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An Earned Right - 7/27/2005 7:14:42 PM   
feline


Posts: 1101
Joined: 2/23/2004
From: CA
Status: offline 		I have a question for the masses.

Do you feel that someone should have to earn the right (through whatever means) to be called Master or Mistress?

Thank you for your time,




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Variety is the soul of pleasure.
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RE: An Earned Right - 7/27/2005 7:24:12 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Yes! I agree 100%. I have to this day only let a handful of people call me Mistress/Maîtresse.

I actually do not let people call me Mistress/Maîtresse. If they need to give me an honourific, it can be Miss/Mademoiselle.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: An Earned Right - 7/27/2005 7:25:18 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Oh wait!! I totally misunderstood your post.

I guess I would add that it goes both ways. Dominants need to earn the title too.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: An Earned Right - 7/27/2005 7:38:13 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: feline

I have a question for the masses.

Do you feel that someone should have to earn the right (through whatever means) to be called Master or Mistress?

I would say no. In order to earn that right, then there would have to be some objective standard of what qualifies as a Master, some sort of regulating committee, and some means of enforcing the right of only those who have earned it to use the title. Somehow I don't think that's going to happen, nor do I think you could even get people to agree on what standards or definition would be fair. In a an ideal world it might be a neat idea, but in the real world I don't see it working for anything larger than a specific club, House or other tight-knit organization. However, if you care to become part of one such, there are those who do indeed have that requirement.

Personally, the only person who's opinion concerns me of whether or not I really deserve the title of Master is my future slave, when I find her. I've never cared for joining the various groups because its been my experience in past dealings that they are often rife with personal politics. If I want my ability to influence others to be measured in a popularity contest... I'd become a politician.

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: An Earned Right - 7/27/2005 7:43:45 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Ok. I don't see feline's question referring to an official definition. I guess I see it more this way...

I know some Dominants who insist on being called Master or Mistress by everyone involved in WIITWD and that they need to earn being called that by others...

Am I still mixed up or did I get it right this time feline?

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: An Earned Right - 7/27/2005 7:46:03 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: feline

I have a question for the masses.
Do you feel that someone should have to earn the right (through whatever means) to be called Master or Mistress?

Thank you for your time,


They should not HAVE TO do anything. The Owner really doesn't put much stock in being called Master to begin with so he certainly doesn't feel it's something he has to do.

However, how else would a person come to be able to expect another to use that in deference to them?

In other words, I don't treat dominants any differently than I treat other people when I first meet them. And the ones I tend to get along with put more in their actual character than some title.

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RE: An Earned Right - 7/27/2005 7:56:38 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Hell Yes!!!!!!!! I have no right to demand anything from most people especially what they call me… Things tend to level out and those who chose to respect me may well refer to me a Master.

A sub/slave has no choice than to call his/her Master/Owner what he or she tells them to. Any Gorean Free expects any kajira to address him/her as Master/Mistress and kneel in his/her presence. But, that is part of being Gorean. To do other wise reflects badly on her owner.

In the Army, it was taught that you salute the rank and not the man. In fact I have met only a handful of officers who deserved to be saluted for themselves and sheesh didn’t the troops know it too. My grandmother used to tell me “You were born to rule. You have to earn the right to command!”


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: An Earned Right - 7/27/2005 8:03:20 PM   
LadySonelle


Posts: 280
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Santa Fe NM
Status: offline 		I was trained Old Guard. Then it was strongly felt that the title Master or mistress had to be earned. I served an internship as a sub/slave and was trained by several good Dominants in turn. I also studied on My own and learnt things that had not been available when I was beginning.

I feel that the right to an honourific ought to be earned, either by training under suitable persons or by hard work and self omprovement. After all, we serve as examples to our subs and slaves. I did not use the title Lady for the first five or six years of My experience. When it was finally besotwed I felt almost intimidated... To be a "Lady" or a Mistress, or a Ma'am or Master or Sir means that the slave at your feet looks to you as a Superior. The power and responsibility of such titles must be earned to be genuine.

I also feel that each new slave must know that My title of Lady has been earned and that s/he is welcome to ask questios

Lady Sonelle

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RE: An Earned Right - 7/27/2005 8:19:14 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

I was trained Old Guard. Then it was strongly felt that the title Master or mistress had to be earned. I served an internship as a sub/slave and was trained by several good Dominants in turn. I also studied on My own and learnt things that had not been available when I was beginning.

I feel that the right to an honourific ought to be earned, either by training under suitable persons or by hard work and self omprovement. After all, we serve as examples to our subs and slaves. I did not use the title Lady for the first five or six years of My experience. When it was finally besotwed I felt almost intimidated... To be a "Lady" or a Mistress, or a Ma'am or Master or Sir means that the slave at your feet looks to you as a Superior. The power and responsibility of such titles must be earned to be genuine.

I also feel that each new slave must know that My title of Lady has been earned and that s/he is welcome to ask questios

Lady Sonelle


Salute' M'lady, Salute'... Brava! Brava!

Stands and slaps left shoulder with right hand in a Gorean applause…

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to LadySonelle)
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RE: An Earned Right - 7/27/2005 8:36:05 PM   
Kinkypupper


Posts: 713
Joined: 9/26/2004
From: Portland oregon
Status: offline 		MOST definately.
TO demand such a thing does not show true respect but fear.


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Phil Moulton
A Sensual Touch
Locopony Racing
Portland Oregon

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RE: An Earned Right - 7/27/2005 8:46:17 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Ok. I don't see feline's question referring to an official definition. I guess I see it more this way...

I know some Dominants who insist on being called Master or Mistress by everyone involved in WIITWD and that they need to earn being called that by others...

Am I still mixed up or did I get it right this time feline?

- LA

She probably wasn't thinking of it that way. Maybe my logic is a few steps too far ahead. Tell me if this clarifies it.

The question was, should a Master have to earn the right to use the title. Lets assume the answer is yes.

Okay so next logical question, how do they earn that right? They'd have to meet some sort of generally accepted standard or qualifications. It has to be a standard accepted by the general community or else it had limited or no meaning. I made the statement I am only concerned with my future slave's opinion of whether I qualify, an example of a very limited meaning. It would mean something to her and to me, but no one else. Someone qualifying themselves (ie simply calling themselves that) is an example of it having no meaning. So if we want the idea to be applied in a way that has widespread meaning, most people would have to agree with the standards and qualifications used.

Next logical question, who sets those standards? The "community"? Who exactly is that... the BDSM community in general that can't agree on the definitions of most terms? A smaller sub section? An appointed committee?

The general community is not likely to agree on any standard definition, a smaller sub section doesn't have the right to impose its standards on the larger community, and an appointed committee would have to somehow be elected, but by whom and how?

Lets say for sake of argument that the general community could somehow agree on standards and qualifications.... who judges compliance with this, and who will enforce it when you have the inevitable wanna-be's and renegades that choose to use the title anyway?

That seems to pretty much stack the odds heavily against it ever working in the general community which leaves us with the smaller groups and sub-sections of the general community. There are, however, those smaller groups who do practice this, and do so successfully as an option for some. Its not that I object to the general idea, its that I don't think in practice it could be made workable.

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: An Earned Right - 7/27/2005 8:49:23 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		Since I subscribe to the theory that I have to have a submissive or own a slave to be called Mistress, I would hope that I had already earned the right to be called that by My boy(s).
As far as others calling Me Mistress, it happens all the time. I don't worry about it too much, except to remind them that I am not their "Mistress"and perhaps they will break the habit of addressing every Domme they run across as "Mistress".
There's a lot of confusion because the chatrooms are rife with those who demand the title and the groveling that goes along with it. I kind of hate the groveling part. That seems to be the harder habit to break.


_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


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RE: An Earned Right - 7/27/2005 9:35:53 PM   
blackwolf99


Posts: 30
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline 		Absolutely!

In fact in my world, only my collared sub/slave calls me Master. And it is a privledged earned by both Master and slave. For us it is a mater of showing of the earned mutual trust and respect and worth to serve and be served.

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RE: An Earned Right - 7/27/2005 9:42:02 PM   
blackwolf99


Posts: 30
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kinkypupper

MOST definately.
TO demand such a thing does not show true respect but fear.




I agree compleately with what you said but as a side note I am reminded of a this tidbit

When Al Capone was asked if he would rather be feared or respected, he said he would rather be feared, because it last longer.

-of course he didnt have slaves

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RE: An Earned Right - 7/28/2005 4:50:58 AM   
tinkJH


Posts: 180
Joined: 5/22/2005
Status: offline 		Master has always been Master. Since we began our relationship. Everyone else, that is different however. I don't address just anyone as Master, and who knows if I will. When I first get to know a dominant, I use their name. Eventually, as I begin to know them and even if I end up not liking them, then I will address them more formally with Sir, or Ma'am.

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RE: An Earned Right - 7/28/2005 4:54:23 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Tell me if this clarifies it.


It does clarify your point. But as you say, your point jumped a few steps ahead of the question.

My take on the point that you make is that it is irrelevant for me. I go by the beat of my own drum, so regardless of what a community would consider would be the makings of a Mistress, if my boy and I decided that he would call me Mistress, then he would! I need no one else's authority to live out my life as I please.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Padriag)
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RE: An Earned Right - 7/28/2005 5:21:25 AM   
ElektraUkM


Posts: 309
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline 		I think one question is: in what sense is the term 'Master' being used:

I think the majority view on the thread is taking 'Master' in the sense it is used in the term 'Master Craftsman' or similar. This use of the term implies a certain level of craft, ability or whatever ~ some thing 'above' a Dom (perhaps). It is in this sense that the idea of 'earning the right' to be referred to in this way is relevant. (but I agree with Padriag, that the problems of setting up objective standards are immense and probably impossible to overcome even if one wanted to)

There is also the way in which 'Master' can be used to refer to the 'owner' of something ~ in this case a sub or (more specifically) slave. One does not need to earn the right to use that title, I don't think ~ since one can be a pretty poor master, after all ~ no level of competence is assumed. I think the only argument about self-titling in this specific use of the word would be the one that says "if you don't own anyone, you can't be a master of anything".


~ Elektra

< Message edited by ElektraUkM -- 7/28/2005 5:22:49 AM >

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RE: An Earned Right - 7/28/2005 5:23:06 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

Tell me if this clarifies it.


It does clarify your point. But as you say, your point jumped a few steps ahead of the question.

Heh... sometimes I can't walk for leaping Like you, even if such a community standard did exist I'd end up one of the renegades doing it my own way, and for the very reasons you give. I think that probably applies to many dominants who identify as a Master or Mistress.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: An Earned Right - 7/28/2005 5:50:47 AM   
sparrow69


Posts: 10
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline 		my ex Mistress earned the right to be called that when she was good enough to except me as her sub, and if i find a new one it will be the same again

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RE: An Earned Right - 7/28/2005 6:10:16 AM   
sudja


Posts: 155
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: feline

I have a question for the masses.

Do you feel that someone should have to earn the right (through whatever means) to be called Master or Mistress?

Thank you for your time,





It's not something, a "title" that can (or at least, in my opinion, should) exist in a vacuum.

It designates a relationship as between two (or more) people, it's not a "position."

sudja

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