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GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 6:32:30 PM)
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ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive
I'd like to take this conversation in a different direction if people are amenable. One of the things I am most interested in in this discussion is to understand someone who has a very different point of view that I do. I find that people on each side tend to take polarized stances to ... to buttress themself against the opposing opinions(?). So that no doubts can arise about the rightness of our own opinion? And when we do this, the ambiguity and the gray area gets erased, and something is lost. I'm not interested in changing the viewpoint of someone who holds the other opinion -- that is not my purpose here. Some of our language in this conversation has made people more intrenched in their positions rather than increasing understanding. I am intereted in putting down the intellectual weapons to attempt to know the other person's viewpoint better, with curiosity and compassion.
Alright, I'll give it a shot.
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For example, I believe that abortions should be availble to women, and that it should be her choice in any term of pregnancy. This is my stance because I fear that if we put a limit on some abortions that the political right will use this as a wedge to then roll back the choice to have other, earlier abortions. I do think that there is an aliveness to a fertilized egg. I know that there's a heart beating at 6 weeks, and there is a recognizable body. My questions for myself is "When does this become a human, a person?" That has something to do with viability (21-24 weeks), but it also has to do with a more perplexing question, "When does the soul enter into the body?" And this is a hard one to get at. So it's all life for me, just somewhere along the line the quality of it (I won't say the value) changes.
And I do not. Human conception is human life. Admittedly this is My opinion. But it stands, and it is not going to change. A woman's uterus is the miraculous environment that allows life to grow to independant viability. Just because it is not independantly (outside of the womb) viable on its own from day one, does not mean it is not human life. And I consider that precious in any form. My opinion also is that the soul is already present from the moment of conception. But I believe in God and a divine plan, and this is My fervent opinion and it will not change. In most instances, by the time a woman realizes she is pregnant, the heart has already started beating. The brain is already developing. There is already scientific evidence that nerves are forming and pain can be felt. *Shrug* I can't get around it.
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Earlier today I was talking to friend who really hates abortion. He says that pro-choice people can come across as very cold-hearted. This seemed ironic to me as usually left-wing people are pejoratively referred to as "bleeding hearts." It's a liability! And in this instance, we are cold.
Okay,...here I go! *Smile* I see "bleeding hearts" as those who need to show compassion in selfish ways. Maybe that is wrong,. and I am sure I will get completely slammed, but I see this as guilt and selfishness. It is a way to make the person feel better about themselves. Very few people actually do good deeds without needing to talk about them, push others into doing the same and standing on some sort of soap box. True compassion happens quietly. The people who will march and scream about a woman's right to choose are, often, the same people who will be holding the cande light vigil at the serial murderer's execution. I read earlier in this thread that those who are pro-life are often pro-capital punishment, so I wanted to point out that it works both ways. Yes, I do consider it "cold" in a sense, because what I really see in the justification for abortion is a selfishness and an excuse to avoid the responsiiblity and the accountability for a previous decision. Now I want to make clear that as I read this thread I was alternately nauseated, sad, angry, frustrated and even had a few tears. But even the heart-rending stories (and they were heartrending for Me) still had other options. I do not call women who elect to have abortions murderers. But I see too much ignoring of the plain fact that it is legalized killing. And I think that is what shocks Me more than anything else about this sensitive subject. It is certainly what can cause Me to perceive these decisions as "cold". Cold might even be too harsh...but it is, as statistics show, too easily justified. It is selfish, in most instances. It is much easier to terminate an unwanted pregnacy (legally) than it is to make a decision to end your unborn child's life.
In the case of rape and incest, this is a small (1%?...) percentage of what is happening every day, there is the option of the morning after pill. As said also, unfortunately, the case of the rape or the incest never goes away. The results (9 months?) can be given up for adoption if pregnancy does occur. My heart breaks for these instances. It is horrible. For those that say that going through a pregnancy exacerbates the mental anguish...yes, I am sure it does. In the olden days (ha-ha) therapeutic abortions were available. They can remain available in these instances. And in answer to the argument that children are being born to crack addicted, uncaring and incapable mothers....yup they are! And they will continue to be! And those mothers can be prosecuted for using drugs and endangering the fetus during pregnancy. Why is it that they can be held accountable for using drugs during pregnancy, but it is okay if they become pregnant and then get a free abortion with My tax dollars? See? Better to legally kill the unborn child than subject it to the horrors of drug addiction in the womb? So the baby is alive and important and has rights in that case? This sort of reasoning makes no sense to Me!
Another argument is the adoption system. Well, how did we get into such a damn mess anyway? Parents who refuse to accept responsibility, who use drugs, abandon their children, and then they are put into a foster care system wherein it becomes almost impossible to legally sever the natural parent's rights and give them to a family who desperately wants to have children and can't do so on their own. Instead we have a society full of people who are getting ripped off by lawyers and "pregnant" single woman who aren't pregnant aat all, and there is never any baby. Or they are adopting children (often illegal adoptions) for thousands and thousands of dollars from foreign countries. In the meantime our own social system is breaking under the expense of foster care, too often with lousy foster parents who are just in it for the money. The result of all this mess is that those regular (not wealthy) people who just want to adopt a child can't, because there aren't any to adopt in our own country, or they can't afford to foot the bill to adopt from a foreign country or through a "private" agency. *Sigh*
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Alan told me that he makes decisions on this issue with his heart. I thought, "My god, you think I don't!?!" With abortion, and the value of life, quality of life is important. This issue gets brushed aside as "convenience," but having an abortion because you are looking at the quality of life that you can offer a child seems very heart-driven. It's very sane. And it's very ... bare-bones unromantic. I see a newly conceived person/fetus/being as a potential. I don't see it as the same as a person. And sometimes you feel it is necessary to say no to that. Is it a loss? For me, yes. However, I don't think we only have one shot at life. I think that we have experiences to learn from them. Call it karma, if you will. And so, in very simplified terms, I see an abortion not as murder, but as a delayed choice.
This speaks to My opinion that it is too easy to justify. If it is legal, then it must be alright. Well, as was pointed out, slavery was legal once upon a time...but now it is seen as immoral. I consider a choice to electively abort to be an immoral decision. If someone I knew was trying to make the choice I would do My best to offer every alternative and support I could to prevent it. I would not drive her to the clinic. I would hold her and cry with her afterward. I would not judge or refuse to be her friend. But it would break My heart when there are so many other options. It is not a delayed choice. The choice was already made when the sexual act occurred. It is a second choice to make your life more convenient, because there is a quick and easy fix for the "problem". And this "opinion" of Mine is borne out every time I read that a woman should not have to go through the 9 months of inconvenience if she has the right to choose to end it. For Me that is one of the lousiest arguments I ever reead for a right to abort. And I see it over and over and over....
I would also like to address the comments regarding special needs or "imperfect" babies. Just because we have a way of finding out does not mean that we should now have the choice of terminating the pregnancy with the justification that it speaks to the child's quality of life. We are, once again speaking to the quality of our own lives. That child might enrich your life in ways that you never dreamed possible. If you want to refer to "karma", then it is not up to you to decide how that "karma" comes back to you. Perhaps there is a reason! What is next? Not a boy?...abort (yes, there are cases of this, and nothing can be done to stop it). It is a never ending spiral of medical knowledge which then gives us choices to be more and more selective. Eugenics anyone?
I do not believe in taking things medically to the nth degree. I believe in letting "nature" or "God", if you prefer, take it's course. This does not mean that you ignore appendicitis. We are fortunate in this day to have medical knowledge. But it also does not mean that we allow the medical profession to play God. For some reason they seem to feel it is a challenge to keep people alive, at any cost and in any way possible. Or it is helpful to society to find bio-markers which will improve the quality of life for the general population. So we are either aborting the imperfect or inconvenient babies with the excuse that it will be too difficult for them (when in reality it is just a selfish move on our own part)This, in turn, has infected the people, and we all immediately look for anything that will defy that natural course of events. The next step is weeding out all the undesireable genetic traits by killing off or sterilizing anyone who might create a genetically undesireable child. We are all so damned skewed in our views anymore!
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I hope this has not seemed like utter blather. I just wanted to offer my point of view in a less guarded way. I'd love to hear similarly from people who identify as pro-life about why they think and feel the way they do, and where they feel conflicted or ambigous about their stance.
Thank you,
MSS
I often hear thar "the rights of some people end when they infringe upon the rights of others." (Hence, I cannot light up a cigarette anytime and anywhere I damn well please) To My mind, the only way one can justify abortion is by standing on the principle that it is not life. Therefore they are not infringing on another's right to life. It doesn't work for Me, and I am not conflicted or ambiguous on any of this.
In the end, I do not agree that the "government (nanny state) should be legislating any of this. It should not be legal or illegal. Because making it "legal" gives permission. And that is all most people need to justify anything, moral or not. It is a personal choice. Just don't use My tax dollars to support what I feel is an immoral decision, and keep it personal. I have a real problem with that. Somehow I feel like that is infringing on My rights.
I am more concerned over the fact that society in general does not consider this to be any big deal. I would rather see it become the exception that is available but only used with discretion and sadness in extreme cases, rather than the rule, because it is no big deal.
And, no matter what people try to say, I do see the general attitude of "no big deal". That's would be the nauseating part.
And now I have blathered on for a whole book here. To those of you who got bored, I apologize.
Thank you!
GDG
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