RE: Freedom -from- religion?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Freedom -from- religion?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Freedom -from- religion?

Page: << < prev 7 8 [9] 10 11 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/9/2007 4:19:12 PM

Petronius

Posts: 289
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Fundamentalist whining aside, there are no "laws against prayer" and therefore no discrimination against religious students when "prayer is banned."

There are laws against harassment, against inciting to riot, against disturbing the peace, and against disturbing school functions.

People who decide to use school property and time for an informal Klan rally are likely to get nailed for harassment.

Students who decide that civics class is a good time to have a pep rally for Bush (or Clinton) may get nailed for disturbing school functioning. So might students who pray alound.

That's not discrimination against religious students; it's non-discrimination by treating them just like everybody else.

And that's what they can't handle; and that universal treatment is, to them, discrimination.

The "bearing false witness" of Christian propaganda aside, prayer has never been banned from public schools. Chilren pray all of the time for God to let them pass the math test, to smite the heathens of the opposing football team, or to destroy the infidel in Baghdad or Washington.

They only thing they can't do is perform their prayer alound.

Similarly, there's no law against students having sexual fantasies in school about the head cheerleader of captain of the football team. But there are laws against predenting those fantasies aloud as well.

Same difference.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 161

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/9/2007 4:30:30 PM

Petronius

Posts: 289
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

The quote I based to OP specificly distinguished between freedom OF and Freedom FROM religion.

In a democracy of mostly religous people, there will certainly be an influence of religion. IMO you can't have freedom from religion (the opinion of the majority) unless you scrap the idea of democracy.

And just who`s going to enforce that someone doesn`t have freedom FROM religion?

Who is going to be the "faith tester",or the religious police?

Who's going to? In the U.S. the cops and courts based on constitutional law and treaties, and the cops, courts, and legislaturers, based on regular law.

Saying this makes for "faith testing" and "religious police" doesn' t make it so; it merely makes religious propaganda.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 162

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/9/2007 4:38:40 PM

Petronius

Posts: 289
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

It boils down to there are no laws that prevent prayer in schools, however there are laws that prevent state sponsored prayer or any form of mandated prayer.

If children are given personal time and they want to pray during that time there is nothing that anyone can do about it as long as it is noncoercive on others.

That's simply not true. We have laws for such things as sexual and racial harassment as well as religious ones. Children can certainly pray and get nailed for harassment based on the syle and content of the prayers.

There are no exceptions to broad generic rules for prayer. A student can stand up on a desk during "personal time" and demand that God smite the Jews as Christ killers but when they get nailed for harassment, they can't validly claim a religous right to have done so.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 163

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/9/2007 5:41:30 PM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

Freedom from religion to me means exactly that, one can live their life without being preached to by another about things which may or may not exist.Also one can live without a concern or interest in anything other than themselves in their present time, that is if they can think only to themselves.I have no religion,but a spirituality peculiar to myself, I have beliefs I know few will agree with, but that does not matter,I accept and enjoy what I have.I may comment on aspects of faith, but not my own belief.My spiritual base prevents the preaching to others and I stand by that.If others are interested,I may point someone towards various literary sources from which they can make their own decision and there find their own way.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 164

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/9/2007 7:28:47 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Petronius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

It boils down to there are no laws that prevent prayer in schools, however there are laws that prevent state sponsored prayer or any form of mandated prayer.

If children are given personal time and they want to pray during that time there is nothing that anyone can do about it as long as it is noncoercive on others.

That's simply not true. We have laws for such things as sexual and racial harassment as well as religious ones. Children can certainly pray and get nailed for harassment based on the syle and content of the prayers.

There are no exceptions to broad generic rules for prayer. A student can stand up on a desk during "personal time" and demand that God smite the Jews as Christ killers but when they get nailed for harassment, they can't validly claim a religous right to have done so.

which laws are those? Are you from the us btw?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Petronius)

Post #: 165

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/9/2007 9:28:55 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I will make the claim there is a green elephant in your living room if I like, but there isn't. You see I do not discuss like many of you, were you assume a lie and have to prove the truth afterwards. To me it is the difference between a constructive arguement and the pontification I see from those that wish to argue to score points.

I will give you a small clue, to help with your impotent googling:

2000-NOV: TX: Kerr High School, Houston: The principal threatened to suspend 30 students if they prayed during lunch hour. She suggested that they pray either before or after school hours.

If you are too lazy to do the search yourself, stop blaming me.

Just below my post is this little hyper command named "block". I think it will help the both of us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

The courts uphold it when they are taken to court. But the extreme views are there and influencing the decisions. Make the statements clear to the school officials and the students. Creating small brochures would be easy. Let them have their private prayer and then tell those that want somethem official to move to a country that supports official prayer in the schools, like Iran.

Orion

Nope. Show me a case that was actually litigated or don't make the claim.

Just spent a while googling for this supposed lawsuit. Can't find it. Can't even find a first hand account of the event. Every reference on the web leads back to a cair-net.org PDF that appears to be no longer on that site.

So I still don't see any actual litigation where schools denied a student the right to pray. You're still claiming such exist and I'm saying that I keep abreast of this issue and not only have I never heard of a single case but that extensive research done by me has not found a single such lawsuit. So put up or shut up.

As to me blocking you, why? I'm not the one make claims he can't support.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 166

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/9/2007 10:18:09 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

Took me about 60 seconds to pull up the easiest one http://www.religioustolerance.org/ps_praf.htm

Now look to the towns these occured in and the local papers that would have carried the stories. I am not going to continue to do your research for you because you are unable to. Within another 30 seconds or so I got this one http://sitemaker.umich.edu/arabamericansandramadan/praying_in_public

Maybe try a meta search engine, news search engines, and legal search engines.

Orion

edited to add: I never said it was a lawsuit, I said it occured. Pay attention. There have been injunctions filed, if you really want to see them look for them. As to your comment to put up or shut up. I choose neither. Sit and twist if it makes you feel better.

< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 10/9/2007 10:20:18 PM >

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 167

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/9/2007 10:43:18 PM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You show your ignorance by making a blanket statement about over 4000 religions. Again I state, you are making statements based upon what you believe that you know.

I also said you should prove love based upon something you said, and you never responded to that.

Absolutes are usually absolutely wrong.

Now a person believes in a religion or they don't, they believe in a set of beliefs or they don't. Some people clain Bhuddhism isn't a religion but a philosophy because some for Bhuddist sects it is more of a way of life than a truth. If a religion doesn't believe in a truth, I'm not sure it fits the definition of religion (see below), it fits more the definition of philosophy.

As for being ignorant about 4,000 religions being wrong. If all 4,000 fit the definition of what a religion is, then at least 3,999 are wrong.

As for you saying I should prove love based upon something I said and I never responded to that, this is the entireyl of what you wrote and I responded to.

Ahhh we must be substituting the word religion for any Abrahamic faith. There are many different religions. Have you ever asked a Taoist about God?

1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 168

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/9/2007 11:25:43 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Actually he is. There have already been several cases of students accused of "praying" in school, and told they could not do that. Try google and you will find some really absurd things on both sides of this debate.

I'm well aware that a small number of cases of such have occured and am also aware that in all those cases the school official involved was misinformed of the law and was quickly corrected. After a great deal of research I've not found a single case that ever went before a judge much less an appelate court. Too bad that when a public school violates their students rights the other way such reasonableness is so often not on display.

One case that feeds the notion that 'students can't pray in schools' is this one.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/19/scotus.schoolprayer.02/index.html

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 169

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/9/2007 11:48:01 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

If you want students to be able to pray without restriction, you're going to have to give the students ALL the Rights.

You won't be able to just shake them down, but will need a warrant to go through their personal effects, ( or a search subsequent to a lawful arrest... ), and other Constitutional protections.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 170

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/10/2007 5:01:42 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Took me about 60 seconds to pull up the easiest one http://www.religioustolerance.org/ps_praf.htm

which sources the cair-net.org PDF.

quote:

Now look to the towns these occured in and the local papers that would have carried the stories. I am not going to continue to do your research for you because you are unable to. Within another 30 seconds or so I got this one http://sitemaker.umich.edu/arabamericansandramadan/praying_in_public

Which sources religioustolerance.org which as I've already pointed out sources cair-net.org which no longer has the PDF in question anywhere I can find.

quote:

Maybe try a meta search engine, news search engines, and legal search engines.

Orion

edited to add: I never said it was a lawsuit, I said it occured. Pay attention. There have been injunctions filed, if you really want to see them look for them. As to your comment to put up or shut up. I choose neither. Sit and twist if it makes you feel better.

You didn't? In post #143 you are quite explicit in the claim, writing "The courts uphold it when they are taken to court" which is why I'm asking for evidence that such has ever happened.

Your hostility to being asked to support a claim is somewhat puzzling, is it your contention that reality is what ever you believe it is or your claims are simply Rushisms and have no relation to facts?

quote:

ORIGINAL:Alumbrado
One case that feeds the notion that 'students can't pray in schools' is this one.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/19/scotus.schoolprayer.02/index.html

But this case is one where a school approved religious message was transmitted over school owned loudspeakers. Clearly inappropriate.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 171

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/10/2007 6:27:17 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

That case is one in which the students initiated and led prayer with the tacit approval of the school.

What are you looking for? A case where a school sued a student for praying? The complaint typically comes from other students or outside groups.

But the evidence that the courts uphold the separation of church and state regarding prayer in school is right there, for anyone who wants to see it.

In other words, 'freedom from religion' trumps 'freedom of speech' in that context.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 10/10/2007 6:36:55 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 172

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/10/2007 6:45:06 AM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Not sure what you are googling because I found many referenced by using Student Prayer Denied. I then used School Private Prayer and found a few others. You can discount it if you like, but I have nothing to prove. Disprove my statements if you wish.

Orion

Your position is pretty much untenable. I haven't been able to find anything to support it. The establisment clause does not prohibit a solitary from engaging in prayer at school, but he many not be able to disrupt class by praying out loud.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 173

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/10/2007 6:51:51 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

The point isn't the disruption, the point is the religious content.

If a school endorses the message, they are in violation of the Constitution.

Schools are free to allow all sorts of non-religious messages and exercises that may distract or even offend some students.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 174

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/17/2007 2:10:04 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

which of course shows religion is being singled out, and eventually leads us into thought policing if taken to the end game.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 175

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/17/2007 6:02:29 PM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

Woah!!!!! I am in agreement with Real on this one. Very well said Real.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 176

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/17/2007 8:52:53 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

So you agree that the practical applicaton of the Constitution, as it is currently applied, is to provide people with the freedom from a religion getting government to endorse their message?

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 177

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/18/2007 1:47:46 AM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

Alumbrado, you are attempting to use "allow" and "endorse" interchangeably, not very honest.

Schools are free to allow all sorts of messages and exercises (both religous and secular) that may distract or even offend some students. But not allow participation to be mandatory, or even officially encouraged, under the current law and what is commonly called "freedom of Religion". What the OP is about and several including you (if I am reading you correctly) want to take it further into "Freedom FROM Religion", where if it is determined that the result of the democratic proces or the exercise of individual liberties has a religous overtone, it must be overturned or supressed.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 178

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/18/2007 2:22:58 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

Alumbrado, you are attempting to use "allow" and "endorse" interchangeably, not very honest.

Schools are free to allow all sorts of messages and exercises (both religous and secular) that may distract or even offend some students. But not allow participation to be mandatory, or even officially encouraged, under the current law and what is commonly called "freedom of Religion".

If a government entity gave permission for members of a religion to directly inflict their proselityzing on minors under the school's control, it would be a de facto endorsement.

quote:

What the OP is about and several including you (if I am reading you correctly) want to take it further into "Freedom FROM Religion", where if it is determined that the result of the democratic proces or the exercise of individual liberties has a religous overtone, it must be overturned or supressed.

Those 'several' are usually referred to as Supreme Court Justices. I understand the current reality, which says nothing about what I 'want' it to be.

Others have correctly identified the current situation in the US as one where freedom of religion includes a right to be free from it. That you do not like said situation, does not make those people dishonest... you should be holding up a mirror the next time you make that crack.

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 179

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/18/2007 4:54:37 AM

eyeh8f8

Posts: 58
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline

Religion as I have seen it started deal with gods and goddesess. Then it went to one god ideas. Once an establishment of writing and communication was put together amongst those that could take advantage of it to express their beliefs of what has been right and wrong. Most used stories about things that either happend, could of ahppened, happened but they didn't know what was going on, ect. It has all been about spreading beliefs, and the beliefs never gave any tolerance for change. If you look at Greek/Roman Mythology and The mainstream religions of today. All of the stories have points and morals. I watched something on the History Channel yesterday on Sodom And Gomora(spelling?) and Find it funny that people with far more religious experience/knowledge than anybody of have actually embraced science. Which some people whom are religious probably hate.

They found evidence to make somwhat of a case on a historical event which is depicted in the bible. We don't know if it happened the way the bible reads it and we don't if it happened that way. They also form a point that it could have ben due to war at the time or some kind of way that you would see "fire in the sky". Volcanoes are not really near there but are in the area(just not close enough) so that had no effect.

Another common Historical theory is that of the flood. History, in many places of the world, have placed a flood happening sometime. The known world to each area was limited so it may have seemed that you would be the last people the planet.. The fact is that there is no evidence that says this happened but there could be.

The ten commandments are also just a way of building a structure of right or wrong. I do believe that the fact that things were written later than they actualy happened gives religion less to go on because there is no full truth in it.

Jesus did exist, I admit it. The funny thing about Chrisianity is that at least the profit for Islam admitted the importance of somebody for a different religion was somebody of importance in religion and everything with it. Sure he came later but I never see anything having jesus noting that the Greeks presented good points with there beliefs. Maybe not their "Gods" but He is depicted as somebody whom never made mistakes, and never "sinned". Which really makes me wonder if half the things that are documented about him are true. For all we know: Da Vinci COed Might have some rlevance and a good point. After all the new testament was put together about 3 centuries after the death of Jesus , and about the same time period as the Romans became "Christians". Which makes me wonder if they didn't go to religion like they did, would the empire have gone down as fast?

Also the only faith that American society can be credited is Mormons. Which have gotten a lot of crap from the Regular Christian Faith about there beliefs. Of course now Warren Jeffs started his little even more extremist cult version of it. Which is a whole different story of how religion and beliefs can be used to corrupt.

The main cause of Turmoil in the middle east is the thought of "Holy War". To my knowledge not al of them believe that is happening but Radical groups insist it is. Again they are using religion. The problem that I have with Israel is that we support them mostly because of Religion. Jews are usually(due to Christianity and Jewish faith)reffered to as "Chosen". Which is why they haven't had such a great time in society. The idea of chosen people usually is reffered towhen talking about supremeist groups and most notably: Nazi's. The KK owes it's start to slavery but has upheld it's society because religion has played a role in their beliefs also.

Ther is probably mre that I could add but once I think of it I will add it.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 180

Page: << < prev 7 8 [9] 10 11 next > >>

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Freedom -from- religion?

Page: << < prev 7 8 [9] 10 11 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.092