RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (Full Version)

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marieToo -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 5:55:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I think most people on earth would agree that nonconsensual slavery such as that  throughout history is wrong, bad, or any other negative term. 


I would hope so. That's why I was shocked to see so many votes on the Gorean thread for nonconsensual slavery. That made me wonder if folks really grasped just how horrific nonconsensual slavery is.


At first read, I wondered too.  Then I saw all the responses rolling in from all the slaves who claim that they floated powerlessly to their Masters like some kind of divinity that could only exist in a sub-species for a special select few who were 'chosen'.  They're called 'real slaves'.  And their slavery is realer than anyone else's.  In fact it's so real that commoners won't even be able to wrap their heads around the concept of having 'no choice' (non-consent).  Yes, they are romantizing slavery in order to lift themselves and their slavery up, like angles ascending to the heavens. 
 
What they are really doing is trying to redefine "non-consentual slavery" in order to say "my slavery is realer than yours".  I had no choice, I was chosen by Master and helpless against it. And that's why non-goreans weren't wecolmed to post lest they be judged as such, as was the warning in the OP.  They don't need input from outsiders, it might knock their entire illusion off it's fulcrum and they might actually realize that finding a certain spirituality and selflessness in one's "slavehood" most certainly isn't exclusive to Goreans. 
 
Worry not, dc, the bdsm community in general is more firmly rooted in reality from what I have seen, and no one is trying to advocate non-consentual slavery as we know it and define it.
 





Aswad -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 5:56:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I would hope so. That's why I was shocked to see so many votes on the Gorean thread for nonconsensual slavery. That made me wonder if folks really grasped just how horrific nonconsensual slavery is.


Which, among other things, makes me wonder if you grasp the just how wide the gap in outlook is. Horrific things are part of life. That said, what was being talked about was rather different from any historical notion of the concept, although there are distinct similarities. Few were silly enough to suggest that there wouldn't be bad sides to it; most just said it's an acceptable price within the framework in question for the reasons it's used.

It's not something one can wrap one's head around in five minutes of reading on a thread.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 6:03:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I personally wont consider the Gorean viewpoints expressed in that thread to fall in the scope of having anything to do with BDSM and erotic slavery.


Some actually do, but it's a long conversation to explain those, even if you were interested.
But, indeed, most of it has nothing to do with BDSM and erotic slavery.

quote:


People draw a line in the sand between Gorean philosophy and BDSM for some good reasons. This is one of them.


Quite.

quote:


On a side note, if slavery is slavery, then I beleive the people expressing that viewpoint and the viewpoint of non consentual slavery in a society being a good idea should be the first ones to be made slaves when the reform happens.


One might want to have a look at what is actually being suggested. Some who argue it would undoubtedly be among the first ones if it did happen, even in the manner talked about, though I imagine I'm not making any friends on either side by pointing that out. Some who argue it, however, would not fit under what is being suggested. It's a bit like saying people who support capital punishment should be executed without committing a crime.

Health,
al-Aswad.

Edit: Fixed "some who argue it would not" to "some who argue it, however, would not".




AnimusRex -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 6:58:30 PM)

DC novice-
I won't clutter the thread by duplicating my comments found on the Gorean thread on non-consensual slavery-
but what came out of it, after a few exchanges, was the blurring of terms- what most there seemed to be talking about was the internal psychological slavery, where a person is so deeply bound to another they felt helpless to leave.

OK, fine- but my point was that using such bloodcurdling loaded terms like "non-consensual slavery" simply associates what we and they do, with really horrific crimes that occur in much of the world today, such as child sex trafficking, enslavement in Darfur, etc.

My last point on the thread asked that we separate out our terms for slavery (in the BDSM and Gorean context) from the common definition, so people can be specific in what they mean.

Or at least see who really supports the exploitation of child prostitutes, from those who simply enjoy being under a handsome Man's control.




Aswad -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 7:03:57 PM)

I think you are introducing a bit of a false dichotomy, AnimusRex.
There are a lot of other things that fit the word than those two you mentioned.
And it isn't a spectrum from one to the other; rather, those two are points in a huge space.
FWIW, views on children appear similar; that's why a slave shouldn't be raising its own offspring.

Health,
al-Aswad.




dcnovice -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 7:23:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

DC novice-
I won't clutter the thread by duplicating my comments found on the Gorean thread on non-consensual slavery-
but what came out of it, after a few exchanges, was the blurring of terms- what most there seemed to be talking about was the internal psychological slavery, where a person is so deeply bound to another they felt helpless to leave.

OK, fine- but my point was that using such bloodcurdling loaded terms like "non-consensual slavery" simply associates what we and they do, with really horrific crimes that occur in much of the world today, such as child sex trafficking, enslavement in Darfur, etc.

My last point on the thread asked that we separate out our terms for slavery (in the BDSM and Gorean context) from the common definition, so people can be specific in what they mean.

Or at least see who really supports the exploitation of child prostitutes, from those who simply enjoy being under a handsome Man's control.


AR ---

I saw, and appreciated, your thoughts on the other thread!

Cheers,

DC




ImpGrrl -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 7:45:07 PM)

We are speaking of con-sen-su-al slavery here.  Which means that the participants have chosen their lot. 

Consensual slavery is different from non-consensual slavery.

But even in non-consensual slavery, some slaves had rights, educations, free time, property, etc.

Do your research before spouting off.

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

the term SLAVE: Very FEW women have the ultimate experience of being a true slave.  It is, I am pretty sure, a real and dangerous event. Yet, mostly the ones who claim to be qualified as the ultimate slave material would be the first to complain if kidnapped by a stranger to be used and abused (even if he is good-looking).  I dislike the mis-use of the terminology of 'slave' in this concept. So, you ARE a slave but to someone you 'chose' ? ohh I get it now.  NOT. So what you are saying is that you would ONLY be a slave to someone you trusted? If it really came down to it...and some nutbar took you from a convenience store...you would file a lawsuit if the cops didn't help you soon enough? What if you had no rights, no passport? No job.  Even as a temporary slave, between men ..ya gotta eat. If you are smart enought to be reading this on a computer...you are not a slave.  A slave wouldn't be near a computer exept to dust it like it were an old betamax player because obviously your Master doesn't get out much either. How dare we toss the word 'slave' around like it is a good thing. It is not lighthearted word to be used as play. Get a grip.  Slaves aren't online 5-7 hrs/day.  Do something productive. A true slave would use a computer to do her/his Master's work..not as an outlet for your self-esteem. A slaves only self-worth is what she is told to have-to be given or taken at any time. NOT 'brb honey, I am finishing this email'.




ImpGrrl -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 7:56:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Reason I gave up on consensual slavery was this-I had to be the "master" all the time-or they tended to implode with insecurity. I'm too busy for that most of the time-sometimes I just need to be mr. regular-and not have my partner going into screaming hysteria and pouting over it.


You just had the wrong partner for that dynamic - or the wrong dynamic for that partner.




ImpGrrl -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 8:03:20 PM)

I loved this post - really liked it too much to pick on a typo.

But I couldn't help laughing at the visual that "like angles ascending to the heavens" brought to me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I think most people on earth would agree that nonconsensual slavery such as that  throughout history is wrong, bad, or any other negative term. 


I would hope so. That's why I was shocked to see so many votes on the Gorean thread for nonconsensual slavery. That made me wonder if folks really grasped just how horrific nonconsensual slavery is.


At first read, I wondered too.  Then I saw all the responses rolling in from all the slaves who claim that they floated powerlessly to their Masters like some kind of divinity that could only exist in a sub-species for a special select few who were 'chosen'.  They're called 'real slaves'.  And their slavery is realer than anyone else's.  In fact it's so real that commoners won't even be able to wrap their heads around the concept of having 'no choice' (non-consent).  Yes, they are romantizing slavery in order to lift themselves and their slavery up, like angles ascending to the heavens. 
 
What they are really doing is trying to redefine "non-consentual slavery" in order to say "my slavery is realer than yours".  I had no choice, I was chosen by Master and helpless against it. And that's why non-goreans weren't wecolmed to post lest they be judged as such, as was the warning in the OP.  They don't need input from outsiders, it might knock their entire illusion off it's fulcrum and they might actually realize that finding a certain spirituality and selflessness in one's "slavehood" most certainly isn't exclusive to Goreans. 
 
Worry not, dc, the bdsm community in general is more firmly rooted in reality from what I have seen, and no one is trying to advocate non-consentual slavery as we know it and define it.
 






slaveluci -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 8:08:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Good thread topic, DC


Thanks, luci. It was my first foray in posting a BDSM thread, and I've been delighted not to need the flame-retardant gear I toted along.

You are very welcome, DC.  I didn't realize it was your first BDSM thread-start.  Great job and I too am glad you didn't nead that gear[:)]...............luci




marieToo -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 8:19:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl

I loved this post - really liked it too much to pick on a typo.



Well, I know "realer" isn't really a real word.  Beyond that, I'm sure I had typos.

Glad you had a laugh over it anyway...

: )




marieToo -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 8:23:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

but what came out of it, after a few exchanges, was the blurring of terms- what most there seemed to be talking about was the internal psychological slavery, where a person is so deeply bound to another they felt helpless to leave.



I'm glad you posted this, because I couldn't think of the term for this particular mindset.  It's actually very common, and often vanilla people experience it with their partners also.




dcnovice -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/7/2007 11:44:57 PM)

quote:

We are speaking of con-sen-su-al slavery here.  Which means that the participants have chosen their lot. 


Actually, we've been talking about both. The OP was sparked by a thread on nonconsensual slavery.




thetammyjo -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/8/2007 6:25:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl

We are speaking of con-sen-su-al slavery here. Which means that the participants have chosen their lot.

Consensual slavery is different from non-consensual slavery.

But even in non-consensual slavery, some slaves had rights, educations, free time, property, etc.

Do your research before spouting off.



That group was always a small minority and they could lose all of that in the blink of an eye either at the whim of an owner or the dictates of the state.

However it is that small group that I personally draw inspiration from for some of the rituals and duties that I have my own slaves do.

Unlike historical or institutional slaves though, mine can just pack up their stuff and leave without serious physical or legal repercussions. No one's going to hunt down Fox and re-enslave him today or feel it's their duty to beat him unless they want to explain that to the cops. True he might face social repercussions -- someone might question why things ended, if he is capable of maintaining a Ds or Ms dynamic, etc, but that's far different than what a runaway historical or institutional slave would face.




leatherette -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/8/2007 6:55:11 AM)

[:)] Thanks again for raising a thoughtful topic, dcnovice!

I hope that people realize some of us - um..like me... [;)]  were stating an over the top position - just 'cause at times it seems people tend to judge and/or take things so seriously.
 
Hope that makes sense...
 
hugs




slaveluci -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/8/2007 7:10:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

but what came out of it, after a few exchanges, was the blurring of terms- what most there seemed to be talking about was the internal psychological slavery, where a person is so deeply bound to another they felt helpless to leave.



I'm glad you posted this, because I couldn't think of the term for this particular mindset.  It's actually very common, and often vanilla people experience it with their partners also.

I actually mentioned "internal enslavement" all the way back in post #26[&o]..............luci[:)]




dcnovice -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/8/2007 8:43:24 AM)

quote:

That group was always a small minority and they could lose all of that in the blink of an eye either at the whim of an owner or the dictates of the state.


TammyJo, thanks for lending your historian's expertise to the thread!




AquaticSub -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/8/2007 9:49:41 AM)

~Fast Reply~

Yes I think we do.

Part of the reason I am uncomfortable with the idea of a "true slave" is that I don't believe one exists on these boards. A "true slave" is someone who did not consent to their collar, does not get to beg release, and was - most likely - ripped away from their family with no care as who this person was.

Slavery does still exist today, mostly in the form of sex slaves or domestic workers. They are true slaves and I feel like trying to make ourselves out to be "real" slaves just trivializes their suffering.




Nosathro -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/8/2007 10:10:16 AM)

Greetings
 
It is true that the Gorean view is that Men are dominate it is the actual view that all women are slave, there are Free Women.  John Norman, I think, was trying to express a view point that in all of nature there is a dominate sex and you do find this in nature.  In Gorean terms slavery was as with many culturals of the past, simply commerce.
 
I wish you well
 
Nosathro
quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

And some of the people on the Gorean board think that all women are wired to be slaves.  While I will not shit in the Gorean sandbox when I wasn't invited there, I will say that I find the idea laughable and a weird way to rationalize one's own kink.

MSS




slaveluci -> RE: Do we romanticize slavery? (10/8/2007 11:47:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

~Fast Reply~

Yes I think we do.

Part of the reason I am uncomfortable with the idea of a "true slave" is that I don't believe one exists on these boards. A "true slave" is someone who did not consent to their collar, does not get to beg release, and was - most likely - ripped away from their family with no care as who this person was.

Slavery does still exist today, mostly in the form of sex slaves or domestic workers. They are true slaves and I feel like trying to make ourselves out to be "real" slaves just trivializes their suffering.

Very well said, Aquatic.  I agree that no one one these boards is a "true" slave in the sense of being a slave as we understand it historically.  To me, though, there is a vast difference between being such a slave and being a "consensual slave."  As others have mentioned, the term "slave" is, in essence I suppose, erroneous.  But, it's usage implies what my role is and by no means attempts to equate my life with that of a "true" nonconsensual slave.  I truly hope that no one really believes that those of us here and elsewhere that use the term mean to trivialize the suffering of anyone anywhere who is forced into slavery.  I know I certainly do not.................luci 




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