RE: Abortion (Full Version)

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MySweetSubmssive -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 8:43:43 PM)

I'd like to take this conversation in a different direction if people are amenable.  One of the things I am most interested in in this discussion is to understand someone who has a very different point of view that I do.  I find that people on each side tend to take polarized stances to ... to buttress themself against the opposing opinions(?).  So that no doubts can arise about the rightness of our own opinion?  And when we do this, the ambiguity and the gray area gets erased, and something is lost.  I'm not interested in changing the viewpoint of someone who holds the other opinion -- that is not my purpose here.  Some of our language in this conversation has made people more intrenched in their positions rather than increasing understanding.  I am intereted in putting down the intellectual weapons to attempt to know the other person's viewpoint better, with curiosity and compassion.

For example, I believe that abortions should be availble to women, and that it should be her choice in any term of pregnancy.  This is my stance because I fear that if we put a limit on some abortions that the political right will use this as a wedge to then roll back the choice to have other, earlier abortions.  I do think that there is an aliveness to a fertilized egg.  I know that there's a heart beating at 6 weeks, and there is a recognizable body.  My questions for myself is "When does this become a human, a person?"  That has something to do with viability (21-24 weeks), but it also has to do with a more perplexing question, "When does the soul enter into the body?"  And this is a hard one to get at.  So it's all life for me, just somewhere along the line the quality of it (I won't say the value) changes.

Earlier today I was talking to friend who really hates abortion.  He says that pro-choice people can come across as very cold-hearted.  This seemed ironic to me as usually left-wing people are pejoratively referred to as "bleeding hearts."  It's a liability!  And in this instance, we are cold. 

Alan told me that he makes decisions on this issue with his heart.  I thought, "My god, you think I don't!?!"  With abortion, and the value of life, quality of life is important.  This issue gets brushed aside as "convenience," but having an abortion because you are looking at the quality of life that you can offer a child seems very heart-driven.  It's very sane.  And it's very ... bare-bones unromantic.  I see a newly conceived person/fetus/being as a potential.  I don't see it as the same as a person.  And sometimes you feel it is necessary to say no to that.  Is it a loss?  For me, yes.  However, I don't think we only have one shot at life.  I think that we have experiences to learn from them.  Call it karma, if you will.  And so, in very simplified terms, I see an abortion not as murder, but as a delayed choice. 

I hope this has not seemed like utter blather.  I just wanted to offer my point of view in a less guarded way.  I'd love to hear similarly from people who identify as pro-life about why they think and feel the way they do, and where they feel conflicted or ambigous about their stance.

Thank you,
MSS





dcnovice -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 8:49:39 PM)

quote:

My questions for myself is "When does this become a human, a person?"  That has something to do with viability (21-24 weeks), but it also has to do with a more perplexing question, "When does the soul enter into the body?"  And this is a hard one to get at. 


That's the core question for me too. I don't have an easy answer, alas.




unownedkitty -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 12:44:17 AM)

i think that most people using this thread is only here to row and stuff as i have noticed people like myself have put comments and question related to the topic and they have been ignored for people to choose to row and argue instead  i think its a shame and really does show the people who like to fight rather than the people who like to debate like adults  




SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 1:46:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

do not


lmfaoooooo

do too!!!




eyesopened -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 2:06:35 AM)

i agree with the issue is most certainly an emotional one.  There are no easy answers.  When does the zygote become a human being?  The answer for me (and i can only speak for me) is when the fetus is capable of independent life.  i have looked into this issue, i don't have the answer.  i look back in history and see how people deal with spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) and note that most people do not hold a funeral for the miscarriage.  i could be very wrong about this but i don't think even the Catholic Church places a miscarriage in Limbo with the non-baptised infants.  Are we simply more enlightened now? 

My personal opinion is that as a society we should be more passionate about seeing to the care of the children who are born.  The outrageous number of abused and neglected children deserve more of our passionate protection than the abortion issue, in my opinion.




chellekitty -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 5:35:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Then don't ask for tolerance - you must be prepared to take as well as you give.



i didn't ask for tolerance, i asked for logic...and reason...but i'll conceede...i may be being an itellectual masochist to expect that on these boards...




chellekitty -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 5:47:45 AM)

quality of life is an interesting concept...

my older brother has downs syndrome....he will never be independent...he is 30 years old and has never been able to stay on his own for more than 10 minutes...and even then you come back and you don't know if he's just watched tv while you ran down to the gas station or if he's cut his hair or given all his DVD's to the neighbor's kid or something "crazy" like that...cause thats what he does...

and theres me...facing a very fucking harsh reality that i will proably never hold a regular job where i have to report to someone on a regular basis...i tried...i've tried over and over and over...and i can't even take 2 fucking classes where my teachers work with me so fucking much, i hate it...i have to drop my classes again....glad i have an appt to interview a therapist today or ya'll would be getting a whole bunch of shit...but...by societal standards...i have no "quality of life"....between my mental health and my diabetes and my seizures i will never be able to support myself and i will never be able to live on my own...

i don't know about my little brother yet...he's doing better than i was at that age...so far...but he's only 17....

should my mother have aborted me and my older brother...the amniotic fluid in the first two pregnancies showed up abnormal....she could have...they asked her if she wanted to....she couldn't, because of her morals...and thank God for that....cause i wouldn't be here today bugging the shit out of you if it wasn't for that...




MySweetSubmssive -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 5:55:08 AM)

I want to make it clear that it's "the quality of life you can offer a child" that I meant, specifically if I have few emotional/financial resources, I may not be able to take care of myself, let alone someone else.  I've certainly been there during periods of my life.

As to having a child with disabilities, I am afraid of that possibility (my own limitation), but I don't see it as a reason to have an abortion for myself.

MSS




sojourn138 -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 6:07:19 AM)

When it comes to a pour quality of life- in as much as that is determined by economic or emotional resources in the hands of the potential parent(s)- you need simply ask a fully grown adult who was without such support a simple question:  "Would you have preferred to have never been born rather than grow up amidst economic and/or emotional poverty?"  In only a very, very few and extreme cases would that adult respond "I wish I had never been born." 

This isn't to say that an argument can't be made for an abortion on those counts only that it is inappropriate to ever say that it was in the child's best interest.  If you are aborting a child because you believe you are acting in the child's best interests because of the above reasons it can delusional.  It is more likely because a person does wish to suffer the guilt of bringing a child into that situation- rather than an altruistic belief in the child's welfare.

Abortion is about the mother- not the child.  At what point does a fully conscious person get to decide when it would be better for a child to never be born at all?




SugarMyChurro -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 6:42:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Haven't I seen you make judgements in other topics, based upon your own morals?


Maybe on a macro, society-wide level. On the micro, individual level - not so much.

I am for personal freedom and as such I don't really go around telling others how to behave, what to do with their bodies, what to do in their bedrooms, in relation to their people, how to believe spiritually, etc. The people that do the kind of moralizing intended to control other individuals are of a wholly different political persuasion to myself. I believe in the right to choose for myself and I respect that right for others also.

I oppose the invasion and occupation of Iraq in order to favor the economic interests of war and oil profiteers. Does it mean I am hampering the individual "war rights" of warmongers? Maybe...I guess I feel that they can take themselves, their guns, and their own privatized armies and fight a war on their own dime if they want to. I don't see how this "Iraq situation" is in the interest of the average American.

I do support Universal Healthcare without any middlemen or profit motive. Does that mean I support a policy that digs into someone else's pockets to benefit others? Sure, maybe...or maybe I just support a policy that would place us - the U.S. - on labor and economic parity with the other nations of the western world. Call me crazy...

I don't really know what else you could have meant.





chellekitty -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 6:45:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sojourn138
Abortion is about the mother- not the child.  At what point does a fully conscious person get to decide when it would be better for a child to never be born at all?


qft...




MySweetSubmssive -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 6:51:38 AM)

This is not a simple question.  The potential person who might have grown up into a life with  few resources isn't there to make a choice.  However, I think you can also ask an adult who made that decision. This isn't an abstract question.  Bringing a child into the world when you think you don't have the wherewithall to care for them is a concrete choice.  Once they are here, you don't get to take the decision back. 

I have an imperfect analogy.  A friend of mine used to do a lot of backpacking way, way out in the wild.  He was talking to me one day about the trouble people could compound for themselves in emergencies.  He said that when you and the other hikers are in a dangerous situation (for example, on thin, cracking ice), you have to make sure that you are safe first.  I protested.  I thought this was selfish and ghastly.  He pointed out that if you do not get yourself out of danger first, you can't help anyone else.  If I am in a place in my life where I barely have the resources in my life to take care of myself, it can be dangerous to bring someone else into the equation.  This is something that Maslow noted in his hierarchy of needs.

I think your question about when a person gets to decide when someone decides not to bring a child into the world is rhetorical -- or we wouldn't be having this conversation.  Clearly, the answer is each time a woman gets pregnant. What motivated you to ask this question?  I think -- in a Buddhist sense -- many, many people are not fully conscious.  I would shift this question a different way.  If people were fully conscious, they would make a choice to get pregnant or not.

MSS




chellekitty -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 7:06:28 AM)

but instinctually...preservation of the line and preservation of the species overrides self preservation...when you take the human mind out of it....look at mother animals that starve and die so that their young may live...is it more human to live? or more humane to die so that our young may live? not my question to answer for you, and perhaps my wording was biased for my answer...ok so it definately was...but this is not the first time i have discussed the subject either...
take care...
chelle




MySweetSubmssive -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 7:23:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

but instinctually...preservation of the line and preservation of the species overrides self preservation...
chelle



No, it doesn't.  This is not the case.

MSS




chellekitty -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 9:26:39 AM)

ok..i was in a hurry this morning when i wrote that (i was trying to reply before leaving for an appointment) and i left out some quantifiers...it should have read "instinctually...preservation of the line and preservation of the species more often than not, in mammals, overrides self preservation..."




SDFemDom4cuck -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 10:05:26 AM)

So far I've stayed out of this one and simply lurked. I actually am even hesitant to enjoin the topic even now. Just to play devils advocate however...

while I agree with what you say regarding
quote:

If people were fully conscious, they would make a choice to get pregnant or not.
Unfortunately there are situations where it isn't a given choice one is in a position to make. Example being a very amazing friend of mine that became pregnant due to rape. What then would be the choice in that situation?




Aswad -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 12:40:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sojourn138

In only a very, very few and extreme cases would that adult respond "I wish I had never been born."


A few percent of the adult population are incapable of responding at all. Some because they are incapable of understanding the question, others because they are incapable of formulating a reply, others because they lack the capacity for thought. I saw one poster say that abortions should be allowed after brain activity commences (the legal standard of life), with the wording "at any stage"... by extension, these adults could be "aborted."

For that matter, there have been times in my life where I'd have replied thus, and meant it.

It's clear that elective abortion is killing, but when does it become murder?
That's the first stage in determining when murder should be legal killing instead.
Which is what the debate about abortion sweeps under the rug all too often, really.

I have a stance that roughly resembles "pro-choice".
But I don't pretend it's not about legally sanctioned killing.
And I would tend to extend the same arguments postpartum.
(Other way around, really.)

quote:


Abortion is about the mother- not the child.


Clearly.

Not the child, not the father, only the mother. Makes me wonder how come people see that as good for equality and women's rights. Few things do as much to make men look back to the days when women didn't have modern rights as the issues regarding abortion, parental rights (custody), and so forth. And me, personally, I'd prefer for people to stand on their own merits, rather than on their gender, so I'd not like a backlash there.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 1:09:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

Once they are here, you don't get to take the decision back.


More like the other way around.
Once they're dead, you don't get to bring them back.
But you can kill them any time, even after they've been born, it's just not legal.
Perhaps we should have some sort of "try before you let live" option to resolve that problem.

Kind of like reserving the right to abort at some later point in time.

quote:


If people were fully conscious, they would make a choice to get pregnant or not.


It's not exactly hard to make people choose, rather than defaulting.
It just happens to be unpopular, as people prefer to default.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 1:21:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck

Unfortunately there are situations where it isn't a given choice one is in a position to make.


Of course, sometimes people deprive others of choices, and that's part of the argument for allowing abortions, although there are other ways to resolve that problem. Usually, though, people have a choice to take additional measures to reduce the likelyhood of such events, while it's very non-PC to say so. Risk management does not mean that one justifies what people do, just that one recognizes that shit happens and tries to avoid it.

And, more often than not, the child is conceived through entirely consensual means, and that's usually the bit people object the hardest to. It's one thing to suggest that abortions can be carried out for "real" reasons, and another to suggest that it should be allowed to be an afterthought or whim to one of the parties just because one of the bodies involved is necessary to host the embryo for a time. I know one too many who use it as a form of contraceptive.

I'm all for allowing abortions as a matter of self-defense. But if we go beyond that, it's a minefield.

Health,
al-Aswad.




laurell3 -> RE: Abortion (10/9/2007 4:17:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

quality of life is an interesting concept...

my older brother has downs syndrome....he will never be independent...he is 30 years old and has never been able to stay on his own for more than 10 minutes...and even then you come back and you don't know if he's just watched tv while you ran down to the gas station or if he's cut his hair or given all his DVD's to the neighbor's kid or something "crazy" like that...cause thats what he does...

and theres me...facing a very fucking harsh reality that i will proably never hold a regular job where i have to report to someone on a regular basis...i tried...i've tried over and over and over...and i can't even take 2 fucking classes where my teachers work with me so fucking much, i hate it...i have to drop my classes again....glad i have an appt to interview a therapist today or ya'll would be getting a whole bunch of shit...but...by societal standards...i have no "quality of life"....between my mental health and my diabetes and my seizures i will never be able to support myself and i will never be able to live on my own...

i don't know about my little brother yet...he's doing better than i was at that age...so far...but he's only 17....

should my mother have aborted me and my older brother...the amniotic fluid in the first two pregnancies showed up abnormal....she could have...they asked her if she wanted to....she couldn't, because of her morals...and thank God for that....cause i wouldn't be here today bugging the shit out of you if it wasn't for that...


Thank god indeed chelle, the world would definitely be a much less interesting place without you in it, and thank you for sharing. 

However, you were fortunate to have someone to care for you and sadly for many that is not the case and the "system" can often make things worse rather than better.   My quality of life position isn't so much that any individual does not have the right to life, they do and all are special, unique and worthwhile.  It's that the system is so overworked and inadequate to deal with all the social problems we have as it is, eliminating abortion would only make it worse.

And for those of you that are pro-life but would allow exceptions for rape and incest or severe medical issues, I would ask this...who decides?  Most rapes aren't prosecuted because they are very difficult cases.  Do we make a recent rape or incest victim prove she was raped in order to get an abortion?  How does she do that? Who decides if it's good enough?  Anyone can find some hack doctor to give them a letter saying anything if they pay for it.  Who sifts through that mess? The clinic?  I would hope not.  The "system"...let's not add to that already overburdened mess.

The problem is, much like many social issues, what is the better solution and what are the effects of the decision made today?  Domiguy had a tongue in cheek example that illustrates this point rather well.  The law must be black and white constitutionally, it must give clear notice of what behaviors are legal and illegal.  How do we make such a heated emotional issue about very real hardship and trauma black and white?  What is the better outcome?
l




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