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RE: Some of Hillary Clintons Ideas - 10/12/2007 11:52:26 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Owner, what do you care about The Pants Suit Princess anyway?She's a Democrat

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Some of Hillary Clintons Ideas - 10/12/2007 11:54:42 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Have as good as possible time at work, Owner.

I usually don't spend much time on-line when not in the office, so I may or not get back to this over the weekend.

I MUST respond to at least one issue you raise - 'Tort Reform'. The similarity and complicity between the parties can no more be separated than a cold grilled cheese sandwich. Need an example look no further than the poster boy for the US legal industry John Edwards. However, it does point to the true power in the US - $$$ coming from PACs. In the case of civil system no 'reform' is possible regardless of the political party in charge. Too many of our "representatives" of either party are lawyers.

There is an inherent fallacy from the concept of "taking money from corporate America". It can't be done as long as there is still a foundation of capitalism. Raise the tax on corporate America and who do you think will pay for it? The consumer of the goods being produced. Go ahead - tax the oil industry an extra $0.25/gallon; do you expect you won't see a $0.30/gallon rise in your cost at the pump? It applies to any "corporate" entity.

Want to try it with very high income individuals and their purchases and that backfires too. Tax them and their purchases and you ruin the poor and middle class individuals supplying those 'high end' goods. Need an example? Look at the "luxury purchase" tax of the late 70's which destroyed the small boat industry.

Most at the high end of income can manipulate the impact of higher taxes. Both parties are aware of that, and use it to their advantage when talking with their constituency. "We're raising Corporate tax and reducing taxes on the individual!" The crowd cheers! What happens is that instead of using my personal card to pay for my car's gas - I use the corporate card. I reduce the corporate income and, as a result, pay less tax. Ultimately my combined personal and corporate tax bill may be less not more. Trust me that's only one example and I am a VERY minor player, but I "play".

Eliminating the entire tax system and replace it with a 10% 'consumption' tax on all goods would work, but then you'd have to address the millions of accountants, tax lawyers, estate planers, and the people working in the supporting industries who'd be unemployed. All those tax exempt institutions, such as religions and other 'charities' would also suffer. Those professions and institutions have much too powerful ($$$$) PACs to let that happen. The political party who happens to be in power will never go up against any of those entities. They never have and never will. They can't afford it.

Damn! You got me started and I still have about 5 hours to go before the weekend.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Some of Hillary Clintons Ideas - 10/12/2007 12:59:12 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		What does what he said, have to do with our GI's dying? Jesus freakin Christ, address the points instead of giving some political canned response. If you don't know. say you do not know. If you are going to support Hillary, then be proud and tell us why she is the best. instead the violin comments and such remind me of an amatuer David Brock.

You put alot of effort into the Neo-con and Busg bashing, I truly believe if you put that much effort into the positives of whatever candidate or ideas you support, you would actually convince people. Instead the vehemence with which you pose negative stuff, turns many readers off. This is just a suggestion, in sincerity and not a defense of Bush or the Non-cons.

You have the time, you have the passion, put it in the right direction and let's fix the freakin country.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

If your a neo-con,carry water for the neo-cons,or defend them,you can eat shit and die.


Trouble is, you define 'carrying water' as anyone who questions, or points out the identical behaviors, motives, and hypocrisy in the pseudo-libs.

Continuing this war is bad no matter whether Gore or Bush or Cheney or the Clintons get more profits out of it. 
Trampling the Constitution is bad, no matter which party is condoning it to eliminate opposition to their ends.

It is a twin-party system, and the players are interchangeable. 
When someone defends either side, they are defending the same venal behavior they decry in 'Them', as being OK, when it is done by 'Us'. 

And I ain't buying it, no matter who is peddling it.


Nice violin buddy.You fiddle,while our GIs die.

Must be nice,to be above it all.

Oh God, help us.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Some of Hillary Clintons Ideas - 10/12/2007 1:06:23 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		I would have no problem, as a business consultant, focusing more of my thoughts on how a company can cut expenses and increase revenues, rather than how many hoops to jump through to lower their taxes. My god, even the IRS doesn't even know how some of it works. BTW, until the IRS is finally abolished, make sure to keep every scrap of any paper that pertains to taxes, and if you are asked to come in for a pre-audit discussion, just bring 12 cases of documents for them to look at. Most auditors will pass, unless they really think you are doing something big wrong. Grrrrrrrrrr..... Now after someone mentioning the IRS I need my zanax. ;)

Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Some of Hillary Clintons Ideas - 10/12/2007 3:09:02 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado


Continuing this war is bad no matter whether Gore or Bush or Cheney or the Clintons get more profits out of it. 
Trampling the Constitution is bad, no matter which party is condoning it to eliminate opposition to their ends.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


yawn,......


Next?


Ahh yes, the sound of Owner 'winning' by refusing to address the points, hurling childish tantrums, and then running away. 

Thanks for revealing yourself to be no more of a liberal than the man in the moon, it makes it easier for the rest of us to disassociate ourselves from you that way.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 10/12/2007 3:11:46 PM >

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Some of Hillary Clintons Ideas - 10/12/2007 4:05:03 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Have as good as possible time at work, Owner.

I usually don't spend much time on-line when not in the office, so I may or not get back to this over the weekend.

I MUST respond to at least one issue you raise - 'Tort Reform'. The similarity and complicity between the parties can no more be separated than a cold grilled cheese sandwich. Need an example look no further than the poster boy for the US legal industry John Edwards. However, it does point to the true power in the US - $$$ coming from PACs. In the case of civil system no 'reform' is possible regardless of the political party in charge. Too many of our "representatives" of either party are lawyers.

There is an inherent fallacy from the concept of "taking money from corporate America". It can't be done as long as there is still a foundation of capitalism. Raise the tax on corporate America and who do you think will pay for it? The consumer of the goods being produced. Go ahead - tax the oil industry an extra $0.25/gallon; do you expect you won't see a $0.30/gallon rise in your cost at the pump? It applies to any "corporate" entity.

Want to try it with very high income individuals and their purchases and that backfires too. Tax them and their purchases and you ruin the poor and middle class individuals supplying those 'high end' goods. Need an example? Look at the "luxury purchase" tax of the late 70's which destroyed the small boat industry.

Most at the high end of income can manipulate the impact of higher taxes. Both parties are aware of that, and use it to their advantage when talking with their constituency. "We're raising Corporate tax and reducing taxes on the individual!" The crowd cheers! What happens is that instead of using my personal card to pay for my car's gas - I use the corporate card. I reduce the corporate income and, as a result, pay less tax. Ultimately my combined personal and corporate tax bill may be less not more. Trust me that's only one example and I am a VERY minor player, but I "play".

Eliminating the entire tax system and replace it with a 10% 'consumption' tax on all goods would work, but then you'd have to address the millions of accountants, tax lawyers, estate planers, and the people working in the supporting industries who'd be unemployed. All those tax exempt institutions, such as religions and other 'charities' would also suffer. Those professions and institutions have much too powerful ($$$$) PACs to let that happen. The political party who happens to be in power will never go up against any of those entities. They never have and never will. They can't afford it.

Damn! You got me started and I still have about 5 hours to go before the weekend.



Right and hence the gaduated "income" tax because in theory there is no escape and at some point even if its 10 years later with the disolution of the company they will nab ya for the profits when ya try and cash in.  Of course as long as you can put every penny back in and manage your growth/profit they are happy and dont kill you along the way, so you wing up living like a pooo man but you pay very little taxes if you are a good juggler and your biz has that sort of flexibility to allow you to do it in the first place.

When you pay taxes on income you cannot pass it along to your customers quite so easily as there is a point where you will no longer compete if you take it to the corp.

Consumption has been tried before and to make a long story short it does not work, (for long).  People simply stop buying and the very wealthy do not consume more than the poorest family yet has many times the disposable cash.  So you wind up with the pooo man spending everythign just to get by and the very wealthy who were paying 30% on their investment proceeds paying nothing!  (there is no consumption on a margin account.)

That and remember even the tax we ahve now started out as a 1% excise tax!!   Look what it is now!!  That and these people who buy into getting rid of the irs, well that is pure fantasy.   Who is going to do the accounting for the government?  I cant believe people honestly buy into that.

Mission creep will over time and a very short time I predict ensue and then everyone will be whining when their tax is right back where it is now at about 50%.

The solution is to recognize that everytime we create a gov agency the need to survive takes over so the grow and of course need more money.    Stop the government expansion, hence do a hugemonguous reduction in spending and our taxes will fall in line in the present system.

The fair tax is jumping from the grill onto the coals, but thats another page another day.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Some of Hillary Clintons Ideas - 10/13/2007 2:36:04 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

Eliminating the entire tax system and replace it with a 10% 'consumption' tax on all goods would work, but then you'd have to address the millions of accountants, tax lawyers, estate planers, and the people working in the supporting industries who'd be unemployed. All those tax exempt institutions, such as religions and other 'charities' would also suffer. Those professions and institutions have much too powerful ($$$$) PACs to let that happen. The political party who happens to be in power will never go up against any of those entities. They never have and never will. They can't afford it.



Public {only} financing of all political campaigns, measures and initiatives would end all that - For less than ten dollars per voter per year.



- R


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Some of Hillary Clintons Ideas - 10/13/2007 5:59:59 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
Here's the Clinton Republican playbook. I'm sure the one used against Bill is readily transferable.

1. Raising taxes from 31-39% on the top 1% will kill the economy. (It didn't.) 1992

2. When the economy boomed, it wasn't because Clinton controlled spending, raised taxes, and lowered government borrowing --- it was because of the Reagan policies set in place before him. 1993-1998

3. When the economy slowed, 98-2000, it was no longer the Reagan economy, it was the Clinton Economy.

---------

Please note, that no Republican Presidential candidate in the past 25 years has been able to accuse a Democrat of raising the rate of borrowing. That's because the unfunded tax cut and the unfunded war belong squarely in the Republican camp.

Bill Clinton, by say a 50 year historical measure, was an Eisenhower conservative: governing from the center, seeking a consensus, and fiscally conservative. I imagine his wife would be somewhat the same, if not identiticle.

Republicans, as you well know, abandoned fiscal conservatism back in 1980. They have repeatedly cut taxes and raised spending. Such a policy has short term gains, but if prolonged too far in its implementation, this hurts the bond market, it diminishes government revenue and effectiveness, and it creates a need for higher taxes.

Reagan raised taxes twice (2x) and Bush I raised them once (1x).

Pretty normal stuff. But since the radical, supply side, tax-cut driven side faction of the the Republican party has marginalized is moderates, raising taxes and funding goverment has become heresy. Futhermore, tax policy is overplayed in the national debate.

Its seems me you have fallen into this trap.

Clearly the country was in better hands under Clinton than it was under Bush. That's why it is so jarring to see the scare mongering regarding her candidacy, b/c there's no way any challenger could be as bad as the present Bush Administration. (A soaring national deficit, a gov't clothed in secrecy, liars about policy and the war, and two quagmire wars started with now no end in sight.)

Although the rate of taxation is important, so are many other policies and factors; the business cycle, rate of debt, the effectiveness of gov't as it stands or needs to be changed, whether the country is at war or not. Hillary Clinton is about as centrist as you will find. Merc's comparing her to Mao just shows he's into misleading hyperbole.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Some of Hillary Clintons Ideas - 10/13/2007 9:22:53 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

b/c there's no way any challenger could be as bad as the present ....Administration.


Isn't that what they said about Nixon?  And Reagan?  And Carter?

The scary part is that it can always get worse.


(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Some of Hillary Clintons Ideas - 10/13/2007 3:44:07 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

I am sure hillary will follow in her husbands footsteps!

The Clinton Years






_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 50
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