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RE: Abuse Abuse Abuse - 7/27/2005 8:25:10 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		Don't hold your breath waiting for an appology, whoever you are. The only thing you've done is spend a lot of time demonstrating a lack of communication skills. What I said stands. You made two statements comparing elements of this lifestyle to abuse. That was a bad idea to begin with. You chose to phrase it in a way, that as written, can easily be read either as stating D/s power dynamics arguably are abuse or, as you say, abuse can be about power dynamics. The same applies for your second statement regarding BDSM. As such I made the statement, and stand by it, that was a poor choice of words as well as wording. You want to argue on a point of grammar that what you said was merely comparing that abuse can involve the same power dynamics and phyisical force as what we do in this lifestyle. For the sake of argument I'll concede you the point, chiefly because even given that there is still a problem with your statement you can't escape on rules of grammar. The larger point you still seem to be missing is this; in a debate about the lifestyle and abuse, where there seems to be so much confusion about what does and doesn't constitute abuse within the lifestyle, how does actually comparing abuse to the lifestyle help? Answer, it doesn't, in merely confuses the issue further. So again, I reiterate, next time think more carefully before you hit send. What is needed is clearer contrast between abuse and the lifestyle, not a comparison that blurs the lines or at minimum leaves were those lines are in question.

Now on to a second point. You stoop to an "8th grade grammar lesson," name calling, insults and personal attacks as part of your rebuttle. The only 8th grade behavior in this is yours. You claim you thought I was a pretty smart guy, I have no idea, I don't know you and to my knowledge have never spoken with you before. There was nothing personal in this to me or against you; I objected to your remarks, not you, nor did I insult you or call you names. If you really believed this was a misunderstanding and misrepresentation of your words you could have emailed me and discussed it. Had you done so, instead of resorting to a personal attack, this might have gone very differently. Or you could have taken a que from Faramir, who was flamed, and responded in a calmer, more rational, more constructive way. As it stands, the only thing you've convinced me of is that you are a rude, hateful, arrogant and emotional individual. If you choose to persist in these personal insults, I'll simply ignore you and leave you to the moderators to deal with. I'm not interested in an email from you at this point, so don't bother. So far as I am concerned you have two choices, you've said your piece so drop it and move on with your life, or continue your petty attacks until the moderators remove you. I could care less which you choose.

As for my remarks, they stand as written. I have and will continue to object to anyone who wishes to compare what we do in this lifestyle to abuse. I will object to those things I believe either confuse those who need clarity, or open the door for attacks on the lifestyle. Such objections generally are not, and in this specific case were not, a personal attack. If some can't be adult enough to accept that people will disagree with them or object to their choice of words without resorting to petty name calling and childish remarks... well... I've been called worse things in my life. In short, I still object to your choice of words and your choice to compare abuse to elements of this lifestyle for the reasons I've given above. If you choose to take that as a personal attack, and to respond with insults, that's your choice. But you'll have to try a lot harder than that to ruffle my feathers.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to kyakitten)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Abuse Abuse Abuse - 7/27/2005 9:04:08 PM   
kyakitten


Posts: 145
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline 		deleted


< Message edited by kyakitten -- 10/5/2005 8:25:38 PM >

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 42
Actual Study about Abuse Prevalence - 7/27/2005 9:28:46 PM   
kyakitten


Posts: 145
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline 		And in hopes of getting this thread back on track:

"Guy Baldwin, keynote speaker at Leather Leadership III, and a prominent leatherman psychiatrist, found that an unusually high percentage of his SM-practicing patients had suffered abuse as children. "

This statement turns up in an oh-so-timely and interesting presentation called "Civility and Incivility in the Scene" (http://www.io.com/~ambrosio/manners/chrism01.html), but I haven't been able to track down the original Baldwin source yet. Anyone got it?


< Message edited by kyakitten -- 10/5/2005 9:21:46 PM >

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Abuse Abuse Abuse - 7/27/2005 9:51:57 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyakitten

Padraig,

You claim you did not insult me. On the contrary, you assaulted my intelligence in your first response to my post and my integrity in the second.


So disagreeing with your choice of words is assaulting your intelligence? With a skin so thin I marvel at how you survive day to day life. If having your "intelligence assaulted" offends you so much, I would imagine the average TV commercial must drive you positively out of your mind.

quote:

Yes, I "stooped" to implying you have an eighth grade reading comprehension level in my original response, which was the harshest thing in this so-called "personal attack" unless of course you think it's "rude, hateful and arrogant" to say I used to believe you were smarter. I removed it within half an hour (well before you posted this). In contrast, you clearly prefer to leave outright mistakes up to do damage permanently rather than admit you're wrong. Then you go on to flame the people you've wronged.


Actually you made a number of insulting remarks, I'm not going to rate them as to which was the harshest which isn't the point, though its a pity I didn't copy your post to have them for the record. The point was, in neither of my two original posts did I choose to call you names or resort to insults... in fact, I still haven't. You edited your post while I was making mine, I took a half hour because I did carefully consider my words. Then found it rather amusing to discover that after making an inflamatory post aimed directly at insulting me you choose to remove it for something milder. That rather makes my point about considering what you write before you hit send, or are you going to refuse to concede at least that? As for flaming you, that I have not done. As I've said, I've not called you names, not made personal attacks, not resorted to treating you like a child... these are all things that characterize your outbursts directed at me. You have made repeated personal attacks against me for having disagreed with what you wrote and your choice of words, and yet insist you are the person who has been wronged. That is precisely why you have left me with the impression that you are a rude, hateful and arrogant person. An impression you continue to reinforce.

quote:

As to the propriety of talking about abuse in relation to BDSM, get a clue. It's likely because of shared characteristics that the frequency noted by the OP exists - which is what I stated in my original post. This community cannot and should not avoid real issues just because certain people can't comprehend complex ideas or sophisticated grammar.


Your petty insults (again) asside, it was not discussion about abuse in relation to the lifestyle I objected to. To repeat myself yet again, it was comparing abuse to the lifestyle that I objected and still object to. If you want to disagree with me that's fine by me. Others have disagreed with me in these forums before, yet somehow we managed to avoid name calling, insults and flames. Just a few days ago someone misinterpreted something I wrote and I did not realize it till that person made a critical remark of me in another thread. Rather than insulting and flaming this person I chose to email them and sort it out privately. I did not however, publicly insult them, attack them, or flame them. Amazingly enough we managed to sort it out and went on to have a lengthy discussion we both enjoyed. My point being that misunderstandings happen, but there are more constructive and mature ways to deal with them than the route you have chosen. That's your perrogative, but if you believe you are somehow hurting me by continuing in your fruitless insults, I can assure you you are not.

Now would you like to drop this whole ridiculous tirade or do you feel the need to persist? Tell you what, if I let you have the last word, will that make you happy or is it your inclination to continue regardless?

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to kyakitten)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Abuse Abuse Abuse - 7/30/2005 4:44:01 AM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline
Once again into the fray. Faramir never did exxplain why He won't descibe a GOOD Dom or Master as a way to assist women (and men) in their search. i will tell You what i seek; intergrity, compassion, kindness, not bigotted, votes, never raises His voice in anger, is faithful; confidant; financially responsible; loving, has a sense of humor, sexy (to me).

An abusive man can NEVER be a Dom or Master in my opinion. So any discussion of an "abusive Dom" is just ill-informed. i'm also curious at the way Padriag was flamed without any effort to understand Him; simply for making some points. There is (should not be) an Us Against Them mentality..only a commonality of desire to protect all our ppl from abusive men. We then have this damned thread from Faramir claiming abuse is over-reported; He's sick of hearing about it, etc. It's like being in the 13th century and listening to some man tell me he's sick of hearing about the Plague.

Faramir..the threads are well-titled; so You do not have to read one more word about abuse if You do not want to -- it's pretty obvious what You really object to is my writing about it, whether You read it or not..and You have no basis for such an objection. i can post as i see fit w/i the guidelines. Your efforts to control the abuse discussion occurring among other people is very strange.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 7/30/2005 4:48:46 AM >

_____________________________



(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Abuse Abuse Abuse - 7/30/2005 8:48:34 AM   
junkyard


Posts: 107
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
I'll repeat something Jay Wiseman wrote...
quote:

SM play is always consensual. Abuse is not.
SM players plan their activities to minimize the risks to one another's physical and emotional well-being. Abusers do not.
SM play is negotiated and agreed to ahead of time. Abuse is not.
SM play can enhance the relationship between the players. Abuse cannot.
SM play can be done in the presence of supportive others, even at parties given for this purpose. Abuse needs isolation and secrecy.
SM play has responsible, agreed upon rules. Abuse lacks such rules.
SM play may be requested, and even eagerly desired, by the submissive. Nobody overtly asks for abuse, although self destructive people may sometimes attempt to provoke it.
SM is done for the consensual erotic pleasure and/or personal growth of both or all participants. Abuse is not.
SM play can be stopped in an instant, at any time, and for any reason when the submissive uses a safeword. The victim cannot stop their abuser in that way.
In SM play, the dominant always keeps their emotions under control. An abuser's emotions are out of control.
After SM play, the submissive often feels grateful towards the dominant. A victim never feels grateful for abuse.
SM players do not feel they have the intrinsic right, by virtue of their gender, income or other external factors, to control the behavior of their partners. Abusers often do.



Hey, I like Jay's stuff and I have even recommended his book elsewhere in these forums BUT his ideas are merely a good place to start, not the end all and be all of the scene. I actually can't agree with many of the above statements unless the word "usually" is added into the BDSM part of each of the comparisons. As in "SM players usually..." or "SM is usually..." or even "SM play can usually..."

Let's just take the first statement: "SM play is always consensual." I would say "SM play is usually consensual." When I take someone on as my submissive I feel out the general expectations, feel out what some call "hard limits" and so forth. Early on in play, I may routinely ask a submissive if she is alright during play and I may allow her a safeword. After a time however, the nature of play will tend to run a course based on what I have learned and most generally without a safeword. I expect my submissive to accept certain things because it is in keeping with where I think our experiences should go. If I stray beyond the bounds of what they might have agreed to up front, I expect the sub to endure it. It is my view that when you really get to know someone you learn things about them they either don't know or don't even want to know about themselves. And if you are skilled, you show them the mirror of experience.

I just think that's reality. Jay's ideas are a great place to start but if you play hard you can't meet most of those expectations - maybe you don't even want to. And playing extra hard against the edges doesn't make it abuse, it just means you play extra hard against the edges. Some might say that consent was a component of early play and it therefore carries through to later play. I am more boldly truthful than that, I say that consent is a factor in building trust and that later play is a new frontier without strict adherence to any rules of any kind - at least it is for me. I imagine that some people would therefore not choose to play with me, because I warn them about the "no man's land" of play I like to reach. At no time can we consider such a warning and acceptance of the warning to be the equivalent of informed consent because the parameters of some of my edge play remain unknown (even to me before I pursue an act).

I don't know what everybody else will think of this post, but I think some people will read this and think I am clueless while others will read it and think that what I have stated here matches their own experience. My comment is not based on fantasy, but upon my own real life experience. I don't expect anyone to co-sign it, but I will personally stand behind it as truthful - as honest as I can make it.

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Abuse Abuse Abuse - 7/30/2005 1:11:44 PM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline 		Without nitpicking jun, what you describe in your first paragraph may not be explicitly consensal, in the sense of not being openly asked for or cleared, but it is within a framkework of consensuality - it is consensual non-consent. The specific activities have the appearance on being non-consensual, but within the larger framework of a relationship it is consensual.

(in reply to junkyard)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Abuse Abuse Abuse - 7/30/2005 3:04:26 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		If you go to a skateboarding forum, you'll probably find lots of posts about skinned knees. Every human endeavor has its attendant risks. The risk of abusing power, or being abused by someone with power over you is, along with the risk of disease transmission and physical injury, a risk of engaging in BDSM. Stands to reason people in a forum like this are going to talk about it.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Abuse Abuse Abuse - 7/30/2005 6:16:18 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
Padrig - without wishing to become involved in your discussion with kya and visa versa - from anothers point of view(mine) - I would suggest that maybe what you have read in kyas posts, you may have pulled out of context. It's always worth to read the entire context of a post rather than just take a couple of statements to affirm your thoughts on what was posted.

Forgive me is I am wrong, kya - and please correct me if I am - but what is being said that technically BDSM is about abuse - but should not be and is not abusive. Well that is what was clear to me, at least.

Just my view.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Abuse Abuse Abuse - 7/30/2005 9:53:04 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Just a reminder that "stop you mutha f*cker or I'll call the police" is generally an effective safeword (whether you've given it to her or not). Of course, a friend of mine swears that "herpes" is the most effective safeword she's ever had, and another swears by "projectile diarrhea".

A safeword is just a communication tool, and a rose by any other name would smell just as sweetly (projectile diarrhea excepted).

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 7/30/2005 9:57:48 PM >

(in reply to junkyard)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Abuse Abuse Abuse - 7/31/2005 4:04:58 AM   
lovingmaster45


Posts: 261
Joined: 9/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

"Guy Baldwin, keynote speaker at Leather Leadership III, and a prominent leatherman psychiatrist, found that an unusually high percentage of his SM-practicing patients had suffered abuse as children. "


I have been to Guy's presentation and he is a likable person and very bright; but I dismiss him and all psychobabble. Unless he or anyone else can show me ONE longitudinal study where the people who were "treated" ( you pick the psycho treatment) fared better than the control group who were just left the hell alone, I will not be paying much attention to what they have to say.

I spent 26 years (professor of sociology) debunking this psychobabble crap; but it makes everyone feel so good that it will not die.

_____________________________

Master Jerry


(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Abuse Abuse Abuse - 7/31/2005 5:55:52 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Hey, how's that Scientology working for you?

John

(in reply to lovingmaster45)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Abuse Abuse Abuse - 8/3/2005 3:43:32 PM   
MasterTemujin


Posts: 42
Joined: 5/2/2005
Status: offline 		Bravo caitlyn you are doing a very fine job of holding your own...

R/S,

Master Temujin

(in reply to kyakitten)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Abuse Abuse Abuse - 8/4/2005 8:09:58 AM   
domm4subf1970


Posts: 64
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		hmmm ok next question please.

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Abuse Abuse Abuse - 8/4/2005 8:25:06 AM   
Fidelity


Posts: 192
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline 		Isn't paranoia "interesting"?

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Abuse Abuse Abuse - 8/4/2005 3:47:13 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Remember, it's not paranoia if everyone really IS out to get you.

John

(in reply to Fidelity)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Abuse Abuse Abuse - 8/4/2005 3:51:55 PM   
Fidelity


Posts: 192
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline 		I remember a girl who once told me her safeword was "Lawsuit."

How cute-and no doubt,effective as well.

Believe me,paranoia RULES in these circles Rover.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 57
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