Pushing Limits (Full Version)

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Gauge -> Pushing Limits (7/28/2005 8:32:13 PM)

Due to an increase in threads dealing with the topic of abuse a question has come to mind and I would like to hear opinions. Let me state first off that this IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT ABUSE. This is a question about pushing limits.

I have noticed that when I have read these forums and profiles of submissives that mention of pushing limits has come up. Some submissives invite the pushing of their limits. What does this entail? Precisely how is one to push limits without crossing over the line into something abusive? After all, limits are just that... limits. I have also seen where people didn't necessarily want their limits pushed and it was done and they found it highly erotic and stimulating. How is a dominant to know when to go beyond what has been discussed as limits? I know that communication is a key item to doing this so please don't write a large dissertation on communication. I want to go beyond the obvious answers if that is at all possible. However, if you communicate your intent, does it not remove the spontaneity and the overall shock value?

I am interested to hear responses to this.




EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/28/2005 8:39:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
Some submissives invite the pushing of their limits. What does this entail


Usually it means "upping the ante" by either doing new things, doing the same things on a more intense level, or mixing things up.

quote:

Precisely how is one to push limits without crossing over the line into something abusive? After all, limits are just that... limits.

Hahahaha.

When someone speaks of a "hard limit" then yes, usually that means no, never, do not pass go. However, many "limits" actually mean "not yet" "not in most circumstances" "not until I'm really turned on"

These are often called "soft limits" even though, as you have noted, they aren't really limits.

How do you know when it's ok to push a "soft limit"? Communication, intuition, luck.

I have also seen where people didn't necessarily want their limits pushed and it was
quote:

However, if you communicate your intent, does it not remove the spontaneity and the overall shock value?

I am interested to hear responses to this.

Not if you do it well :) Just because you KNOW a sub is just itching to be kidnapped and caned brutally (which is nearly an act of god getting them to directly admit it) doesn't mean you have to do it that day or mark "Kidnapping Day!" on the calendar.

Lots of submissivs LOVE being "forced" into something, or "having no other choice" or being pushed into things beyond where they have been. It's risky business, but can be fun.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/28/2005 8:49:17 PM)

"Pushing limits" is a term that is borrowed from child psychology, and in my view it is not applicable to BDSM. Either something is a limit or it's not a limit. If it's a limit, it's not to be pushed. If it can be pushed, it's not a limit.

Pushing INHIBITIONS I can understand. Not pushing limits.




Gauge -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/28/2005 8:56:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

"Pushing limits" is a term that is borrowed from child psychology, and in my view it is not applicable to BDSM. Either something is a limit or it's not a limit. If it's a limit, it's not to be pushed. If it can be pushed, it's not a limit.

Pushing INHIBITIONS I can understand. Not pushing limits.


But in the context of the lifestyle the term is used. I can understand pushing inhibitions. Since the term limit is used, I wanted to get a clearer picture on just how one defines that and why they allow it to be pushed.

Interesting response. Thank you.





Lordandmaster -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/28/2005 9:03:45 PM)

Yes, I'm aware that the term is used widely, but I think there's something fundamentally wrong with it (in BDSM, that is). So I think just using the term gets people to thinking about these things in the wrong way--in the same way that "tax relief" has now gotten to be a buzzword in American politics, and has gone a long way toward fucking up the way the average American understands how taxes work.




perverseangelic -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/28/2005 9:08:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

"Pushing limits" is a term that is borrowed from child psychology, and in my view it is not applicable to BDSM. Either something is a limit or it's not a limit. If it's a limit, it's not to be pushed. If it can be pushed, it's not a limit.

Pushing INHIBITIONS I can understand. Not pushing limits.


Yes, yes and yes.

If someone cannot respect my limits, they cannot respect me. I don't have "soft" limits, becuase, to me, a limit is something I will not/cannot do. If you can do it, or might be willing to do it, then it isn't a limit, IMHO.

I have plenty of things I would prefer not to do. THey aren't limits, because I -will- do them. As I see the phrase "pushing limits" it means "doing the stuff that the individual in question would really rather not do" NOT "violating the things they will not/cannot do." It isn't pushing limits, it's leaving comfort zones.`

I don't like the idea of pushing limits, because, to me it opens the door to bad things. My limits, largely, consist of refusing to violate informed consent. When I hear the phrase "push limit" I wonder whose consent they will want me to violate.




Gauge -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/28/2005 9:16:43 PM)

quote:

I have plenty of things I would prefer not to do. THey aren't limits, because I -will- do them. As I see the phrase "pushing limits" it means "doing the stuff that the individual in question would really rather not do" NOT "violating the things they will not/cannot do." It isn't pushing limits, it's leaving comfort zones.`


Very nicely put. This is why I asked this question.




sweetsurrender4u -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/28/2005 9:37:29 PM)

quote:

undefined
As a novice I am seeking my "limits" to be pushed. To me it means exploring different aspects of BDSM or to go futher than I have been in the experienced areas. The average Dom is very connected to His subs needs and desires. He is constantly intact with her emotions and body language. He knows how far He can lead her and when it's time to stop.




hardxdrive -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/28/2005 9:38:55 PM)

my slave has no limits. her limits are my limits




Gauge -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/28/2005 9:50:17 PM)

quote:

As a novice I am seeking my "limits" to be pushed. To me it means exploring different aspects of BDSM or to go futher than I have been in the experienced areas.


I am not attacking you, so please don't think I am. If it means exploring different aspects of BDSM or going further than you have been in the past, then why call them limits at all?




Gauge -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/28/2005 10:04:20 PM)

I think that is pretty clear even this early on in the thread that there is a double meaning to the word limit. There are hard and soft limits. One is flexible and meant to be pushed. The other can only change if that person says that it is no longer a hard limit.

Is the phrase "pushing limits" something that contains a certain amount of taboo and therefore adds to the eroticism and excitement when the said "limits" are pushed?




EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/28/2005 10:11:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
Is the phrase "pushing limits" something that contains a certain amount of taboo and therefore adds to the eroticism and excitement when the said "limits" are pushed?

Sharing traumatic or exciting experiences with someone is a very connecting thing to do, it builds common bonds far faster and more vividly than simply walking in the park.

The problem of course is when you become addicted to pushing the limits in order to feel connected or happy, or when you feel you know the person for who they are after sharing a few vivid and exciting experiences (this is most commonly seen with the "I just spent 3 days non-stop with this guy and now I know I want to be totally his forever!" only to find that 6 months into a relationship with a person day-to-day is SLIGHTLY different than a 3 day bdsm vacation).

And yes, people feel a sense of trust and deeper connectivity with someone after they "push past limits" or "give up limits" to another.





itzelwing -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/28/2005 10:15:31 PM)

We call them limits because it is a common and accepted terminology. People know what we're talking about. If we sat down and broke our language into two groups... one that is potentially offensive or misleading and one that is acceptable... well that second group wouldn't have a heck of a lot in it.

As to pushing limits...

When I negotiate with a submissive, I want to know how far I can go. I don't ask for "soft" or "hard", I just want to know what that person does not want me to do. Later, I'll define "soft" or "hard" through further discussion and re-negotiation. Many times, those things they thought were limits were things they just hadn't tried yet. You go to the edge, then see if the sub is ready to jump off with you. If not, you don't jump. We also play with safewords, because even after they say, "go ahead," they may decide it was a wrong decision... and sometimes something that never was a limit can become one.

When I bottom, I try to do the same thing. I list very few limits when I negotiate with a top. But I'm also honest about things I don't like very much. However, on a couple of occasions, I found myself wanting to go beyond the borders I set in place.

By the way, even as a top, I have limits too. There are things I don't do, and won't. But if the situation were right, I can see where I might change my mind.

It's about communication, so call them limits, borders, or Albert if you want to, but if you communicate well, it's entirely possible to push limits completely out of existence without being a "bad" person.





Padriag -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/29/2005 2:35:52 AM)

A lot of good points have already been made, I'll see what I can add to it. Gauge asked several questions so I'll try to answer each.

Why push limits and how to know what limits to push?

In my experience submissives will seek being controlled, forced and sometimes pushed for a number of reasons, but two of the most common I encounter are this. The first is a desire to be forced into doing something "naughty" or taboo. Many societies, particularly western culture, saddle us all with a lot of emotional and psychological baggage about sex and sexual situations. We are taught that many things are wrong, sick, taboo, sinful, nasty, things that good girls/boys don't do. Yet we are also discovering many of these things are fun, exciting, enjoyable and pleasurable. Dominants tend to have less trouble stepping outside of societies boundaries, whether its because of type A personalities, or just a natural bent to follow our own instincts we generally feel less guilt and less self doubt when doing something society has told us is wrong. Submissives, generally speaking, often have more trouble with this. One solution for some submissives is to have a dominant "force" them into doing things that secretly they want to do (but often have trouble admitting too even desiring). The illusion of being forced allows them to transfer the guilt and blame to the dominant... its not their fault they did all those kinky, nasty things, he made her do it.

Another motivation is that submissives often enjoy feeling overwhelmed by the dominant, whether that be just physically, or emotionally and mentally as well. For them it is a powerful experience to be engulfed in the control of another, both frightening and at the same time strangely comforting. Being out of control is frightening, but when its with someone you trust, for the submissive it can also be thrilling. Think of it as being akin to the fear you feel riding a roller coaster, most of us think riding a roller coaster is fun even though it scares the hell out of you... what enables it to be fun inspite of being fun is that you know the whole time you are actually safe even if you aren't in control. For those who hate roller coasters, I'd venture to bet you don't really feel they are safe either. For a submissive in a play session, being out of control, but under the control and overwhelmed by someone they trust provides that same kind of fear/thrill. It can also be comforting, especially outside of play in the context of a relationship to be overwhelmed by someone who seems strong, capable, in control, etc. It provides a sense of security. It also underscores the need for dominants to remain in control of themselves... blow that and you've blown the whole thing.

These two examples aren't absolute and there are both exceptions as well as other motivations, but they are two of the most common I've encountered over the years and both provide a basis for they why of pushing limits.

Knowing what limits to push and when?

Knowing what limits to push really comes down to knowing the individual submissive. There are no standard answers here. This is one reason I personally don't care to play with someone I don't have some sort of relationship with, for me its is much more difficult to play with a stranger and get as much satisfaction out of it. I'm going to say something that may seem controversial, but bear with me and read twice if need be. For the most part don't worry with terms like hard limits and soft limits, they are inaccurate and confusing and there are better ways of establishing healthy boundaries. I am not saying limits should be ignored, its the terminology I object to, I hope that was clear. Drawing on my own experience I have found the ubiquitous BDSM checklists useful in getting the dialog going and sometimes I find a submissive finds it easier to indicate interest in a "taboo" fetish in a checklist when they can't verbally in conversation (this isn't always true, but it does work in some cases). However, I never stop there because the only way to really establish healthy boundaries is to get to know the submissive well enough you have an understanding of what is genuinely traumatic for them and harmful to their mental health versus those things that are secret fantasies. In short, communicate a lot and observe reactions closely over time.

Once you've established trust, healthy boundaries and have an idea of what at least a few of their secret fantasies are, you come to the question of when to push. Again, there is no standard answer here, you'll need to get to know the individual submissive. It will depend in part on the "limit", secret fantasy, and personal history of the individual submissive, but may also be influenced by the time of month in the case of women. I have observed that most women as they approach their period, beginning about a week or so before, become increasingly conservative sexually and less inclined to risky or adventerous behavior, but in the week or so just after are more inclined to it. A simple way for a dominant to check this and establish the pattern (some women may actually be the reverse), is to have a submissive fill out a BDSM check list at least 1 week before her period, during and at least 1 week after, then look to see what pattern emerges in her answers. There should be instances of increase interest in some activities and a decline in others in relation to this cycle and that can be useful in timing certain kinds of play so that both enjoy it the most. Beyond this the question of when really comes down to when it is practical and how long it takes the dominant to gain an understanding of what secret fantasies the submissive may have and how best to explore them.

How to push these limits without crossing into abuse?

A method for this that should be in the dominants repertoire is "foreshadowing" to borrow a literary term. Once a dominant has discovered a secret fantasy, rather than trying to push the submissive into it immediately or "cold", a period of building up tension with hints and clues can work very well. That is, suppose you have a submissive and you've discovered a secret fantasy about puppygirl role play. Rather than immediately trying to engage in this, or simply trying to push her into it "cold" in a play session, spend days, weeks or even a couple of months building her up to it. Begin with hints, clues and other indications of what might be coming... foreshadowing. These allow the submissive time to mentally adjust and accept what will eventually happen without ever being certain when or if it will happen or exactly what will happen. In the example of a puppygirl, perhaps one day a dog bowl with her name on it appears... nothing in it, nothing happens, just that little discovery and then afterwards you smile non-chalantly and put it away. Later, you leave a dog collar, leash and a rolled up newspaper on the coffee table just long enough for her to get a look at them, then put them away. Think of it like dropping clues in a mystery novel, draw it out until she is evidencing tension, anticipation and possibly excitement at what she suspects. In fact, if you build it up right, by the time you actually push the submissive into the secret fantasy it will may very well be a relief to them. One of the major advantages to foreshadowing is that it also allows time for additional observation in case the submissive starts showing real fear of what might happen and allows time for discussion if necessary before the actual event.

A second method that can be more risky but can also produce more intense reactions is to go "cold". That is, to simply push the submissive into a secret fantasy without warning which increases the shock value. You have to be careful with this and make absolutely certain that you know the submissive well enough to feel confident doing this without crossing those healthy boundaries. But, in cases where you do have an established relationship and you know the submissive well, it can produce some very intense experiences for both the dominant and the submissive, and if done with a submissive whom responds in a positive way to it, it can be an intensely erotic, thrilling and exciting form of play.

A word of caution

As a caution however let me be clear about the dangers and the responsibilities of both the dominant and the submissive. The danger here is that the dominant misunderstands and pushes into an area that exceeds the healthy boundaries of the submissive. This can result in anything from a moment of panic that passes once things are stopped (probably as the result of a safeword); to real emotional, mental and/or physical harm if the dominant really screws up. Obviously the risks are far less in the foreshadowing method than with going cold, so keep that in mind, be honest with yourself about your own capabilities as a dominant and err on the side of safety until you feel 100% confident. The dominant has the responsibility of assessing the situation and weighing all the factors involved as part of creating the "scene" or scenario, which should be planned out in advance. If you need to, write it down like a script of events and then read over it several times asking yourself what could go wrong, what are the possible reactions of the submissive, etc. The better you do at this, the better the scene will go an the more you will seem in control (and actually be in control) which will heighten the experience for both you and the submissive. Consider all the elements of the scenario you are considering... in my example of a puppygirl there is obviously an element of animal role play and of humiliation... what else might it include? (As a practice exercise, get out a piece of paper and write down how many other emotional and play elements you can think of that might be part of a puppygirl fantasy scenario). Based on what you know of the submissive, how will he or she react to this... and if you aren't certain find out! Submissives have a responsibility in being honest... do not tell a dominant you are interested in something that would emotionally or physically traumatize you just to please a dominant or because you think its what he wants to hear. If you mislead or misinform the dominant, he may make decisions based on that and be disastrously wrong. Simply be honest in your answers... if something appeals to you, say so, if it repulses you, say so... if you feel shy talking about something, say so. Be honest in your feelings.

To sum up, pushing limits is often about pushing into secret fantasies a submissive may not be able to consciously admit too. It can be an exciting experience if handled with care and conscientiously by the dominant who has a responsibility to safeguard the health (physical, mental and emotional) of the submissive. If the submissive has been honest about his or her feelings, the dominant can make this assessment and create a scenario of play that both can enjoy. Pushing limits is not about ignoring healthy boundaries or hard limits, its not about forcing a submissive into something they don't agree to. As always, if it isn't consensual, its abuse.

Hope that helped, if I got too thick on any point feel free to ask and I'll explain further.
The above essay is copyrighted material belonging to the author (Padriag), please contact me before reprinting, reposting or reproducing elsewhere.




CreativeControl -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/29/2005 6:32:50 AM)

I have been reading the thread as it stands, and it seems no matter what the question may be, the main fix or resolution is COMMUNICATION.

No matter what the limit may be, if it is a shared limit such as kids, animals, no anal, fireplay; or if it is a limit of the sub/slave such as the same examples, then that limit must be upheld. It is beyond questioning. that builds trust and compassion between the sub/slave and the Master/Dom/Domme. It also then works toward allowing you to push the envelope for adding things into the plan for training your slut to your liking. Everyone went to school, and had to take classes and do things they didn't want to do...but we got through it all, mostly unharmed...just a little shellshocked.

Time and experience with a sub/slave really may be the only true way to get past this issue. Don't you agree? I wouldn't expect that on your first session one would jump right into making a sub/slave have sex with a goat, dog, or horse without talking about it first. I don't feel it too beyond reason to expect to tie a slave and titwhip her on the first session, but I wouldn't make her go beyond feeling safe and ignore her limits.

I had one slave that didn't want her photo taken. I wanted to take them, but I allowed her to feel safe and secure by not taking the photos. I figured that in time, she would come around after I take more and more photos of her in normal settings. Then I could begin to cross into that limit and take photos of her in bondage. She would feel safe and know they weren't going to end up on the internet or in print somewhere. I ended up doing several drawings of her in her bondage, and I enjoyed seeing her suffer longer for the drawings. She didn't seem to mind the thought of a quick photo being taken as much after that session. I still never took the photos...just to fuck with her. It all worked out just fine.

So, as long as there is an understanding and open communication one would never expect to fall into this area of question.

However, it does bring up another question...if a sub/slave is to please their Master/Dom/Domme, is there a real limit? If they have committed to servitude, or even have a contract written where these limits are not specified, do you have the right to force it on them no matter what?

Does that make sense at all? Has anyone had experience with that at all?

Thanks for lisitening.

Farris




LadySonelle -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/29/2005 9:46:13 AM)

I don't necessarily push limits, I expand the submissive's envelope of how far he is willing to go. case in point: One of My subs is really touchy about nipple play. he flinches and safewords even at the lightest pinch. So I don't pinch. I lay My hands on his nipples and stroke, press, circle them and talk about what I *could* do. If he stays still for this, he is praised praised PRAISED. he has expanded his envelope for Me. The offering of his body, the ability to hold still while I play with his sensitive nipples, is a cherished and valuable gift to Me.
He gains by learning tho trust Me, that I won't hurt him and that he can relax into submission under My care. I gain by drawing his experiences out and giving him more confidence.

My goal, as I hnave told him, is that he wear My "crabbie clamps" which are VERY light clips. So kight they will not stay on if shaken. They are the softest, mildest clamps in my collection, barely the pressure of a ckip on earring, but if he succeeds in wearing these, he will accomplish a lot. How long will it take before he is able to wear them? *shrug* Maybe a year, maybe more, maybe less. But the pleasure he sees Me derive from his successes feeds his determination to do as I ask of him.

Right now, his sensitive nipples aRE a limit and I respect that limit, but I am expanding it. At some point he will find that what really was difficult before is easier and he will be quite thrilled at his progress.

I love playing sith boundaries!

Lady Sonelle




sweetsurrender4u -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/29/2005 10:00:13 AM)

quote:

undefined
Please don't apologize for your personal thoughts and views. Apparently the term "pushing limits" has a different meaning to each Dom or sub.

What if I say I don't like spinach and won't try it. The truth is, I've never tasted it and have a mind set that it will be disgusting and make me sick. Then comes a day when I decide to try it and to my surprise I love it and can't get enough of it.

The average limit is set due to fear of the unknown or the lack of tust and faith in our partner to stop if the situation becomes out of control.

If we don't step outside of our boundaries on occasion...then we are making a conscience decision to stay dormant and not grow in the many facets of the Alternative lifestyle.

It also depends on the D/s relationship and the amount of trust and faith between Master and sub. He should be in complete sync with her reactions and respond appropriately. If her body language is postive than He should proceed, if negative vibes are present then He will ease off and return to familiar areas of play.

Hard limits should never be pushed. It can be devasting to the relationship.




Padriag -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/29/2005 12:02:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeControl

However, it does bring up another question...if a sub/slave is to please their Master/Dom/Domme, is there a real limit? If they have committed to servitude, or even have a contract written where these limits are not specified, do you have the right to force it on them no matter what?

Does that make sense at all? Has anyone had experience with that at all?

Thanks for lisitening.

Farris

Yes it makes sense, and I'll try to answer it without posting another essay. Yes there are real limits, they can come from different things. Some are physical limits, for example if a slave has a bad knee she may not be able to be a ponygirl or crawl for long periods; a simplistic example but non-the-less true. Some limits are social / cultural / religious... would you ask an orthodox Jew to eat pork? Limits can be psychological, if someone is seriously claustrophobic it would not be a healthy idea to lock them in a confined space. Everyone has limits of some sort. But some limits can change and that applies to dominant and submissives equally. Generally I've only seen it happen in long term relationships, you might call it part of the process of growing into each other. I've seen submissives give up previously held hard limits after being with a dominant for a long time, and I've seen dominants give up limits of their own after long experience with a submissive. We do affect each other, though it can take a lot of time and its still not something that can or should be forced.

Lastly, sometimes a limit will change due to an experience that changes the submissive's perspective. It might create a new limit, or obliterate an old one. For example, suppose a submissive is convinced based on some past experience that she can't dance, has two left feet, and thus refuses to do anything involving dance (like erotic dance or belly dancing). Let us also suppose for sake of argument that maybe the past experience was a high school dance where she was laughed at and ridiculed and it left her so badly scarred emotionally she never tried again, but that in fact she is not a klutz and does not actually have two left feet. In such a case there's nothing actually stopping her from learning to dance accept her own fear, her incorrect perception about herself. That incorrect perception creates a limit, but not a natural one, and if care is taken it could be pushed and eventually removed. We've seen it in movies, the girl who doesn't think she can dance finds that dreamy hunk of a teacher who encourages her and builds up her confidence until she finally agrees to learn to dance and then she goes on to become the queen of the dance floor. Real life probably won't go quite like that fairy tale, but a more realistic version of it could happen. The dominant certainly could build up the submissives confidence over time, perhaps give her a few private dance lessons himself if he's able or hire a private teacher, create a setting where she feels safe and less self conscious an so forth. With care and consideration, that submissives perception of herself as a klutz who can't dance could change... and a previously held limit can thus be changed. But, its not about forcing it so much as it is gently persuading, coaxing, encouraging and enabling them to do it. Does that answer your questions?




Padriag -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/29/2005 12:10:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadySonelle
I don't necessarily push limits, I expand the submissive's envelope of how far he is willing to go. case in point: One of My subs is really touchy about nipple play. he flinches and safewords even at the lightest pinch. So I don't pinch. I lay My hands on his nipples and stroke, press, circle them and talk about what I *could* do. If he stays still for this, he is praised praised PRAISED. he has expanded his envelope for Me. The offering of his body, the ability to hold still while I play with his sensitive nipples, is a cherished and valuable gift to Me.
He gains by learning tho trust Me, that I won't hurt him and that he can relax into submission under My care. I gain by drawing his experiences out and giving him more confidence.

That's a classic and excellent example of behavior modification through positive reinforcement, a good technique for any dominant to add to their repretoire of skills. One that I personally have found often gets some of the best results.




wednesday -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/29/2005 2:03:49 PM)

quote:

Precisely how is one to push limits without crossing over the line into something abusive? After all, limits are just that... limits


I can only speak from personal experience, but...

There were things that I was damn sure were hard limits. They were linked to early traumas (as mentioned above), or they seemed too frightening, or too dangerous. In the early stages of my current relationship, when we were discussing my limits, he asked me to explain WHY certain things were limits.

As the relationship progressed and he got to know me better, he would try introducing things that I had previously said were not allowed. And to date, each one of these things that he has introduced (despite my stated disinterest) has turned out to be wonderful.

Sometimes, a limit comes down to a matter of ignorance.

I THOUGHT these things sounded like bad ideas, and I hadn't been willing to try them to be sure. It turns out he knows better than I do what I like and don't like [;)] Granted, that's not going to work for everyone. I know that the depth of the connection between he and I allows for that safety net - the fact that he can read me so well and his instincts are better than mine.

Would I go against someone else's limits? No. But I'm glad he took mine with a grain of salt.




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