RE: Do we romanticize slavery?

RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 3:23:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice Do our easy use of the word slave, our iconization of slave collars, and our interest (from whatever angle) in dominance and submission blind us to the true horrors of slavery? Are we forgetting that consensual slavery is the exception rather than the rule? Does anyone else feel discomfort at sharing language and symbols with one of the great evils of human history? This is precisely why I refuse to label myself as a slave. I saw the faces of the 12 years old girls that had been smuggled over the border and forced into prostitution on a news story. Matter of fact, they had been found just a couple of miles from where I used to live. By calling myself a slave, I feel I'm belittling what they've been through. Good point, Bobbi. Thanks!

dcnovice -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 3:27:32 PM)
quote: I think most people on earth would agree that nonconsensual slavery such as that throughout history is wrong, bad, or any other negative term. I would hope so. That's why I was shocked to see so many votes on the Gorean thread for nonconsensual slavery. That made me wonder if folks really grasped just how horrific nonconsensual slavery is.

dcnovice -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 3:30:54 PM)
quote: Comparing the two uses of "slave" is like comparing apples and oranges. Good point, which is why we use different words for apples and oranges. That makes me wonder if consensual, erotic submission ("slavery") warrants a different term from nonconsensual, brutal slavery. Does using the same term--"slave"--for both situations blur or dilute the word's meaning?

sambamanslilgirl -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 3:31:10 PM)
you may romanticize slavery for all i care however do not include me as part of the "we" because i don't romanticize it. as a long descendent of slaves from North Carolina, i find nothing romantic about slavery.

MadRabbit -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 3:33:48 PM)
I would be more worried about the romanticizing and eroticizing of... murder, rape, kidnapping, choking, whipping, beating, punching, kicking, biting, paddling, torturing, slapping, cutting, dungeons, torture devices, humiliation, sadism, masochism, painful bondage, crying, dirty words, drinking of bodily fluids, degradation, sodomization, ponys, dogs, cats, turtles, young ages, old ages, and anal fisting.... before I started to worry about the romanticization and eroticization of slavery. BDSM isnt exactly fluffly bunny rabbits and snuggly kittens with gentle kisses and missionary style sex on down pillows with the lights off and Al Green playing in the background. Spin the wheel and take your pick and sure enough...some group out there will be offended by the eroticizing of one of the above.

dcnovice -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 3:38:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty quote: Looking at a few slavery-related threads, I came across some interesting observations: Slavery might not seem so bad if we did it Roman style rather than American style. Nature approves of slavery. It's a shame we can't have legal ownership of another person here in the U.S. We might be able to update the institution of slavery to make it work for modern times. So what you are saying is that you WANT oppression, and you want people to be treated like objects, humuliated and dehuminized?! The Romans use to pit slaves against eachother and they would fight to the death, they would be taken from their families; they could also murder your children if you did not obey. Yep, lets go back to THAT. No, I emphatically do not want to return to or continue nonconsensual slavery in any form. The observations I cited were other people's prespectives that I'd gleaned from looking at threads--and, to be honest, been stunned by. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough. They were paraphrases, which is why I didn't put them in quotes.

dcnovice -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 3:47:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kirii Hello dcnovice I think what you failed to recognize from the thread on the Gorean boards was that most of those who stated with clarity that they do believe in non-consensual slavery do so from the perspective that they were born this way; not a given a choice on who or what they are; therefore they were not given a choice about whether or not to be a slave; only to embrace or deny something that was ‘THEM’. Hello, Kirrii. In my first post on the Gorean thread, I specifically asked whether "nonconsenusal slavery" included real-life slavery as practiced on Earth. The OP replied that slavery was slavery, the ownership of another person. He thoughtfully added that this was a simple concept. That led to my confusion as to whether the poll respondents were saying they believed in nonconsensual slavery for themselves (which seems to be what you're saying they believed) or as a social arrangement.

MadRabbit -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 3:54:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: ORIGINAL: kirii Hello dcnovice I think what you failed to recognize from the thread on the Gorean boards was that most of those who stated with clarity that they do believe in non-consensual slavery do so from the perspective that they were born this way; not a given a choice on who or what they are; therefore they were not given a choice about whether or not to be a slave; only to embrace or deny something that was ‘THEM’. Hello, Kirrii. In my first post on the Gorean thread, I specifically asked whether "nonconsenusal slavery" included real-life slavery as practiced on Earth. The OP replied that slavery was slavery, the ownership of another person. He thoughtfully added that this was a simple concept. That led to my confusion as to whether the poll respondents were saying they believed in nonconsensual slavery for themselves (which seems to be what you're saying they believed) or as a social arrangement. I personally wont consider the Gorean viewpoints expressed in that thread to fall in the scope of having anything to do with BDSM and erotic slavery. People draw a line in the sand between Gorean philosophy and BDSM for some good reasons. This is one of them. On a side note, if slavery is slavery, then I beleive the people expressing that viewpoint and the viewpoint of non consentual slavery in a society being a good idea should be the first ones to be made slaves when the reform happens.

IrishMist -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 3:55:44 PM)
Do we romaticize slavery? I don't think so. As someone already mentioned, slavery ( the way we identify with it here and now ) is more about relationships. It's the relationship that is romantic, not the end result.

catize -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 4:30:05 PM)
I don’t believe that it is only BDSM folk who romanticize concepts or parts of history that were ugly at the time. On film and in books, the ‘wild’ west of the US conveniently overlook the fact that it was a deliberate act of genocide to eradicate the Native American people; (who were also enslaved). Ever been to a Civil War re-enactment? Unlike the reality, the ‘dead’ and ‘wounded’ get up and walk away from the battle field, but it is great entertainment for the crowds who come to watch. The concept of marrying for love and living ‘happily ever after’ is fairly new. In the past it was a means to blend families for political and or financial reasons. Mates were chosen to enhance a power base and love had nothing to do with it. Marriage for women was a form of slavery in itself. So what if we have taken a word from history and put our own spin on it? We are not alone in that. That was then, this is now. Is it not a wondrous thing to have the choice to live the way we want in a relationship that fulfills us, and find happiness in a construct which, as Bita said, empowers us?

catize -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 4:40:49 PM)
quote: On a side note, if slavery is slavery, then I beleive the people expressing that viewpoint and the viewpoint of non consentual slavery in a society being a good idea should be the first ones to be made slaves when the reform happens. And brand their chests with the words: “I voted for non-consensual slavery.”

leatherette -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 4:41:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit I would be more worried about the romanticizing and eroticizing of... *murder, rape, kidnapping, choking, whipping, beating, punching, kicking, biting, paddling, torturing, slapping, cutting, dungeons, torture devices, humiliation, sadism, masochism, painful bondage, crying, dirty words, drinking of bodily fluids, degradation, sodomization, ponys, dogs, cats, turtles, young ages, old ages, and anal fisting.... before I started to worry about the romanticization and eroticization of slavery. BDSM isnt exactly fluffly bunny rabbits and snuggly kittens with gentle kisses and missionary style sex on down pillows with the lights off and Al Green playing in the background. Spin the wheel and take your pick and sure enough...some group out there will be offended by the eroticizing of one of the above. But MadRabbit - some of the most romantic moments of my life involved some of ---- ** an array of column A with a little column B on the side! [;)] ..i am serious on this! isn't this a crazy discussion? funny thing is - i don't think we are all in such disagreement. Its just labels..words.. and yes..words do evolve. we get it... shame isn't concrete either, right? It's a construct.

slaveluci -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 5:00:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Comparing the two uses of "slave" is like comparing apples and oranges. Good point, which is why we use different words for apples and oranges. That makes me wonder if consensual, erotic submission ("slavery") warrants a different term from nonconsensual, brutal slavery. Does using the same term--"slave"--for both situations blur or dilute the word's meaning? For me it doesn't because I am very aware of the absolute differences. I do see your point. I guess it's just so natural for me to understand the huge difference that I just expect everyone to realize it. Some don't and find it offensive. That's fine for them. I just hate the idea of others telling me to feel wrong or ashamed because of it because I absolutely know that what I am is not a slave in the sense that non-consensual slaves are. Good thread topic, DC...........luci

slaveluci -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 5:01:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit I would be more worried about the romanticizing and eroticizing of... murder, rape, kidnapping, choking, whipping, beating, punching, kicking, biting, paddling, torturing, slapping, cutting, dungeons, torture devices, humiliation, sadism, masochism, painful bondage, crying, dirty words, drinking of bodily fluids, degradation, sodomization, ponys, dogs, cats, turtles, young ages, old ages, and anal fisting.... before I started to worry about the romanticization and eroticization of slavery. BDSM isnt exactly fluffly bunny rabbits and snuggly kittens with gentle kisses and missionary style sex on down pillows with the lights off and Al Green playing in the background. Spin the wheel and take your pick and sure enough...some group out there will be offended by the eroticizing of one of the above. Wise and beautifully stated, as always, MadRabbit[:)]................luci

Aswad -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 5:28:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nyrisa Then the plight of women in male dominated societies, such as the Middle East, left me wondering what these women, who had no choices and have no recourse, would tell us about this lifestyle "for real". In all fairness, those societies have nothing to do with what was discussed on that thread. The system in the Middle East caters to weak men who band together to opress women systematically because they are unable to deal with them in any reasonable way on a personal level, or any way at all, really. It's simply contemptible and lessens the men as much as it lessens the women. Not to mention the difference in values and so forth... Health, al-Aswad.

dcnovice -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 5:28:36 PM)
quote: I don’t believe that it is only BDSM folk who romanticize concepts or parts of history that were ugly at the time. On film and in books, the ‘wild’ west of the US conveniently overlook the fact that it was a deliberate act of genocide to eradicate the Native American people; (who were also enslaved). Ever been to a Civil War re-enactment? Unlike the reality, the ‘dead’ and ‘wounded’ get up and walk away from the battle field, but it is great entertainment for the crowds who come to watch. Good point. I used to love the romantic book Gone With the Wind, but now can't stomach its roseate view of slavery.

dcnovice -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 5:30:08 PM)
quote: Good thread topic, DC Thanks, luci. It was my first foray in posting a BDSM thread, and I've been delighted not to need the flame-retardant gear I toted along.

dcnovice -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 5:32:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catize quote: On a side note, if slavery is slavery, then I beleive the people expressing that viewpoint and the viewpoint of non consentual slavery in a society being a good idea should be the first ones to be made slaves when the reform happens. And brand their chests with the words: “I voted for non-consensual slavery.” [sm=biggrin.gif] [sm=biggrin.gif] [sm=biggrin.gif] [sm=biggrin.gif] [sm=biggrin.gif] [sm=biggrin.gif]

Aswad -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 5:42:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice It's possible, I realize, they had in mind some Gorean vision rather than real-life slavery as it's been practiced on Earth. Indeed. There is a significant difference. For what it's worth, I concur that few people would be able to embrace the values that would let it play out any differently from the past we see on earth; then again, I've been called a cynic, and don't object to that. It's also clear that the ethics in question are rather different from those in mainstream society, or even in BDSM society, so it's kind of pointless to judge it by other standards. A Gorean holds values that don't fly by Western standards. Most Western persons hold values that don't fly by Gorean standards. It's part of the reason for keeping that part of the boards seperate from the rest. Anything else just results in rather unproductive exchanges, and mutually harsh judgments. quote: Nature approves of slavery. Nature neither approves of, nor disapproves of, anything. It simply is what it is. quote: We might be able to update the institution of slavery to make it work for modern times. Depending on the goals and the framework, sure thing. Prison is one variation of it that seems commonly accepted. quote: All this has left me wondering if we're at risk of romanticizing slavery. There wasn't much romanticizing going on, really, except regarding the ideal cases. And a definition of slavery would be helpful in determining what constitutes romanticism. quote: Does anyone else feel discomfort at sharing language and symbols with one of the great evils of human history? Nope. I use the words "work" and "church" quite frequently. Never does that have the same connotations for me as "Arbeit macht frei" or "Kinder, küchen und kirche". I also used to wear a cross at one point, which did not trouble me, despite it being a horrific way to kill someone. I use the "thumbs up" symbol frequently, and never implying that I am saying "okay, you entertain me, so I will not have you killed." Context is everything. Health, al-Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 5:51:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive And some of the people on the Gorean board think that all women are wired to be slaves. Idiots abound everywhere. Would you say this side of the board has been without similar displays of sillyness? quote: While I will not shit in the Gorean sandbox when I wasn't invited there, I will say that I find the idea laughable and a weird way to rationalize one's own kink. Indeed. It's used by many who claim to be Gorean to rationalize their kinks when they are, in truth, unable to master so much as a wet paper towel. Suffice to say that such a thing is a good way to distinguish between those who claim to be, and those who are. Not the only way, mind you, but a good place to start. It'll screen about 90% of those who rely on misinterpreting external sources to compensate for their own shortcomings. Another good way to distinguish is whether it's about kink for them or not, as it just isn't. Health, al-Aswad.

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