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Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 1:20:59 PM

luckydog1

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On a recent thread a post was made, "IMO,freedom of religon,also means freedom ~from~ religon".

What exactly does that mean? We are talking about bedrock constitutional rights here.

Does it mean others can't think they way they want? Isn't that demanding the right to controll other's minds?

Does it mean there can be no churches? If people want to get together, it is illegal?

Prayer (a form of speech) is illegal?

It seems to be absolute totalitarianism to me, but perhaps I am missing something.

What does "freedom from religion" mean?

Post #: 1

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 5:40:33 PM

Lashra

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Freedom from religion means my child doesn't have to pray in a public school. At my childs school they do have a Christian club and they do pray together which is fine, but we are not christians and I do not want her forced to pray. Freedom from religion should mean that our politicans are more concerned about the good (health care, crime, economics etc.) of all Americans rather than just the ones who are a part of their own particular religion. Freedom from religion means people shouldn't have their lives dictated to them based on religious grounds/texts. Freedom from religion means that our rights should be protected and not taken away because religion says that its wrong such as abortion or women/men rights.

People came to America to escape religious persecution and yet people who aren't a part of a religious group are persecuted for their beliefs. If you don't believe me ask the next Gay man or Lesbian that you pass.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to luckydog1)

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 6:58:22 PM

Owner59

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From the "no religious test" clause of the United States Constitution

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States

separation of church and state

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Lashra)

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 7:11:26 PM

DomKen

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Simple, your freedom stops at my nose. I will not try and force my lack of faith on you and you had better not try and force your religion onto me and mine.

That means no prayer in public school, no mythology taught as science, no discrimination in employment or housing based on faith or lack of faith and no more attempts to subvert this nation into a theocracy.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 4

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 7:13:39 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

What does "freedom from religion" mean?

It's not my phrase, so I can only guess what the author meant. Here are some possibilities:

-- Science teachers would be able to teach evolution without decades of harassment.

-- Decisions about stem-cell research would be made on the basis of scientific merit rather than to appease the religious elements of a politician's base.

-- A few verses in a 4,000-year-old text would not be the basis for denying gay/lesbian unions parity with heterosexual ones.

-- "God told me to" would not be advanced, much less accepted, as a rationale for invading a sovereign nation that posed no threat to us and landing the U.S. military in a quagmire.

-- Women would be able to make their own reproductive decisions without being at the mercy of strangers' beliefs about when human life begins.

-- Public health needs, rather than dogma, would determine the focus and content of efforts to prevent teen pregnancy.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 5

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 7:32:39 PM

OrionTheWolf

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How do you know if someone is praying? What if my religion requires me to say a prayer before meals? What if my religion requires I say a prayer before I stand? If it is something that is isolated to just a persons body, then how does it disturb someone else's rights?

If there is a law against prayer and school, and a kid admits to praying, should they ethically be turned over to the police?

The problem is that those that push for prayer in school, want to take it a step further and have organized prayer in school, which is different than an individual just keeping to themselves and praying. The ones against, don't even want to see a cross around someone's neck because the sight of it is apparently very offensive. So there are two extremes on each side, and the poor kid that wants to pass his exam, and say a little prayer is caught in the middle.

I believe there should be a law that states you are not allowed to put your emotion in my logic.

These arguements just show me that people will argue about night and day, because it all depends upon where you are on the Earth, the time and season.

Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 7:34:34 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

The problem is that those that push for prayer in school, want to take it a step further and have organized prayer in school, which is different than an individual just keeping to themselves and praying.

I think what the previous posters meant was organized, enforced prayer in schools.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 7

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 7:43:34 PM

onlyHisgirl

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as long as there are tests in school...there will be prayers to whatever the kid believes in including the devil. Although i'm learning that Satan may not actually exist (i know, big shocker) and the devil didn't even evolve until later in the Bible closer to the new testament...but i digress...(aw, the joys of Theological Studies oh, shit..i got a paper on Joshua due so i gotta make this quick)

Anyway, i actually got into trouble at school for praying and i wasn't even praying..i was falling asleep but with my head bowed i looked like i was praying and got written up for "potential offense to my non-religious classmates". Whatever,.
you pray...i pray...you look away or meditate. Everyone needs to chill out on this, seriously.
Peace, Shalom, Blessed be ya'll
--oHgirl

_____________________________

When i am Owned: i am His girl only...only His girl

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Post #: 8

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 7:59:36 PM

Level

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Freedom from religion, to me, means freedom from coercion.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to onlyHisgirl)

Post #: 9

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 8:03:22 PM

philosophy

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..in my views the idea of freedom from religion has to be observed at the governmental level to be meaningful. It's no use having a right not to pray if the leader of your country makes decisions from a religious standpoint.

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 10

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 8:05:57 PM

Level

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That's impossible to achieve, phil. If a man or woman is religious, then that almost certainly is going to come into play.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 11

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 8:09:53 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Simple, your freedom stops at my nose. I will not try and force my lack of faith on you and you had better not try and force your religion onto me and mine.

That means no prayer in public school, no mythology taught as science, no discrimination in employment or housing based on faith or lack of faith and no more attempts to subvert this nation into a theocracy.

What gives people the right to "force" no prayer on those who want it?

No prayer in school discriminates against those who want to pray.

WHats wrong with those who want to pray in school praying and those who do not simply do not pray?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 12

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 8:47:08 PM

Owner59

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I beleive that freedom of religion(the most personal and intimate of our thoughts/feelings) ,also means to be left alone.

It also must mean ,that we also have the freedom to be godless,or undecided about god,and to be left alone about that too.

I also like Philosophy`s point,that our leaders should not make decisions from a religious standpoint.They should be made from a Constitutional standpoint.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 10/7/2007 8:51:27 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 13

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 8:51:35 PM

diphyes

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I spent most of my life to this point as an atheist, and I sat through many church services in the name of polite company and broadening my own knowledge of systems of belief that were alien to me. I never tipped my head for a public prayer, nor said Amen to a Christian-biased blessing [depending on who spoke it, of course - a blessing is a blessing, until it's weighted with garbage for Yahweh, in which case it palpably becomes dead air]. And now that I've found the principles of Paganism to be close to my heart, and the belief system it entails as speaking to my spirit in a way I thought nothing ever would, I am deeply spiritual, and I pray in my own way; but I keep my prayer in my own head and heart, which should be enough for anyone.

_____________________________

Many are the wand bearers;
I bear with me no sign;
Yet, I was mad, was drunken,
Ere yet I tasted wine;
Nor bleeding grape can slacken
The thirst wherewith I pine;
And the god, the true Iacchus,
Hears now this song of mine. - Edith Thomas

(in reply to Real0ne)

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 9:13:26 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I beleive that freedom of religion(the most personal and intimate of our thoughts/feelings) ,also means to be left alone.

It also must mean ,that we also have the freedom to be godless,or undecided about god,and to be left alone about that too.

I also like Philosophy`s point,that our leaders should not make decisions from a religious standpoint.They should be made from a Constitutional standpoint.

If you dig into the roots of our inalienable rights in the constitution they are rooted in judeao-christainity. To ditch the very roots of the constitution then claim to stick to the constitution is sort of an oxymoron.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 15

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 9:18:10 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: diphyes
I am deeply spiritual, and I pray in my own way; but I keep my prayer in my own head and heart, which should be enough for anyone.

I am an atheist but what is wrong with kids prying in whatever religion they want for a morning prayer in school and those who are not into it being silent? Its almost like people are afraid of the religion disease rubbing off on their kids LOL

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to diphyes)

Post #: 16

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 9:22:14 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
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Personally,I like and admire the Yankee tradition, of keeping one`s religion,a private matter.

Part of this tradition is to not be patronizing,or holier than tho.To not make judgments about, or put down another`s beliefs.And also,to never wear one`s religion on their shirt sleeve,like a merit badge,or on one`s lapel,like a medal.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 10/7/2007 9:23:04 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to diphyes)

Post #: 17

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 9:25:51 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Personally,I like and admire the Yankee tradition, of keeping one`s religion,a private matter.

Part of this tradition is to not be patronizing,or holier than tho.To not make judgments about, or put down another`s beliefs.And also,to never wear one`s religion on their shirt sleeve,like a merit badge,or on one`s lapel,like a medal.

Well making a schol policy that everyone must pray is discrimination against non and other religions, banning it is dicrimination against all religions, letting the kids choose to or not to participate violates no ones rights.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/7/2007 9:33:56 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 18

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 9:36:35 PM

DomKen

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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Simple, your freedom stops at my nose. I will not try and force my lack of faith on you and you had better not try and force your religion onto me and mine.

That means no prayer in public school, no mythology taught as science, no discrimination in employment or housing based on faith or lack of faith and no more attempts to subvert this nation into a theocracy.

What gives people the right to "force" no prayer on those who want it?

No prayer in school discriminates against those who want to pray.

WHats wrong with those who want to pray in school praying and those who do not simply do not pray?

Silent unorganized unsanctioned prayer in school is fine with me and the Constitution. However as soon as moment of silence or before school bible clubs get involved it becomes a way of identifying outgroups and once identified the abuse can begin.

I was publicly an atheist in middle and high school, in the late 70's into the 80's, and I was attacked both verbally and physically on several occasions over it, once on Good Friday because "my kind" had killed Jesus which surprised me even as I was introducing this young man to the pavement. In my sophomore year the student body president suddenly started reading "inspirational messages" in place of the previous mandatory moment of silence. At first it wasn't anything overtly xtian but within a month it was bible verses right out of the KJV. It took a cease and desist letter from the ACLU to get this shoving of religion down my throat stopped. Afterwards I found that I had been suddenly demoted from the gifted ed program to the "basic" education section. Another ACLU letter on the laws against retaliation later I was encouraged to transfer to another high school.

So IMHO keep any and all identifiable religious observations out of public school. It's not just the right thing to do it is the law.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 19

RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 9:41:32 PM

Real0ne

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i was not aware that it was a law? got a cite for that?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 20

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