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RE: Control with no self control? - 7/28/2005 5:54:49 AM

sudja

Posts: 155
Joined: 2/8/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kinq

Two schools of thought:

Can a person with a D personality really be a D, and hope to control others, if they are overweight and smoke?

School of thought one is that because they are D, they choose to indulge themselves, to hell with the world, etc.

The other school of thought is that if you are really a D, you are a strong person, you have the will to conquor a twinkie, have the power to stop smoking, or have the self-respect to never have started. You hit the gym, because the power of the body reflects the power of the mind/spirit.

I see more and more people who are larger and larger, and believe I have resolved the answer to this myself, but I would like to hear comments.

Of course they can be Dominant, in a D/s relationship, and be (what you would consider) overweight or have a habit of which you disapprove.

It's not about doing things any one particular way - it's having the mindset that things need to be done *your* way.

As for the "self-respect" thing - any weight standard is socialized, and absent health issues is a non-issue, or should be.

sudja

(in reply to kinq)

Post #: 21

RE: Control with no self control? - 7/28/2005 8:05:48 AM

pinkpleasures

Posts: 1114
Status: offline

My profile asks for a Man of integrity, compassion, kindness, not bigotted, does not raise His voice in anger, financially responsible, confident, etc. etc. Nowhere does it say "HWP" or any such thing. It does say i'd need to feel attracted...but what attracts me is such a myriad of things, most not knowable over the 'net. As it happens, i like big men (not obese); and since i smoke, i'd much rather my Dom or Master did too, so i wouldn't be pressured to quit; or if i were we'd quit together.

i do not find the qualities i seek linked in any way to one's physique or decision to smoke.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 7/28/2005 8:06:33 AM >

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Post #: 22

RE: Control with no self control? - 7/28/2005 8:18:13 AM

blackwolf99

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Joined: 3/15/2005
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My thoughts on this are more from the millitary mind set of, 'dont ask your troops to what you yourself would not do.' and 'lead by expample'

If you, yourself are not willing to stay in shape, eat right and so on, its pretty hypocritical of you to ask those that serve you to do so

< Message edited by blackwolf99 -- 7/28/2005 9:32:06 AM >

(in reply to kinq)

Post #: 23

RE: Control with no self control? - 7/28/2005 9:18:46 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blackwolf99

My thoughts on this are more from the millitary mind set of, 'dont ask your troops to what you yourself would not do.' and 'lead by expample'

If you, yourself are not willing to stay in shape, eat right and so on, its pretty hypocritical of you to ask those that serve you to so

Yup, and I wouldn't have it any other way! That IS the privilege of being an owner.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be a good example, in fact it's very admirable. HOWEVER, the entire point of Ds is that it's a double standard, he gets to do it and I don't. He gets to make rules for me and not follow them for himself.

(in reply to blackwolf99)

Post #: 24

RE: Control with no self control? - 7/28/2005 9:35:20 AM

blackwolf99

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Joined: 3/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

quote:

ORIGINAL: blackwolf99

My thoughts on this are more from the millitary mind set of, 'dont ask your troops to what you yourself would not do.' and 'lead by expample'

If you, yourself are not willing to stay in shape, eat right and so on, its pretty hypocritical of you to ask those that serve you to so

Yup, and I wouldn't have it any other way! That IS the privilege of being an owner.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be a good example, in fact it's very admirable. HOWEVER, the entire point of Ds is that it's a double standard, he gets to do it and I don't. He gets to make rules for me and not follow them for himself.

Actually I use the fact that I am willing to set the example, to be able able to ask those who serve me to at least try to work on improving their own lives.
I also go by the standard that what is good for the goose is good for gander, and visa versa. Example would be that I am poly, so my sub is allowed to be poly also, if it is her desire.

< Message edited by blackwolf99 -- 7/28/2005 9:38:54 AM >

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 25

RE: Control with no self control? - 7/28/2005 9:40:49 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blackwolf99
Actually I use the fact that I am willing to set the example, to be able able to ask those who serve me to at least try to work on improving their own lives.
I also go by the standard that what is good for the goose is good for gander, and visa versa. Example would be that I am poly, so my sub is allowed to be poly also, if it is her desire.

That is YOUR privilege, you get to have it YOUR way.

However, it would be just as acceptable if you kept her at home doing chores and went out to party. At least, in my relationship that's how it's set up- he has NO obligation to set the same standards for myself as he does for him.

(in reply to blackwolf99)

Post #: 26

RE: Control with no self control? - 7/28/2005 10:55:56 AM

domtimothy46176

Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
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When I was active-duty, we had a phrase for it: Power has its privilages. While I do believe I need to possess self-control, as well as many other qualities if I am to effectively manage others, my personal idiosyncracies, such as smoking, are simply part of the package. When I meet others who self-identify as dominant, I am dis-inclined to judge them for their weight.
Some folks have health issues that affect their weight, others seem perfectly content to be well-rounded. There have been posts from folks who simply enjoy smoking and many of us can cite examples of relatives who smoked for 70 years or more and died of old age without ever suffering any ill effects. Equating my personal preferences with a lack of self-control seems indicative of unfamiliarity with the issue of self-discipline as it applies to personnel management issues.
Specifically applied to D/s, M/s, O/p dynamics, the amount of self-control required is inversely proportionate to the compatability of the participants. Perhaps rather than using smoking and eating habits as a point of illustration, one would do better to point to the neccessity of having sufficient self-control to not become entangled with those who are incompatible with one's preferences, predilections and eccentricities. It would most certaintly be more enjoyable, in the long-term, than attempting to rid oneself of all one's favored vices.
Timothy

< Message edited by domtimothy46176 -- 7/28/2005 10:57:48 AM >

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 27

RE: Control with no self control? - 8/2/2005 9:15:25 AM

kinq

Posts: 2
Joined: 7/25/2005
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Thank you all for your comments. I appreciate them all. My favorite one references my worthiness for an alternative lifestyle, meaning that I'm not conforming to the standards of an alternative lifestyle.

This reminds me of my early years when I remember a bunch of Madonna Wanna-be's were interviewed. "Why do you all dress like Madonna?" "Because we want to express our individuality."

Standards for alternative lifestyles?

Again, thanks.

(in reply to domtimothy46176)

Post #: 28

RE: Control with no self control? - 8/2/2005 9:22:30 AM

LadyKim

Posts: 191
Joined: 11/11/2004
Status: offline

A quick lesson in bdsm..... there are as many different ways to participate in this lifestyle as there are people that participate. Just because something is not your 'bent or take' does not mean it isn't right for someone else.

Where your post indicates someone that smokes and is overweight cannot be a good dominant because they indulge in activities you deem out of control, someone else may say since males tend to follow their lower head before the one on their shoulders they can not be good Doms.

There is not a single person on this planet that is perfect, and thankfully..... perfection is not a requirement for being dominant. It is in our faults and flaws that we learn and grow; hopefully, a dominant will be smart enough to engage intelligent submissives that have more to offer than good looks and willingness to obey. Utilizing each individuals strengths in a relationship normally makes for a stronger and healthier relationship that challenges each person involved and helps them to grow.

(in reply to kinq)

Post #: 29

RE: Control with no self control? - 8/2/2005 9:53:05 AM

Fidelity

Posts: 192
Joined: 8/1/2005
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I see overindulgence that leads to health issues as a sign of weakness.

I see lack of emotional self control as childish.

And lack of personal responsibility and accountability as foolish.

It matters not which side of the whip one is on.

Lack of self control is simply,weak.

(in reply to kinq)

Post #: 30

RE: Control with no self control? - 8/4/2008 7:29:18 AM

kittengirl22

Posts: 4
Joined: 6/9/2008
From: The South
Status: offline

quote:

Wait.. Im not a dom, I don't have to worry!!! haha. Ut oh... then again. Master doesn't look like a body builder. Do I dare tell him he has no control because he doesnt go to the gym? does Martial arts count? ^.^

This is what annoys me. I am one of those people that expects my potential suitors to have enough self control that they enjoy being physically fit, don't smoke, rarely drink (I can't stand alcoholics and don't want to be around someone who makes a habit of drinking that can lead to problems), and are intelligent. Being financially secure for himself is a big plus, but I don't care if he owns a huge house with a ten car garage or not.

Am I saying everyone needs to be this way? No. It annoys me when people make comments like the above. Is your choice better or worse than mine? No. Do my standards make me "narrow minded" person? No.
I met a dom who was grossly overweight. I looked past that because he was a very nice man and we got along great. I went to his house to visit and his house reaked of cat urine, there was trash litterally piled on the floor, his cats would vomit on the carpet and he wouldnt' clean it up. He slept on a couch that was falling apart with a pillow that was black because he never put a cover on it or washed it in any way. Was I supposed to lower my standards and put up with that because I don't want to be "narrow minded"? I know this example is extreme, but it's the experience that caused me to draw the line in the sand. To thine self be true - I will never be involved with someone who is lazy, doesn't clean up after himself, is completely disgusting just because he's nice to me. Do I expect perfection? NO. I am not perfect myself and I realize I'll be looking for forever if I was deluded enough to think something like that.

(in reply to tinkJH)

Post #: 31

RE: Control with no self control? - 8/4/2008 8:12:52 AM

Leatherist

Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline

Then again, I would have to wonder about someone who was totally in shape and drug free-but totally adrift in life otherwise.

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I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to kinq)

Post #: 32

RE: Control with no self control? - 8/4/2008 8:13:39 AM

fyreredsub

Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

i met a man once and i wondered why he was so overweight with his illness and shouldnt he be taking better care of himself and ignored this thinking

I learned he had no control over himself, his moods, his emotions,his budget, his anger, and his addictions...

and in the process of learning all this first hand and up close i almost had a nervous breakdown along with losing my credit, home and job and many personal possessions cause i believed in him and His mastery.

absolutely anyone, myself included, can be on their best behavior for calls, emails, visits, posts and on that ole puter screen

i knew this man for several years so .............ya never really know someone till ya live with them

but i do truly after this experience believe that there are idicators that should not be ignored

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to kinq)

Post #: 33

RE: Control with no self control? - 8/4/2008 8:18:38 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kinq

Two schools of thought:

Can a person with a D personality really be a D, and hope to control others, if they are overweight and smoke?

School of thought one is that because they are D, they choose to indulge themselves, to hell with the world, etc.

The other school of thought is that if you are really a D, you are a strong person, you have the will to conquor a twinkie, have the power to stop smoking, or have the self-respect to never have started. You hit the gym, because the power of the body reflects the power of the mind/spirit.

I see more and more people who are larger and larger, and believe I have resolved the answer to this myself, but I would like to hear comments.

Many examples of people with little to no self control setting themselves up in positions to control others, parents, petty tyrants in the work place, politicians, etc. No reason why the BDSM world shouldn't have its fair share of that, and its fair share of attendant denial and excuses.

(in reply to kinq)

Post #: 34

RE: Control with no self control? - 8/4/2008 8:22:47 AM

SimplyMichael

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Joined: 1/7/2007
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What if I prefer twinkies to being thin? What if I prefer mess to order? What if I decide smoking is the one weakness I will allow myself?

Plenty of thin people with clean orderly houses who don't smoke are completely unhappy dysfunctional disasters and plenty of fat people with messy houses smoke and are completely happy.

You are making the assumption that everyone who has will power, everyone who has mastered themselves has the same goal and that is clearly a falsehood.

No body's life is perfectly mastered, one chooses what to focus on and what to let go. Some choose career but let their family life suffer, others put family above career. Some choose to spend their life in the gym, others in a library.

The problem comes in when they lack clarity as to what their goals are and fail to move themselves in that direction.

(in reply to DublinSwitch)

Post #: 35

RE: Control with no self control? - 8/4/2008 8:26:55 AM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
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I was getting all worked up about something in this thread, and then a thought occurred to me: Are the twinkies back from when this thread was fresh, 3 years ago? Do twinkies get stale?

Cali

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 36

RE: Control with no self control? - 8/4/2008 8:28:42 AM

urlittleprincess

Posts: 149
Joined: 12/18/2007
Status: offline

hmmm...interesting post...ive encouraged my Dom to be more health conscious and for the last year He has talked about going to the gym, eating better etc but as ive told Him...words are words and proof is in the action...i can't control His eating or exercise choices but when i move in with Him i hope i can at least influence them. now i am going to have to ask Him why He doesn't dominate His bad habits!!!!

im not a health nut, but i watch what i eat and i run 5km, cycle and do some muscle toning activity daily...im not perfect in any way, but the exercise strengthens my body, mind and soul...(especially helps with pms!!) i discipline myself to this routine...no one else does it for me...and i would be lost without it. sure, i submit to the big mac attack or chocolate brownie on occaision, but i am stronger than my cravings! besides, if you exercise properly you can eat practically anything you want and not worry about it!

i worry more about the overall health implications that overweight has on anyone, rather than the esthestics. the viceral belly fat...the added strain to the cadiovascular system...the decrease in bone density, increased muscle atrophy...fat plaque in the heart arteries...and this all starts in childhood...but i digress...lol

(in reply to kinq)

Post #: 37

RE: Control with no self control? - 8/4/2008 8:29:07 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

quote:

ORIGINAL: blackwolf99
My thoughts on this are more from the millitary mind set of, 'dont ask your troops to what you yourself would not do.' and 'lead by expample'

If you, yourself are not willing to stay in shape, eat right and so on, its pretty hypocritical of you to ask those that serve you to so

Yup, and I wouldn't have it any other way! That IS the privilege of being an owner.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be a good example, in fact it's very admirable. HOWEVER, the entire point of Ds is that it's a double standard, he gets to do it and I don't. He gets to make rules for me and not follow them for himself.

I'm going to have to agree with blackwolf99 on this one. In my assessment, real leaders (not just doms, leaders of any type), lead from the front, not the rear. This has nothing to do with it being a double standard, it has to do with being a good leader and inspiring a sense of loyalty and trust in those that follow you. In fact, I smoked for 20 years and I stopped when I collared my wife for EXACTLY the reasons blackwolf99 mentioned.

Insofar as the choice of hedonism over health, I am perfectly fine with that as a conscious, intelligent choice, so long as the person in question does not impose the burden of that choice on others (for instance, via health insurance).

As a final comment, people are not perfect. I respect my father to the ends of the earth and would consider him (were he insterested in such things) to be a great dom for anyone. But he is also significantly overweight. In the end, you need to take the package deal.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 38

RE: Control with no self control? - 8/4/2008 8:38:43 AM

subsong

Posts: 77
Joined: 9/22/2005
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    My main issue with smokers , or dangerously overweight Doms is that I see them as a bad investment emotionally . I've lost several fanily members , due to their poor choices that resulted in preventable diseases , and I don't wish to set myself up for more heartache for those particular reasons .

   The other side of this , is that I am an active person , and when in a relationship I like to be able to share some activities with my partner - which frankly require a level of fitness .    I find health and fitness to be a major turn-on !

    Lastly - I find smoking to be gross on all levels - aside from the fact that it kills people that likely wouldn't die so soon otherwise - if they didn't smoke .

    These habits have nothing to do with people being good or bad ,  or Dom/mes being good or bad at domming - but I simply have my own preferences , and things that attract me - or not .

(in reply to kinq)

Post #: 39

RE: Control with no self control? - 8/4/2008 8:45:57 AM

kittengirl22

Posts: 4
Joined: 6/9/2008
From: The South
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

What if I prefer twinkies to being thin? What if I prefer mess to order? What if I decide smoking is the one weakness I will allow myself?

Plenty of thin people with clean orderly houses who don't smoke are completely unhappy dysfunctional disasters and plenty of fat people with messy houses smoke and are completely happy.

You are making the assumption that everyone who has will power, everyone who has mastered themselves has the same goal and that is clearly a falsehood.

No body's life is perfectly mastered, one chooses what to focus on and what to let go. Some choose career but let their family life suffer, others put family above career. Some choose to spend their life in the gym, others in a library.

The problem comes in when they lack clarity as to what their goals are and fail to move themselves in that direction.

I understand you're talking to the OP, but I feel I need to clarify here. My opinion of the original post is not that king was saying "these people are better than those" but that they were simply asking "what's your opinion on this train of thought?" I did not see anywhere that they said that everyone should conform to their opinions and ideals.

So what if you like twinkies? I don't care. I don't care if you're killing yourself with whatever you choose to put into your body or do to yourself.
By saying "What if I prefer twinkies to being thin? What if I prefer mess to order? What if I decide smoking is the one weakness I will allow myself?" are you really empowering yourself to continue doing whatever you see fit for your life or are you using excuses?
If you're perfectly happy being yourself and think you would be unhappy changing yourself (for the worse or better, it doesn't matter) then by all means continue doing whatever makes you happy. But it's obsured to expect everyone to be okay with your choices and conform to them regardless of your orientation.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 40

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