RE: Pushing Limits

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Lordandmaster -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/29/2005 4:24:42 PM)
That's exactly the problem. We DON'T know what we're talking about. It's all maddeningly unclear. "Pushing limits" implies that limits exist to be pushed--and I really don't think they are if they are REALLY limits. If I had a moral objection to a certain kind of sexual activity (I won't give any examples because it isn't necessary and could only get the thread killed), I would be more than upset if someone tried to "push" that limit. In fact, I might call the police. This whole idea of "pushing limits" serves one very bad purpose: it allows people to be dishonest with themselves about who they are and what they need. It allows submissives to pretend to themselves that they don't REALLY want dirty slutty activity X; they are only being "pushed" into it by a big strong dom who knows how to "push" their limits. That's a load of bullshit, and I personally don't have time for someone who has those kinds of hangups. If you want to be fucked in the ass (or whatever), just acknowledge it. Don't pretend that you're really a white-bread all-American girl and your limits are being pushed. quote: ORIGINAL: itzelwing We call them limits because it is a common and accepted terminology. People know what we're talking about.

IronBear -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/29/2005 6:20:21 PM)
When I meet a potential partner, I certainly want to know what she likes and her favourites. I also want to know what she doesn’t like. These can be divided into definite No Nos (i.e. hard limits which we never look at except in a discussion), What she is afraid of but at some time may want to explore, and the things, which interest her but hasn’t tried yet. These can easily be relabelled with hard and soft limits its all just a name really.

sweetnygirl -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/29/2005 9:06:43 PM)
When I first met Sir he asked me what my limits were, I told him that there were things I cannot do because they would jeapordize my physical & mental health. But I also told him that since I was an absolute novice there were things I was wary of trying but would try to do them to the best of my ability. So far he has taken me further than I ever thought I could go & with things I was petrified to try. But I trust him implicitly & he has never harmed me in the least. But I know the things I told him were never to be attempted from the start will never be tried. I explained why they were not possible and that there were medical reasons behind it & he told me that he would never do anything to impair my health & well being.

mossy -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/31/2005 10:20:42 AM)
Yes if the Dominant communicates His intent it removes the spontaneity, and overall shock value. But careful and subtle questioning by the Dominant in advance, knowing Your sub/slave well goes a long way as to how far You can push. If both parties are emotionally healthy/stable and out to bulild up the relationship for the better, and do no harm, then pushing limits should be an exciting endeavor. There is a huge difference, and it is very apparent to a sub/slave when a Dominant is there to help him/her successfully move to higher ground or not. So a possible push a bit to far to me is not seen as a failure or cruelty on the part of my Dominant,,,,but rather as valiant try to take me higher.

perverseangelic -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/31/2005 11:54:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster That's exactly the problem. We DON'T know what we're talking about. It's all maddeningly unclear. "Pushing limits" implies that limits exist to be pushed--and I really don't think they are if they are REALLY limits. If I had a moral objection to a certain kind of sexual activity (I won't give any examples because it isn't necessary and could only get the thread killed), I would be more than upset if someone tried to "push" that limit. In fact, I might call the police. This whole idea of "pushing limits" serves one very bad purpose: it allows people to be dishonest with themselves about who they are and what they need. It allows submissives to pretend to themselves that they don't REALLY want dirty slutty activity X; they are only being "pushed" into it by a big strong dom who knows how to "push" their limits. That's a load of bullshit, and I personally don't have time for someone who has those kinds of hangups. If you want to be fucked in the ass (or whatever), just acknowledge it. Don't pretend that you're really a white-bread all-American girl and your limits are being pushed. Exactly! Limits aren't things I don't want to do. Limits aren't things that I want to be "forced" to do--that is, things that I want to do, but don't want to admit I want. To define them as such, to me, lessens the meaning of "limits" to those of us for whom limits are things we will not and cannot do for moral, ethical, or physical reasons. When I tell someone "these are my limits" and they opperate under the definition that limits are "things she doesn't like" I am at risk of being "pushed" into doing things I am unable or morally unwilling to do. I'm fine with people saying "this is something I do not like, and would rather not do." But if you aren't willing ot say "I will NOT do this, no matter who asks me to," to me, it isn't a limit. It's a preference. This isn't a bad thing, by any means. I have some very strong preferences. However, I've noticed that people seem to view my limits as optional things. They aren't, and having limits which can be pushed makes limits, overall, seem optional.

EvilTwin -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/31/2005 12:55:35 PM)
I think this is really a case of taking the wording as law, or as intended. When I am "pushing a limit" I refuse to do something that my babygirl is totally against, but I like to take the established limit or maximum of acceptible activities and extend them beyond what she normally does. Jim

Padriag -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/31/2005 1:08:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EvilTwin I think this is really a case of taking the wording as law, or as intended. An astute observation. As has often been said about many of the terms we use... pushing limits, total power exchange, etc. they are often inaccurate and clumsy terms for what we do. Yet they have become nearly permanent parts of our vocabulary and we are, for the most part, stuck with them at this point. Rather that argue over literal interpretations of the words, its more productive to explore the intended meaning. Language is never created by linguistic experts, its created by the average people who used whatever word seemed to them to best fit the need at the time.

LadySonelle -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/31/2005 1:34:51 PM)
Actually, the term 'limit' comes from 'limn' or "outline". We often see signs which say "City Limits". That doesn't mean a hard wall around the city and NOBODY can live beyond the sign, it means that "here the body of the city has its boundary" I have read manyseveral people saying "I don't want to be forced, to have my limits pushed." This seems to indicate that the Dominant in the scene cannot distinguish between reticence and dowright refusal! Now really! When I am playing with a slave, I always ask them "What do you like, what do you disline, what are you willing to try and what do you absolutely refuse to do?" If a sub says "I don't want to be spanked and have you say 'Bad boy!' because my mother did that and I was terrified of it!" then I do NOT use that trigger phrase! I KNOW better. But I can tell from tone of voice, from the way a thing is explained (or not explained! Silence on something can speak volumes) and I will play at whip length, crop length, but as I approach the limitations, I move in closer, I am WITH My submissive, If I try something he says he is afraid of, FIRST I verbalise it "Ohh, that bottom looks so tempting! I'd love to play with it... " If the sub flinches and his face shifts, I don't TOUCH that butt! If he looks fearful, but questioning, I may stroke his bottom and pat it softly but I won't spank him. I lead, I verbalise, I coax IF (and ONLY IF!) I see the signs that he is afraid but also questioning in himself (can I do it? She wants me to...) If I see only fright, I back away as gently as I approach. The closer we get to the edge, the closer I get to My sub! Holding, caressing, face to face, soft talking, touching, working with him, working within him, it is a LOT like gentling a frightened horse. I slow down, I go softer, I watch like a hawk for the first flicker of fright heightening. I have been told by onlookers that when I am in this mode, My breathing matches that of the sub! Iam riding the gas and the brake at the same time, inching gently ONLY as far as the sub offers up to Me. NO farther. In fact, if there is a hard limit that the sub has said will harm him, EVEN if he (in full sub space) decides to cross it, I won't. I might bring him to the point of having his bottom lightly spanked... but I won't use the phrase that his mother used. That is TOO far and I know it. What I'm getting at is that when I do work with limits, expanding them based on My sub's own willingness, I am as close as a surgeon, as focused as a sculptor, shutting out all distraction and becoming the shadow of My sub's own body. To hurt him would be to hurt Myself. When such a scene ends, it ends slowly, very slowly guiding back to safe ground and after care can be hours long! I will hold the sometimes shivering, crying but exhilerated sub in My arms and let him know the breadth, depth, magnitude of the sacred and wonderful gift he has given... and gained! I call the next day, or visit. I am WITH him all the way and he has My number and instructions to call... CALL if he needs Me. In the end, he is stronger, more sure of himself and perhaps a demon has been slain. If he says that he has gone as far as he can, then that is as far as I go. It takes listening skills, observation, empathy, patience, time and hard work to work with limits and it takes the understanding to know when a line must NOT be crossed. If a sub sets a firm limit and sticks to it, so do I. I am boind by the Hippocratic and medical oaths I took decades ago and the doctrine "Primum non nocere!" (First, do no harm!) holds Me as firmly as steel bands. I don't cross limits just because it's "fun" to do! I don't cross limits with a casual player. I don't cross limits EVER on a first or second or even third scene with a specific sub. I study, I wait, I gauge and assess and above all I LISTEN. In 23 years, I have never harmed a submissive. I have occasionally "wrapped" a whip or smacked too hard or raised a welt that wasn't intended, but psychological work has always been carried out with the pace of a snail and the caution of someone suturing a cornea! The reward of such work has always been immense! Lady Sonelle

IronBear -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/31/2005 3:20:45 PM)
It is said that a Gorean man’s limits are set by others. I.E. What they will allow him to do before weapons are drawn…. So we don’t use the same rules here, but to a large degree others do set our limits either openly or subconsciously. Hence many succumb to peer pressure or needing to fit in with the crowd they associate with. I respect most, those who hold to the limits they set, hard limits if you will, rather than be coerced into areas which may place them at risk. Ultimately we each must decide how far we will go. There is a time when you need say “Enough!” Even at the risk of loosing popularity or acceptance of others including loved ones.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/31/2005 6:25:25 PM)
Wrong. "Limit" comes from Latin LIMES, meaning "border." "Limn" comes from Latin LUMINARE (via Old French LUMINER), meaning "to illuminate" (that is, a manuscript). The two words are unrelated. quote: ORIGINAL: LadySonelle Actually, the term 'limit' comes from 'limn' or "outline".

LadySonelle -> RE: Pushing Limits (7/31/2005 8:09:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Wrong. "Limit" comes from Latin LIMES, meaning "border." "Limn" comes from Latin LUMINARE (via Old French LUMINER), meaning "to illuminate" (that is, a manuscript). The two words are unrelated. quote: ORIGINAL: LadySonelle Actually, the term 'limit' comes from 'limn' or "outline". Ah! Quite right. Thank you for the correction. I was going on half remembered etymology. I stand corrected. :) Lady Sonelle

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