RE: Freedom -from- religion?

RE: Freedom -from- religion? (Full Version)

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kdsub -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 8:56:05 AM)
Hi again meatcleaver My such big words…lol… that’s the point… we both make claims that can not be proved or disproved… your theories carry no more or less weight then mine. There is no absolute tested truth of anything except in a very strict context. Just because your are squashed like a bug on the windshield when you jump from a tall building here and now cannot be proven it will be the same result somewhere else in the universe or time. … hmmm how is that for gobbleygoop...how do you spell that…lol… see how helpless and unknowing we really are. We are arguing both sides of the un-provable. But it is fun Oh by the way don’t think religious people don’t doubt they do … we are no different than you really…we hope and pray there is a God but spend sometime afraid there isn’t. While you believe there is not a God but spend sometime thinking there may be. Sounds like we are more alike then different…brother..lol I sure wish I knew what God was thinking… it would sure makes things easier to understand. Butch

NorthernGent -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 10:32:27 AM)
General reply: Religion is not the only cause of war during the centuries; not by a long chalk. The problems with organised religion, however, are two-fold: 1) For some people, it defines the very essence of their existence; it is everything to them, and makes it extremely easy for malevolent governments/leaders/dictators to use organised religion as an excuse for war. In other words, make it seem like someone is threatening their religion, and it's tantamount to a threat to their very reason for being. 2) It is an absolute. There is no room for bending with organised religion, each believes they have the right way, the good way; the fact that this is self-bestowed, is lost on them, but then that's the danger of the absolute idea. That is why so many people have killed in the name of Christianity or Islam or Hinduism, because they believe they have the one, true answer to the world's ills and when someone believes they have the answer, then the means will always justify the ends in that person's eyes: "some will die, but they'll thank us for it later because we have the answers and they don't". You can see this in Iraq; it is utterly steeped in Christian morals and culture. You could argue it's people, rather than religion, but that's the weakest argument since Jack Ripper argued "it was only a few kidneys, what's the problem?" Organised religion is a controlling tool, it organises people into submission and I'm not sure there's a better tool to galvanise people for war. It prevents growth, ideas and innovation because it boxes people in, and lays out the boundaries for their level of thinking; they are not to proceed beyond a certain mindset. You could argue that organised religion is useful in that it provides stability, and as such serves to dampen man's passions. Well, maybe 600 years ago, but I don't buy that because we have organising factors in the shape of work, family and government providing the same stability. On balance, organised religion is a hinderance rather than a help. I'm no Atheist, by the way, I really don't care if there's a god or not. It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to my life if it was proved one way or the other.

Alumbrado -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 12:23:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Atheism may be a belief but it is a weak one. I mean that in a way not to put down anyone’s non-belief in God…but simply according to humane nature. Now at least be truthful to yourself … you have prayed haven’t you. If you experience enough of life and its pain and fear….you have prayed. In desperation and fear for those we love or fear of our mortality we pray. If not yet then just give it time. We want ...we yearn…we need… a God to make since out of time with no beginning…distance with no ending…. the how…but most certainly the why of us. Atheism can never find the answers to those questions that is why it is a weak belief system. Butch Science and philosphy offer answers for those questions. So do superstition and religion. Atheism says that gods are not the answer, and agnosticism isn't sure. Feel free to pick whichever source appeals to you.

CuriousLord -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 1:19:47 PM)
Religion is only stupid; it's not illegal. I sort of doubt that the person who said the quote you made the OP on was claiming that. Sounds like that they just meant that freedom of religion meant that we didn't have to be subjected to religion.

luckydog1 -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 2:03:37 PM)
The quote I based to OP specificly distinguished between freedom OF and Freedom FROM religion. In a democracy of mostly religous people, there will certainly be an influence of religion. IMO you can't have freedom from religion (the opinion of the majority) unless you scrap the idea of democracy.

Alumbrado -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 2:15:59 PM)
Still waiting to hear how we can have freedom to choose between religions, and not have freedom from the demands of others to believe as they do. And if the 'freedom of religion' concept does include the freedom to refuse to follow some religions, then why not all?

kdsub -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 2:21:06 PM)
Hi Alumbrado… nice talking to you...always a pleasure. I agree mostly with you except your premise that science offers answers to my questions. It may in the future but as of now science is the measure of reality not the explanation for it. As for Religion and philosophy… well they are the same thing. Superstition is a fearful or abject state of mind resulting from ignorance ...at least according to my dictionary… I don’t think ignorance should be applied here… Many people of unquestioned intelligence have believed in God… including me [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m10.gif[/image] … Someday we may know the answer. Butch

luckydog1 -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 2:24:36 PM)
Well alumbrado, there is a difference between demanding something, and legal enforcement of it. People demand all sorts of things, some religous based, some not. It is called free speech. If a group of people choose not to like you for whatever reason, that is allowed, be it you going to burn in hell or supporting the war. There are times I wish I didn't have to listen to Anti war folks or athiests push thier views, but it is free speech. I am sure someone who thinks anyone with a shred of religious thinking is a deluded fool, gets very tired of hearing people say "God bless you" when they sneeze, but thats too damn bad. You don't get the freedom to shut people up (within a few limits directly inciting violence, obscenity, ect). You absolutly have the right to not follow any religion you want, and to hold any belief system you like(in America).

luckydog1 -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 2:26:45 PM)
Also on the topic of Homosexuality, it is far more than just the Christians (abrahmaic faiths--Jews and Moslems)that oppose it. It seems to have been the norm in most cultures through time.

NorthernGent -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 2:30:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 You absolutly have the right to not follow any religion you want, and to hold any belief system you like(in America). Witch hunts against communists in the '50s and '60s?

Alumbrado -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 3:04:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Well alumbrado, there is a difference between demanding something, and legal enforcement of it. People demand all sorts of things, some religous based, some not. It is called free speech. If a group of people choose not to like you for whatever reason, that is allowed, be it you going to burn in hell or supporting the war. There are times I wish I didn't have to listen to Anti war folks or athiests push thier views, but it is free speech. I am sure someone who thinks anyone with a shred of religious thinking is a deluded fool, gets very tired of hearing people say "God bless you" when they sneeze, but thats too damn bad. You don't get the freedom to shut people up (within a few limits directly inciting violence, obscenity, ect). You absolutly have the right to not follow any religion you want, and to hold any belief system you like(in America). Then maybe I'm misreading you. The 'Freedom of religion' notion was a reaction to the criminal prosecution, and legal execution of people for not believing what one religion or another claimed they should... Quakers were tried and hung, non-Catholics were tortured to death, etc. And some of the victims of religion, came to some of the American colonies on the premise that they were free to believe any way they chose, without being punished. Last I checked, that freedom provides the basis for the concept that the government shouldn't be allowing any religion to force its views on non-believers. And forcing would include screaming 'You are all going to Hell!!' in a place where others have gathered for a different purpose, and other 'evangelical' measures. So again, how could we really have freedom of religion, if we cannot stop those whose beliefs demand that they force everyone to believe as they do? And if we do have the right to be free from such overbearing expressions of religion, then we have, in effect, freedom from religion.

philosophy -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 4:42:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: philosophy: ..in my views the idea of freedom from religion has to be observed at the governmental level to be meaningful. It's no use having a right not to pray if the leader of your country makes decisions from a religious standpoint. quote: Level: That's impossible to achieve, phil. If a man or woman is religious, then that almost certainly is going to come into play. It's important to remember, I think, that a leader's religious beliefs can be a force for good. I think Lincoln's opposition to slavery was rooted at least partly in his faith. FDR's sense of Christian compassion underlay his efforts to relieve misery during the Depression. LBJ pusued civil rights legislation--knowing, as he said, that it would cost Democrats the South for 50 years--because he believed it was right. ....sadly for every leader you name who made a good decision based on their personal faith, i can name one who made a bad one. Religion and government is not a good combination in my view. To be a leader is to be a servant, to serve those who believe differently to you as well as those with whom you agree.......that precludes ones personal faith in my opinion.

Owner59 -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 5:36:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Also on the topic of Homosexuality, it is far more than just the Christians (abrahmaic faiths--Jews and Moslems)that oppose it. It seems to have been the norm in most cultures through time. So was slavery( the bad kind).

Owner59 -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 5:42:10 PM)
This is a story about the born-agains,clubbing GIs over the head,and at a time when they are the most vulnerable. It`s not right,to have a superiors officer,proselytizing to lower ranks. That`s not their place. <clipped> For example, he says, Lt. Gen. William Boykin, who gave speeches at churches while in uniform that disparaged Islam and defined the war on terror in fundamentalist, "end times" terms, was not fired but promoted. (Speaking of a Muslim warlord he had pursued, Lt. Gen. Boykin said, "I knew my God was a real God and his was an idol." And our enemies "will only be defeated if we come against them in the name of Jesus.") "There's an eschatologically obsessed version of Christianity that ... is trying to make American foreign and domestic policy conterminous with their biblical worldview," Weinstein charges. And "there's improper pressure within the military command structure to make members join them." http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1004/p13s02-lire.html

luckydog1 -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 6:22:34 PM)
Alumbrado, 'evangelical measures" covers a lot of ground. Can some one come disrupt others, no, they have the right to assemble. To me it seems that one has the same right to try to convince people to love Jesus, as one has to try to convince people to hate Bush. we can stop the actions of certain people if they cross a line, but to try to controll thier thoughts seems rather totalitarian to me.

Invictus754 -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 7:47:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 On a recent thread a post was made, "IMO,freedom of religon,also means freedom ~from~ religon". What exactly does that mean? We are talking about bedrock constitutional rights here. Does it mean others can't think they way they want? Isn't that demanding the right to controll other's minds? Does it mean there can be no churches? If people want to get together, it is illegal? Prayer (a form of speech) is illegal? It seems to be absolute totalitarianism to me, but perhaps I am missing something. What does "freedom from religion" mean? Freedom from religion means that no church can be proclaimed the "true american church of faith". you won't be forced to join a church you don't believe in, and you can be catholic, presbytarian, unitarian, jewish, pagan, wiccan, LDS, RLDS, FLDS, satan worshiper, snake charmer, holy roller, or even baptist ... or whatever type of graven image worshipper you want to be in your own house or building of worship with all the other like-minded zealots ... without the government telling you that your church is illegal. How would you feel if the government stepped in and outlawed all churches but the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints? You HAVE to be FLDS and a polygamist! NO CHOICE! (and Warren Jeffs chooses all the ugly girls for you because he doesn't like you). How about the church of Invictus? Yeah...that's the ticket! You are forced to worship ME! (and tithes are now 20%. I know in my heart that this is what Dubya yearns for. Church of W...don't forget to bless yourself with the Holy Oil at the back of the church.) THAT, my friend, is freedom from religion. Of course, it does also mean that one of your choices is NO church, and you should respect that choice just as if someone said they were baptist. You wouldn't tell a baptist "you're baptist?!? that isn't a REAL god you worship! why can't you join (your church here) and worship a REAL god?" Concerning the prayer in school: don't pray in my school, and I promise we'll keep evolution out of your church. Of course, you won't be able to keep some people in your church from thinking that the pastor is not fucking nuts when they hear the stories of creation, and then see a dinosaur skeleton 60 feet long ... but like prayer in school you won't able to stop it. :)

dcnovice -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 7:49:02 PM)
quote: Church of W...don't forget to bless yourself with the Holy Oil at the back of the church.) Texas crude, I trust.

Invictus754 -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 7:58:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Church of W...don't forget to bless yourself with the Holy Oil at the back of the church.) Texas crude, I trust. Exactly! In the name of Exxon, Chevron, and Haliburton makes the sign of the dollar

dcnovice -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 7:59:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Invictus754 quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Church of W...don't forget to bless yourself with the Holy Oil at the back of the church.) Texas crude, I trust. Exactly! In the name of Exxon, Chevron, and Haliburton makes the sign of the dollar Now please rise and sing "What a Friend We Have in Petro."

Invictus754 -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 8:04:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: ORIGINAL: Invictus754 quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Church of W...don't forget to bless yourself with the Holy Oil at the back of the church.) Texas crude, I trust. Exactly! In the name of Exxon, Chevron, and Haliburton makes the sign of the dollar Now please rise and sing "What a Friend We Have in Petro." Ahem "A Mighty Fortress is our W...a wimp who's always wailing... Our helper He, amid the flood of overpriced oils prevailing For still our ancient foe doth seek to work us woe; His craft and power are great, and, armed with cruel hate, On earth is not his equal."

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