RE: Freedom -from- religion?

RE: Freedom -from- religion? (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 8:13:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Invictus754 quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: ORIGINAL: Invictus754 quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Church of W...don't forget to bless yourself with the Holy Oil at the back of the church.) Texas crude, I trust. Exactly! In the name of Exxon, Chevron, and Haliburton makes the sign of the dollar Now please rise and sing "What a Friend We Have in Petro." Ahem "A Mighty Fortress is our W...a wimp who's always wailing... Our helper He, amid the flood of overpriced oils prevailing For still our ancient foe doth seek to work us woe; His craft and power are great, and, armed with cruel hate, On earth is not his equal." [sm=biggrin.gif] [sm=biggrin.gif] [sm=biggrin.gif] [sm=biggrin.gif] [sm=biggrin.gif]

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 8:29:53 PM)
Not sure what you are googling because I found many referenced by using Student Prayer Denied. I then used School Private Prayer and found a few others. You can discount it if you like, but I have nothing to prove. Disprove my statements if you wish. Orion quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Do you have a real reference for this? Because googling "There have already been several cases of students accused of 'praying' in school, and told they could not do that" sounds like a non-starter. And what happened AFTERWARDS? If a student's right to pray whenever he damn well feels like it was upheld in the end, the whole example was a red herring. quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Actually he is. There have already been several cases of students accused of "praying" in school, and told they could not do that. Try google and you will find some really absurd things on both sides of this debate. quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster No he's not. That poor kid can just say a prayer. When people say they don't want school prayer, they're not talking about a kid praying before his math test. They're talking about mandated and organized prayer sessions--like the Pledge of Allegiance before class, but with Christ the Savior as the supreme object. quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf So there are two extremes on each side, and the poor kid that wants to pass his exam, and say a little prayer is caught in the middle.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 8:32:35 PM)
The courts uphold it when they are taken to court. But the extreme views are there and influencing the decisions. Make the statements clear to the school officials and the students. Creating small brochures would be easy. Let them have their private prayer and then tell those that want somethem official to move to a country that supports official prayer in the schools, like Iran. Orion quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Actually he is. There have already been several cases of students accused of "praying" in school, and told they could not do that. Try google and you will find some really absurd things on both sides of this debate. I'm well aware that a small number of cases of such have occured and am also aware that in all those cases the school official involved was misinformed of the law and was quickly corrected. After a great deal of research I've not found a single case that ever went before a judge much less an appelate court. Too bad that when a public school violates their students rights the other way such reasonableness is so often not on display.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 8:34:52 PM)
Prove that love exists. Things are called a belief, because it is internal, and not something that can be provne. If it could be proven, it would be science. People study philosophy all the time but it is ideals. Religions are a form of philosophy that often use metaphore, stories, and parrabels to teach the philosophy and morals. Orion quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne believers line up their evidence on one side and nonbelievers line up theirs on the other side. Believers don't have any evidence that is the point! If you went round saying you believed in just about anything else other than god and produced no evidence, people would think you are as nutty as a fruit cake. Blind belief is not evidence. Tony Blair believed there were WMDs in Iraq, people believed him on whaddaya know? There weren't any and even then there was more reason to believe there were WMDs in Iraq than there is reason to believe in god!

Owner59 -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 8:35:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 The quote I based to OP specificly distinguished between freedom OF and Freedom FROM religion. In a democracy of mostly religous people, there will certainly be an influence of religion. IMO you can't have freedom from religion (the opinion of the majority) unless you scrap the idea of democracy. And just who`s going to enforce that someone doesn`t have freedom FROM religion? Who is going to be the "faith tester",or the religious police?

DomKen -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 8:37:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf The courts uphold it when they are taken to court. But the extreme views are there and influencing the decisions. Make the statements clear to the school officials and the students. Creating small brochures would be easy. Let them have their private prayer and then tell those that want somethem official to move to a country that supports official prayer in the schools, like Iran. Orion Nope. Show me a case that was actually litigated or don't make the claim.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 8:38:10 PM)
Ahhh we must be substituting the word religion for any Abrahamic faith. There are many different religions. Have you ever asked a Taoist about God? Orion quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub You know meatcleaver the latest theories in science…hmmm I wonder if a theory of science and religion are the same….state that if you jump off the Empire State building enough times…eventually one time you will walk back thru the door unhurt. The PBS series on string theory used the example of walking thru a wall but it is the same premise. Otherwise all things are not only possible in infinity of space and time but if thought become fact. So if the theory is true then we can all be right...at some time there is a God and in another there is not. Now to me that makes perfect since… because it is based in reality… in your mind there is none… for you that is a truth a fact of nature… In mine there is another fact of nature God existence. Of course our little individual island in the universe is all that really matters. When we are gone so is the universe. Butch Scientific speculation is just that, speculation, it doesn't claim to be truth or fact, at some point the theory will be tested, then we can discuss it. If you jump off the Empire state building once, the chances are you will be in no fit state to jump off it a second time so speculating that if you jump off it enough times and you will walk back through the door is meaningless except in theory. Religion doesn't speculate about the existence of god, it claims god exists! It doesn't just claim that god exists, it claims to know what god thinks!

Alumbrado -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 9:30:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Alumbrado, 'evangelical measures" covers a lot of ground. Can some one come disrupt others, no, they have the right to assemble. To me it seems that one has the same right to try to convince people to love Jesus, as one has to try to convince people to hate Bush. we can stop the actions of certain people if they cross a line, but to try to controll thier thoughts seems rather totalitarian to me. So how is trying and hanging Quakers if they won't convert, not trying to control their thoughts? Too many sects insist that others must be punished, for the phrase 'freedom of religion' to be absolute.

Real0ne -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 10:26:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf The courts uphold it when they are taken to court. But the extreme views are there and influencing the decisions. Make the statements clear to the school officials and the students. Creating small brochures would be easy. Let them have their private prayer and then tell those that want somethem official to move to a country that supports official prayer in the schools, like Iran. Orion Nope. Show me a case that was actually litigated or don't make the claim. I did how many more do you need?

meatcleaver -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/8/2007 11:13:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Ahhh we must be substituting the word religion for any Abrahamic faith. There are many different religions. Have you ever asked a Taoist about God? Orion We are pedantic aren't we. Yes there are nature based religions and more philosophical based religions and ageing hippies but they all have the one true answer, that is thew nature of religion. Whether the ultimate truth of a religion is a god or the west wind into oblivion, it makes little difference, religious people claim to have a direst route to the ultimate truth.

luckydog1 -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/9/2007 1:54:12 AM)
Alumbrado, what is this hanging of Quakers you refer to? I don't get it. Did that happen in pre revolutionary America? There is not really a problem with making certain acts illegal, even if sanctioned by a religion.

Alumbrado -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/9/2007 7:17:23 AM)
quote: Alumbrado, what is this hanging of Quakers you refer to? It happened during the time frame you referenced... colonial America. And up until more recently, laws were still used to punish people for ignoring certain religious doctrines, such as working on the Christian Sabbath, or teaching evolution. And I'm not sure what you mean by '...There is not really a problem with making certain acts illegal, even if sanctioned by a religion'. (I doubt if you are OK with making it a capital offense to practice a different religion, as Massachusetts did.) How could we make such a law illegal? If you get it overuled by a higher court, then you are advocating that the government keep people free from religion. If I'm still reading your OP correctly, the answer would seem to include the idea that those fleeing religious persecution would be the ones who would need 'freedom of religion' to be 'freedom from other people's religion'. Because there will always be those who see their 'freedom of religion', as the freedom to deny other's their differing beliefs.

Alumbrado -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/9/2007 7:29:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Hi Alumbrado… nice talking to you...always a pleasure. Thank you, my pleasure as well. Sorry for the delay in replying. quote: I agree mostly with you except your premise that science offers answers to my questions. It may in the future but as of now science is the measure of reality not the explanation for it. I'll buy that, in many areas, science is better at explaining how than why, and when it attempts to answer the big questions, we wind up with a parade of successive hypotheses. quote: As for Religion and philosophy… well they are the same thing. No big problem with that. quote: Superstition is a fearful or abject state of mind resulting from ignorance ...at least according to my dictionary… I don’t think ignorance should be applied here… Many people of unquestioned intelligence have believed in God… including me [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m10.gif[/image] … Someday we may know the answer. Butch The Old Testament God was one abject fear inducing dude, who demanded that people believe and obey without question, according to most accounts... 'awful' didn't used to mean disgusting, it meant 'filling with awe'... which God did regularly. No knowledge was required to believe, so ignorance isn't completely off base, if you 'ignore' the insulting aspect of the term...[:D]. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=awful&searchmode=none

DomKen -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/9/2007 7:41:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf The courts uphold it when they are taken to court. But the extreme views are there and influencing the decisions. Make the statements clear to the school officials and the students. Creating small brochures would be easy. Let them have their private prayer and then tell those that want somethem official to move to a country that supports official prayer in the schools, like Iran. Orion Nope. Show me a case that was actually litigated or don't make the claim. I did how many more do you need? Just reread every post you have made in this thread and you have presented no such thing.

Real0ne -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/9/2007 9:38:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne I did how many more do you need? Just reread every post you have made in this thread and you have presented no such thing. Hmm... looks like you may have a point here. It boils down to there are no laws that prevent prayer in schools, however there are laws that prevent state sponsored prayer or any form of mandated prayer. If children are given personal time and they want to pray during that time there is nothing that anyone can do about it as long as it is noncoercive on others.

luckydog1 -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/9/2007 9:44:22 AM)
Yes alumbrado, you misread my point entirerly. In America we have "freedom of religion"(that is the commonly used phrase), Some people want a freedom "from"religion (it was specifically differentiated from "of religion"), and I asked for comment as to what that means. Blue laws, were not religously imposed, they were imposed and repealed by the Democratic process, though they had a religous origin. Same for laws against Murder. What gets taught in the classroom is and always ahs been politically decided. Do you disagree with my comment that in a democracy composed of mostly religous people, that morality will be expressed?

Alumbrado -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/9/2007 1:34:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Yes alumbrado, you misread my point entirerly. In America we have "freedom of religion"(that is the commonly used phrase), Some people want a freedom "from"religion (it was specifically differentiated from "of religion"), and I asked for comment as to what that means. Blue laws, were not religously imposed, they were imposed and repealed by the Democratic process, though they had a religous origin. Same for laws against Murder. What gets taught in the classroom is and always ahs been politically decided. Do you disagree with my comment that in a democracy composed of mostly religous people, that morality will be expressed? When the religious government of Mass. or England, or Spain, or the Vatican, makes it a hanging offense to practice a different religion, 'laws against murder' offer no protection. When the religious majority makes it a criminal offense to practice Judaism, or teach things that refute the Bible, that can't be considered a strictly secular matter. (To answer your question, it is definitely morality, since morality is the following of the group's rules on conduct). Being forced to follow the doctrine of the majority can never be true freedom of religion, it is only freedom to conform to certain religions. And that is the kind of religion that some folks feel the need to be free from

FullCircle -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/9/2007 2:20:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Religous origins are at the root of all morals. Murder, theft, rape, ect. We decide exactly how to legislate morals through our democratic process. Gay marriage is not illegal because the Church says so. there isn't even a "the Church". But because most people (who are mostly religous to a degree) voted that way. Same with Murder. Religions have existed long before any laws were written so what took these people so long writing these laws exactly? Isn’t it more realistic to say that human compassion leads to the writing of most laws? People may quote the Ten Commandments as being written into law but what happened to all the nasty punishments for breaking these commandments, where are they in law? quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Atheism may be a belief but it is a weak one. I mean that in a way not to put down anyone’s non-belief in God…but simply according to humane nature. Now at least be truthful to yourself … you have prayed haven’t you. If you experience enough of life and its pain and fear….you have prayed. In desperation and fear for those we love or fear of our mortality we pray. If not yet then just give it time. We want ...we yearn…we need… a God to make since out of time with no beginning…distance with no ending…. the how…but most certainly the why of us. Atheism can never find the answers to those questions that is why it is a weak belief system. Butch The human weakness for false hope is hardly what I’d call faith. When I’m on my death bed I may play the odds and Prey but then someone would argue I wouldn’t be in a fit state of mind at the time. Maybe you believe breaking mirrors doesn’t give you bad luck but you wouldn’t break one on purpose to try to disprove the superstition would you?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/9/2007 3:18:06 PM)
You show your ignorance by making a blanket statement about over 4000 religions. Again I state, you are making statements based upon what you believe that you know. I also said you should prove love based upon something you said, and you never responded to that. Absolutes are usually absolutely wrong. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Ahhh we must be substituting the word religion for any Abrahamic faith. There are many different religions. Have you ever asked a Taoist about God? Orion We are pedantic aren't we. Yes there are nature based religions and more philosophical based religions and ageing hippies but they all have the one true answer, that is thew nature of religion. Whether the ultimate truth of a religion is a god or the west wind into oblivion, it makes little difference, religious people claim to have a direst route to the ultimate truth.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/9/2007 3:22:35 PM)
I will make the claim there is a green elephant in your living room if I like, but there isn't. You see I do not discuss like many of you, were you assume a lie and have to prove the truth afterwards. To me it is the difference between a constructive arguement and the pontification I see from those that wish to argue to score points. I will give you a small clue, to help with your impotent googling: 2000-NOV: TX: Kerr High School, Houston: The principal threatened to suspend 30 students if they prayed during lunch hour. She suggested that they pray either before or after school hours. If you are too lazy to do the search yourself, stop blaming me. Just below my post is this little hyper command named "block". I think it will help the both of us. quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf The courts uphold it when they are taken to court. But the extreme views are there and influencing the decisions. Make the statements clear to the school officials and the students. Creating small brochures would be easy. Let them have their private prayer and then tell those that want somethem official to move to a country that supports official prayer in the schools, like Iran. Orion Nope. Show me a case that was actually litigated or don't make the claim.

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