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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 9:21:07 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

dc, you mentioned that you haven't always been pro-choice.  What motivated your initial stance, and what made you change?

MSS


MSS ---

My initial stance grew out of my intensely Catholic childhood: parochial school, prep seminary, yearly bus trips to the March for Life on January 22nd. I was taught to see abortion as a civil rights issue, with pro-lifers staunchly defending those who could not defend themselves.

My views starting shifting (to the muddle that they are now) in high school. A teacher who thought I ought to know what I was opposing gave me a copy of Roe v. Wade. I was particularly struck by the part of the decision that sketched how abortion has been viewed in different times and places. It was a revelation to learn that abortions, particularly before "quickening," had been accepted at points throughout history. Clearly there wasn't the unanimity of moral opposition to it that I'd been led to believe existed.

In college, friendships with women and a fabulous women's studies class gave me my first real opportunity to hear female perspectives on the issue. I came to realize that the issue was far more complex than I'd ever realized, that women bring to the decision a mix of deep emotions and anguish that belied my mental caricature of them as thoughtless murderers bent only on their own convenience. This realization was deepened by learning that a very dear friend, who is far from a murderer, had had an abortion during her troubled youth. I really came to identify with a woman's perspective when the priest at the Episcopal church I used to attend asked me to create a ritual she might use with a parishioner who'd had an abortion and felt lingering guilt about it.

Coming out as a gay man influenced me too. I began to see that the political forces opposing abortion tended, by and large, to be fiercely homophobic as well. This had two effects. First, I began questioning: "If they're wrong about homosexuality, might they be wrong about abortion too?" Second, I came to feel a sense of kinship with my fellow targets, i.e., women who supported abortion rights. I also noticed that antiabortion forces seemed not to be particularly concerned about children once they were born. Blend, for instance, the Reagan Administration's pro-life rhetoric with its cutting of programs that actually help poor mothers and children.

Then there was that Bernard Shaw question I keep trying to get people to answer. In all my time at pro-life meetings and rallies, I'd never heard anyone suggest that doctors who perform abortions or women who have them should be punished. That seemed to suggest that,in their hearts of hearts, even pro-lifers realized that ending a pregnancy was not truly the same as, say, gunning someone down on the street. If we're honest, I think we all know that the question is far tougher and more nuanced than the slogans on either side would have us believe.

Two readings influenced me a lot. One was the Barbara Ehrenreich essay that I quoted earlier in the thread. I was particularly struck by her point that having abortion as a safety net allows women to use safer birth-control options. The other reading was Marge Piercy's poem Right to Life, which I found very moving.

I still don't know exactly what I make of abortion. But I increasingly doubt that the crude machinery of law and punishment is the best tool for addressing this complex issue.

Shalom,

DC



< Message edited by dcnovice -- 10/7/2007 9:41:28 PM >


_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 9:23:16 PM   
Aceton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

I cannot believe we are discussing this on a BDSM site.

To me, abortion is simply not an option.  To others, abortion is the right to choose.  Leave it alone. 
Quit trying to make something over nothing that was ever intended to be done, and to the op, please don't bring it up again.  For heavens sake, abortion is a personal choice with a need for education of other alternatives.
I will stand by that. 
There is no way in hell that we will ever agree on this issue.  No used to attack each other.


Regards, MissSCD


What the HELL? What is with people who try to tell others what to do on an open forum? If you don't like what is being said here, leave. If you can't handle a topic, don't read it. Nothing makes you look more like a pompous little twit than trying to tell people what topics they can and cannot bring up in an international open forum. Seriously.

Obviously many people are enjoying discussing the issue, and airing their opinions, and others are enjoying reading along and perhaps learning something here or there. I know I am. Get the hell off the forums if all you want to do is close down other people's avenues of communication based on your personal, and may I say in this context, completely irrelevant, preferences.

(in reply to MissSCD)
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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 9:37:06 PM   
kdsub


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There are a lot of posts and I tried to read most but there are so many …I hope I am not repeating.

If results are the bottom line for anti abortionists then they are failing and guilty of killing babies just as much as those getting abortions.

Why not take all that money wasted on politicians and demonstrations and address the reasons many women get abortions. I’ll bet they would save many more babies by giving pregnant women options such as financial aid… continuing education…childcare services...and job training. I truly believe most women, if they could see a way to have a life and a baby, would follow their heart.

Holding pictures of mutilated babies… picketing doctor’s homes…spending vast sums on anti-abortion ads… will only divide further and may never convince a majority of America.

Time to think and save.
Butch

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 9:50:36 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLynx

I know, major hot blood topic   I believe it should be legal, despite that I would not get an abortion. I think it is murder. However knowing other people view it differently, it should be up to the individual......BUT! Have you thought of what if they outlaw abortion? What's next? birth control? I mean people don't want to believe this, but women could end up losing most if not all that we have strove for.  It was only 80 odd years ago that we got the vote!  And after the get done gunning for women, who is next?  I got to say if they do outlaw abortion, I will move.  I love the USA, but if my abililty to choose goes out the window, then this country will have ceased to be what I thought it was.


I think outlawing abortion is a bad idea. If abortion is made illegal, women will go back to having back alley abortions like they did in the past when it was illegal. If the one who performs the abortion doesn't know what they're doing, the woman could suffer permanent damage or end up dying. If something went wrong, she couldn't seek medical attention without being arrested. In some cases, abortion may be the best option. What if carrying the fetus endangers the woman's life? What if the fetus is conceived through incest or is badly deformed?

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 9:57:55 PM   
diphyes


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I have only one thing to say: http://youtube.com/watch?v=dHaZgCViUL4
Put that in your uterus and incubate it.


_____________________________

Many are the wand bearers;
I bear with me no sign;
Yet, I was mad, was drunken,
Ere yet I tasted wine;
Nor bleeding grape can slacken
The thirst wherewith I pine;
And the god, the true Iacchus,
Hears now this song of mine. - Edith Thomas

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 10:10:19 PM   
blueeyespup


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hermione83

A baby is not a "part" of its mother. It's no different to me than any of you all are separate from me..



i just wanted to say that i respect your opinion ~and everyone's opinions ~  but i have to respond to what you said about a baby not being "part of its mother"

i have a beautiful daughter and when she was inside of me, she was absolutely a part of me. i nurtured her with the food i ate.  i would not smoke.  i would not drink alcohol.  if i felt happy, this affected this child inside me.  if i felt sad, this also effected the child inside me.  everything about her was connected to me and a part of me in every way.  its a pretty amazing thing actually. that little being inside you is completely dependant upon you. we were one throughout the entire pregancy and by the time 9 months had gone by and i got to hold that little angel in my arms, it was as though i was wearing my heart on the outside.  she's still part of me now but of course in a very different way.

anyway i just had to add my two cents because i have carried a child and know first hand that a baby inside his or her mother is definitely a part of her :)


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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 10:11:02 PM   
chellekitty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

Just FYI:

I happened to look at Curious Lord's profile.  He is a merely a 20 year old male.
I am a 48 year old female who has studied this issue.  



a much greater woman than i had an opinion of individuals such as you....

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.

her name was Elanor Roosevelt...

chelle...the 24 year old who hates it when the arguement is reduced to attacking age because the arguers can no longer discuss the merits of the argument................


_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 10:14:07 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.

her name was Elanor Roosevelt..


I've seen that quote various places, but never attributed to Mrs. Roosevelt. Are you sure she's the one who said it?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to chellekitty)
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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 10:29:56 PM   
chellekitty


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yes, i am sure...unlike many people, i am sure of who i quote...

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 10:48:01 PM   
hermione83


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I realize that a mother and child are connected, are bonded eternally, and the child lives and feeds off of the mother. But what I mean is, it is a separate soul, person, from the mother. It is not like the mother's eyes or mouth. It get's half of it's DNA from it's mother, but it is not, ever, in fact, it's mother. They are not the same.

---------

quote:

Two readings influenced me a lot. One was the Barbara Ehrenreich essay that I quoted earlier in the thread. I was particularly struck by her point that having abortion as a safety net allows women to use safer birth-control options.


This is one reason why I don't have sex. The fact that I don't want kids, and I never would allow myself to think that there's a violent back-up that would help me get *my* life in order. I don't think this should ever be considered a safety net. You might as well have just said that if you can kill a rich person and take their money, it's okay to gamble with your own. What? If you have sex, the consequences should be yours. It was your deed. Not your child's.

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 11:13:14 PM   
MySweetSubmssive


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When I said that the baby was part of it's mother, I was really saying that.  It isn't a metaphor.  It starts out as a part of it's mother.  blueeyespup stated this beautifully, much better than I could have.  *blows kisses to blueeyespup*  Through some miracle, I make the baby out of my own flesh.  I find that mind blowing.   And the fact that it is a part of me means that I have a serious, personal choice to make.

And as to soul ... one of the things I was grappling with earlier about the baby being "human" or not was this issue of soul.  I'm not sure when a soul comes into the body.  I don't think it's always the same answer.  When I was pregnant, there was a being that was with me, but I don't think that it's soul settled into the body.

MSS

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--Miss Moneypenny

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RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 12:17:25 AM   
chellekitty


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if you want to get technical, your baby can be created completely independently of you...in vitro fertilization anyone? 
if i remember correctly, your eggs are actually created in the womb, prenatally, and they mature as your body matures....to put it very simply....
sperm, i don't remember about that....and i'm ok with saying i don't know...but its not some mystery...and its not magic...and its not a "miracle"...its just plain science...the way God designed it ... wonders at what point baby's get soul's....is it when they take their first breaths? is it when their heart beats? hmm no...that would make them human way to early for the abortion clinics...when the parent says they do...well i say that my onry 15 year old isn't human so i am going to do a perinatal abortion....(sarcasm)....



_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 12:24:37 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

if you want to get technical, your baby can be created completely independently of you...in vitro fertilization anyone? 


If you want to bring that IVF embryo to term, though, you need to implant it in a woman's body.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 253
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 12:24:58 AM   
MySweetSubmssive


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I don't see science and mystery/miracle as mutually exclusive. With no mystery, life isn't worth living.

And, yes, technically, a baby can be concieved in a petri dish.  I don't think it can be brought to gestation outside the human body, though.

MSS

_____________________________

"Oh, James, you're such a cunning linguist."

--Miss Moneypenny

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RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 12:32:49 AM   
julietsierra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hermione83

I've never thought about criminally punishing a woman, since they could stop doctor's from doing them... I think maybe at least some kind of short speedy investigation on whether there's cause for an abortion where a family court judge would hear from doctors, the mother-to-be, the father, any of their parents/family, and if there had been any police reports filed for rape, etc etc. This might get more to have the courage to report rapes as well.


So let me get this straight. You are horrified at the prospect of someone aborting but see nothing wrong with doing damage to those already living? A "short speedy investigation into whether there is cause for abortion" again, puts someone else in charge of whether or not it's right for the person who might have to have an abortion. In my case, it would surely have caused some horrendous damage to the children I had already delivered and was raising. So, what about them? Do they not count at all to you? Which is more expendable?

That question: "Which is more expendable?" is seriously the question I had to answer for myself when in my belief system, no one was expendable. In the end however, in order to do what I had to do for those who were living, I had to make the choice. While I can wish that no one would ever be put in that situation, the reality is that daily, people are. I'm a smart woman. But I REALLY don't see me - or anyone here - being capable enough to make decisions for someone else - especially when it comes to the trauma of children already on this earth.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 10/8/2007 12:44:26 AM >

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RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 12:41:32 AM   
givemyall


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive
And, yes, technically, a baby can be concieved in a petri dish.  I don't think it can be brought to gestation outside the human body, though.

MSS


Would be great thought wouldn't it, pop it in an old shoe box and stick it on a shelf until term, then just lift the lid off at 9 months.  I bet most of us would want to lift the lid and take a peep every so often..... I wonder if we were able to do that, whether it would be so easy to chuck the contents into the bin along the way.

Although I dont agree with late termination unless its for health reasons etc, I also dont agree with abortion as a type of contraception but, im also not arrogant enough to realise that there isn't a middle ground and for those people that have to make that choice, its not an easy decision and they can end up regretting it all their life. 

......but no, I dont think banning abortion is a good idea.

< Message edited by givemyall -- 10/8/2007 12:42:25 AM >

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RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 12:44:58 AM   
MySweetSubmssive


Posts: 1139
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From: Lehigh Valley, PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: givemyall

Would be great thought wouldn't it, pop it in an old shoe box and stick it on a shelf until term, then just lift the lid off at 9 months.  




Hell, no, sexy thing!  Besides my incurable grammar fetish, I really do get hot for making and having babies.  I love pregnancy, pregnant ladies and kiddos.  Guess it was good that I used to be a midwife!

MSS

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"Oh, James, you're such a cunning linguist."

--Miss Moneypenny

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RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 12:46:18 AM   
julietsierra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: givemyall

Would be great thought wouldn't it, pop it in an old shoe box and stick it on a shelf until term, then just lift the lid off at 9 months.  I bet most of us would want to lift the lid and take a peep every so often.....


Gives new meaning to those little labels "Don't open till X-Mas" doesn't it?

juliet

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RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 1:06:00 AM   
unownedkitty


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even having one on medical advice can be wrong to a friend i know was told that her baby had half the brain missing and would not even live to be born so she choose to have the abortion at 23 weeks she layed on the bed the baby was scanned and the heartbeat heard while they pushed a needle through the mothers belly and into the baby's heart and injected something in the heart to stop it ( i am sure that baby felt that needle go through its body and into the heart) then 2 days later she gave birth she then had a post mortem on the baby which found out that the scan was wrong the damage was no where near as servear as they had told her her baby would have lived. my friend has never forgiven herself and 3 years on she still goes to her baby's grave every other day.

hard choices for everyone to make and you can never be sure if its the right choice

i got told at 20 weeks my baby had a heart condition which she would need op as soon as she was born but they also told me abortion is the best for these babies as not many live through the op i said no i will give my baby a chance at 22 weeks i went in to prem labour and my baby dies after 3 hours i thought she would live 100% and i have thought if i knew what would happen would i have had the abortion to save the pain and heartache everyone went through after

you never know what is the right choice to make but if the choice was not there maybe the suffering would be halved?

(in reply to julietsierra)
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RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:26:03 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: unownedkitty

even having one on medical advice can be wrong to a friend i know was told that her baby had half the brain missing and would not even live to be born so she choose to have the abortion at 23 weeks she layed on the bed the baby was scanned and the heartbeat heard while they pushed a needle through the mothers belly and into the baby's heart and injected something in the heart to stop it ( i am sure that baby felt that needle go through its body and into the heart) then 2 days later she gave birth she then had a post mortem on the baby which found out that the scan was wrong the damage was no where near as servear as they had told her her baby would have lived. my friend has never forgiven herself and 3 years on she still goes to her baby's grave every other day.

hard choices for everyone to make and you can never be sure if its the right choice

i got told at 20 weeks my baby had a heart condition which she would need op as soon as she was born but they also told me abortion is the best for these babies as not many live through the op i said no i will give my baby a chance at 22 weeks i went in to prem labour and my baby dies after 3 hours i thought she would live 100% and i have thought if i knew what would happen would i have had the abortion to save the pain and heartache everyone went through after

you never know what is the right choice to make but if the choice was not there maybe the suffering would be halved?


I'm going to say something really hard here unownedkitty. I'm not saying this to be callous or unfeeling in any way.

Very simply: Your child, your pain. Whether that child is born and dies, whether you choose to abort or whether a child is born with disabilities and you have to mourn the death of the dream child while still caring for the child that remains. Your child. Your pain.

You can spend the rest of your life mourning the death of a child that was not meant to be in this world except for the short time that it was, or you can love and adore the child you have.

I hate to get melodramatic here, but there's a quote from one of those mini-series shows that I held on to while doing my share of mourning. "That boy's time was now. Some people live long lives. Some people live short lives. This is what was meant to be for that boy." And unownedkitty, like it or not, crying and casting blame (maybe the pain would be less if abortion were not available), and all the other techniques you're going through to ease your pain do not change what is.

In the words of my Master: "It is what it is."
And in the words of someone - maybe it was a dream? that I heard while mourning a miscarriage in the middle of the night: "I didn't do this to you. I did it for you."

Unownedkitty, unless you are whatever your version of an ultimate power there is, you have no idea beyond that death of what was supposed to be other than what happened. And if possible, hold on to "I didn't do this to you. I did it for you."

Your child was taken from you. That child died. And you just don't and CAN'T know the reason. For now, "This didn't happen to you. It happened for you - even though what you feel right now is pain."
After that, how  you handle that pain is up to you.

To get back to the topic as far as how it relates to this, I love children. I spend the majority of my time with children - always have. Always will. So, making a choice to abort was not easy. It wasn't painless and there were ramifications to it. But in a world of no choices, I made the one that made the most sense. If that were taken away - if in addition to the choices I didn't have at home, I further had no choice in terms of what was happening due to a pregnancy I didn't want, didn't choose and couldn't care for as well as couldn't choose adoption, That would have been far far worse than the choices I did have to make.

In the end, it is what it is. It's not, as one person said "what's done is done." because that would imply that the choice I made was a mistake. It wasn't. It wasn't wrong. It simply was what it was.

Just as the death of your child was what it was. In the end, you're going to have to come to the same conclusion I did - regardless of the differences in our circumstances.

Mourn or live.

Your choice.

I chose to live.

I hope you'll do the same.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 10/8/2007 3:28:17 AM >

(in reply to unownedkitty)
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