

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 221
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 6:43:37 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Well, with as much fun as I've having being told that only women can understand what life is without any good reason, I think it's time to focus more on my studying.

As normal, I'll try to get back and respond.  But, please, no more sexist statements.  I've made plenty of arguements representing my views, so I'd appreciate if those were consulted before posts to me so that I may avoid unnecessary repetitions.

And, please, no more name calling from any of those currently involved.  I get you may not like what I have to say; if that's the case, please block me.

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 222
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 6:45:06 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

i find the taking of an innocent life to be a disgusting act.....

i do not see a fetus as a life.......


So.. because I'm a man.. I'm incapable of understanding that you don't think a fetus is life?

Hum.  You know something.  I'm a Chemical Engineer.  Pretty good with, you know, Biology 'n Chemistry and stuff.  I was unaware that being a woman would predispose you towards understanding the nature of a fetus more than all my education.  I can see now how you're the one who should be able to tell me that it's not a life.

Nope, screw my logic, reason, and education.  You're a woman, and therefore your word is law.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne
does that explain it you, you poor, stupid man?


Yeah.  I really feel like the stupid one right now.


as you should...im glad youre finally getting it......

show me one thing that proves with your logic, reason,  and education, that a fetus is a life.

once you have done that, would you mind parting the red sea too-i have always thought that would be kind of cool to watch, and im sure someone there has a cell camera and it will get on youtube.

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 223
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 6:47:05 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

The last thing people in emotional agony need is the law persecuting them.


Pretty good reason not to break it, then, right?  Sort of like the codepedent boyfriend who just lost his girlfriend of six years because she couldn't take it anymore. Psychologically, he's in absolute, obsessive, uncontrolable agony.  (Such is the state of such loss to a codepedent.)  But, if he kidnaps her, rapes her, or kills her (as codependents generally find loss to death much easier to deal with), he should still be prosecuted, right?

Just because someone really wants something doesn't make it right- even if that something is killing another to stave off some agony. 


My god, your analogy is completely ridiculous, you really do not have a clue about this topic. How you can make a comparison between adults murdering each other and a personal decision a woman makes about her own body and her own future is beyond comprehension.


(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 224
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 6:47:15 PM   
KinkyJewishCpl


Posts: 17
Joined: 4/30/2007
Status: offline 		You should all be aware that according to the Bible (Book of Exodus), a fetus is considered property, not a human being, as written in <a href="http://www.chabad.org/library/article.htm/aid/9882/jewish/Chapter-21.html" target="new">Exodus 21:22-25</a>:
"And should men quarrel and hit a pregnant woman, and she miscarries but there is no fatality, he shall surely be punished, when the woman's husband makes demands of him, and he shall give [restitution] according to the judges' [orders]. 23. But if there is a fatality, you shall give a life for a life, 24. an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot, 25. a burn for a burn, a wound for a wound, a bruise for a bruise."

Please note that the punishment for killing someone else's fetus is monetary compensation only, not death, unless the mother has died as a result.

(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 225
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 6:49:54 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

But isn't it the state only telling us we can't destroy the body of another?  That's nothing new.



...no it's not. The state can tell us not to murder someone we see on the street. Their existence is uniquely theirs. A fetus is not uniquely itself, it is a part of the mother until it is developed enough to survive outside the womb. Up to that point your analogy is invalid, in my view....after that point we may find some common ground.

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 226
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 6:59:01 PM   
MissSCD


Posts: 1185
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline 		Just FYI:

I happened to look at Curious Lord's profile.  He is a merely a 20 year old male.
I am a 48 year old female who has studied this issue.  
What Curious Lord and the rest of us need to understand is that the liberal side of the coin (democrats) and the conservative side of the coin (republicans) have different views.  Depending upon whom is elected is the way the abortion law will take form. 
Now it is in the hand of the converative republican. 
When it goes to the right, abortion will begin relax in its requirements.
What does this all mean to me, who cares?  Really, who cares at all.

Regards, MissSCD

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 227
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 7:09:51 PM   
hermione83


Posts: 393
Joined: 8/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Se is a natural and healthy part of life. Sex is actually a requirement for the "normal" human to be healthy physically emotionally and mentally. We are not by any means perfect. Our choices leave us in situations to ponder over for the rest of our lives. We have enough in dealing with that...why the hell do we need somebody else on our backs about it?

what was that about casting the first stone?


I really truly am not wanting to make people who have already gone through it feel bad. There's no point. What's done is done. I wish them the best, and I think it’s crazy that some one kept bring up executing them. I don't even believe in killing heartless killers, and that's not what I think these would-be mothers are. I know it’s horrible for most of them. (To the few that it's not.. I have no words..). I am not a guiltless person, at all. I know people make mistakes. And that's why there are children's homes, and people who adopt, volunteer, counseling centers, etc, as outlets. I'm not saying a woman has to keep her child. I don't think that most women would suffer significantly more having a baby inside of her for a few more months. And I don't believe for a second that people require sex to be healthy. That's absurd. Are you going to cease to live without sex? No. I'm still kickin'. My great aunt Marie, who's a 94 year old virgin, is as happy as can be. I imagine she'd be less happy if she had had to have had an abortion earlier in her life. There are some monks and nuns out there who are the happiest, most giving, aware people out there. There was a huge study on happiness, and a book written about it. The #1 thing that makes people happy is taking the focus of their selves and helping others in some way. Making other people happy makes US happy. It's for us as much as for them. It's hard, but I'm not any stronger than anyone else. I am a virgin, and there is NO REASON all of you all couldn't be as well, unless you were raped. Men and women.

And every post seems to be about how a baby is a part of a woman. I'm sorry; my arm is a part of me. My arm will never develop into anything more than a part of me. I think a person is a person at that first second of conception. A baby is not a "part" of its mother. It's no different to me than any of you all are separate from me.. And, a fact is a fact, independent on what any person or persons, including what the majority of people believe. People can be wrong about what they believe a fact to be, but a truth is truth, and it does not change based on what anyone believes it to be. That's always been a peculiar arrogance of humans, to think that they make truth. Truth will exist, before, during, and after our lives have passed.


(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 228
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 7:12:28 PM   
AttackWomb


Posts: 2
Joined: 9/23/2007
Status: offline 		As a rabid pro-choicer I tried to read the entire post and all the responses but it began to make me angry.  So, instead, I'll just give my two bits.  Unless you supersede the rights of the woman carrying the zygote/embryo/fetus for the matter inside her body then you cannot expect compulsory gestation.  Either bodily autonomy is a human right or it isn't.  As for the "its life and when you kill it it's murder" argument, well, science has yet to back up this perspective and even then you'd have to give equal rights to a clump of cells prior to viability.  In the end you are either arguing for slavery of those with wombs or human rights.  

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 229
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 7:13:36 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I'm a little disappointed that no one has tackled the Bernard Shaw question of whether women who have abortions should face the same penalties (including perhaps execution) as other "murderers."


Nope.
 
I'm against abortion, and the death penalty.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 230
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 7:15:33 PM   
aldonza1


Posts: 7
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline 		You know, if even some of the energy was channeled into helping the people that are already here, then I would have respect for the hard core pro-lifers. Hot air, mean words and rightous opinions mean NOTHING and are WORTHLESS unless they are backed up with acts of generousity to those kids who are here now...again in my opinion. 

< Message edited by aldonza1 -- 10/7/2007 7:21:11 PM >

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 7:16:41 PM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I look at the basic fact that no one has the right to tell a woman she can or can't have an abortion. The reasoning why a woman wants to have one, I feel, rests on her conscience and I do not have the right to say if she is right or wrong in her choice.


< Message edited by beargonewild -- 10/7/2007 7:17:45 PM >

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(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 232
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 7:17:31 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aldonza1

And needless wars??


Yeah, those are pretty fucked up, too.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to aldonza1)
Profile   Post #: 233
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 7:18:06 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I'm a little disappointed that no one has tackled the Bernard Shaw question of whether women who have abortions should face the same penalties (including perhaps execution) as other "murderers."


Nope.
 
I'm against abortion, and the death penalty.


Thank you, Level. Life imprisonment then?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 234
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 7:19:43 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I'm a little disappointed that no one has tackled the Bernard Shaw question of whether women who have abortions should face the same penalties (including perhaps execution) as other "murderers."


Nope.
 
I'm against abortion, and the death penalty.


Thank you, Level. Life imprisonment then?


No, maybe just a good, sound beating.
 
I'm kidding.



_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 235
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 7:28:10 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I'm a little disappointed that no one has tackled the Bernard Shaw question of whether women who have abortions should face the same penalties (including perhaps execution) as other "murderers."


Nope.
 
I'm against abortion, and the death penalty.


Thank you, Level. Life imprisonment then?


No, maybe just a good, sound beating.
 
I'm kidding.


But seriously, I think Shaw made a good point with his question, namely that we hear precious little about how those who would outlaw abortion (and I don't know if that group includes you) would enforce the law.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 236
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 7:37:57 PM   
hermione83


Posts: 393
Joined: 8/1/2007
Status: offline 		I've never thought about criminally punishing a woman, since they could stop doctor's from doing them... I think maybe at least some kind of short speedy investigation on whether there's cause for an abortion where a family court judge would hear from doctors, the mother-to-be, the father, any of their parents/family, and if there had been any police reports filed for rape, etc etc. This might get more to have the courage to report rapes as well.

< Message edited by hermione83 -- 10/7/2007 7:39:06 PM >

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 237
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 7:42:30 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Shaw did indeed make a good point. I would like to see the majority of abortions banned. As for punishment.... I don't know, dc. Honestly, I'm not nearly as interested in punishing someone already likely in emotional pain, as I am in protecting what I see as a human life.
 
While I see abortion as the taking of a life, I don't view it the same as if someone shoots a person. I realize that many people do not see the fetus as alive; their honest intent is not to "murder", and that matters, IMO.
 
Lots of hard decisions all around.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 238
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 8:25:02 PM   
MySweetSubmssive


Posts: 1139
Joined: 2/7/2006
From: Lehigh Valley, PA
Status: offline 		dc, you mentioned that you haven't always been pro-choice.  What motivated your initial stance, and what made you change?

MSS

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--Miss Moneypenny

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 239
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 8:41:49 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

People really do grow up differently.


True. And I didn't have the benefit of being a genius.


Kind of funny how often one can be insulted for it.


CL --

My apologies for insulting you! I really do try not to get personal on the boards (well, aside from flirting with beargonewild), but emotion gets the better of me at times.

DC

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 240
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