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From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 12:44:57 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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quote:

And how did the first of the "experts" learn when there were no experts before him/her?


I liked this question and thought it was important enough to address.

Many of the activities in which we engage in BDSM were, in the beginning, taken from outside sources. Take rope work, for example. Where did the first pervs learn how to do something that had never been done before? How did one ever master the Turk's head knot and use it to finish off those delicious leather floggers that are so well loved for play?

I learned how to tie off a Turk's head from a fisherman. Well, in a round about way. I bought his book on knots and applied his techniques. After that, it was a matter of practice. It took me two solid years to do it right, but, eventually, I was able to tie it off correctly (read: without it falling apart) and now I can utilize the skill at my whim. Additionally, I can now teach others how to tie off a Turk's Head as well. What took me two years to learn out of a book, I can teach to another and they can learn the same thing in a fraction of the time with the hands on education. Not everyone learns best by example and doing.. some will actually do much better on their own without a teacher. There is room for both 'schools' in BDSM.

Many medical scenes were conscripted from doctors. Piercings were taken from those who practiced such art in relation to their spirituality or religion. Flogging goes back several hundred years. Handcuffs, straight jackets and other forms of bondage.. just look towards mental institutions and security. Very little of the activities in which we engage were originated within the BDSM community itself. The 'experts' are our mothers and fathers out in the vanilla world. They learned by trial and error. Many of us continue to learn by trial and error, but to have venues where such is taught so you don't have to waste an unrenewable commodity like time, is very much appreciated by a wide variety of people. People into BDSM don't, necessarily, invent, we twist up and kink what's already been invented.

Celeste



_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 12:56:35 PM   
DarkDaddyZ


Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

And how did the first of the "experts" learn when there were no experts before him/her?


I liked this question and thought it was important enough to address.

Many of the activities in which we engage in BDSM were, in the beginning, taken from outside sources. Take rope work, for example. Where did the first pervs learn how to do something that had never been done before? How did one ever master the Turk's head knot and use it to finish off those delicious leather floggers that are so well loved for play?

I learned how to tie off a Turk's head from a fisherman. Well, in a round about way. I bought his book on knots and applied his techniques. After that, it was a matter of practice. It took me two solid years to do it right, but, eventually, I was able to tie it off correctly (read: without it falling apart) and now I can utilize the skill at my whim. Additionally, I can now teach others how to tie off a Turk's Head as well. What took me two years to learn out of a book, I can teach to another and they can learn the same thing in a fraction of the time with the hands on education. Not everyone learns best by example and doing.. some will actually do much better on their own without a teacher. There is room for both 'schools' in BDSM.

Many medical scenes were conscripted from doctors. Piercings were taken from those who practiced such art in relation to their spirituality or religion. Flogging goes back several hundred years. Handcuffs, straight jackets and other forms of bondage.. just look towards mental institutions and security. Very little of the activities in which we engage were originated within the BDSM community itself. The 'experts' are our mothers and fathers out in the vanilla world. They learned by trial and error. Many of us continue to learn by trial and error, but to have venues where such is taught so you don't have to waste an unrenewable commodity like time, is very much appreciated by a wide variety of people. People into BDSM don't, necessarily, invent, we twist up and kink what's already been invented.

Celeste



I think most elements of life are things enhanced.  BDSM started as vanilla sex enhanced.

When someone enhances that, and tweaks it and many people like how it's been tweaked and do that the way it's been tweaked.  Then that person does get kudos, props or whatever and there are some that would call that person an expert.

I'm a dance music DJ and have a lot of knowledge on the various music of House, Hip Hop, Disco, Funk, R&B, 80s pop and New Wave.  I've taken things from all my mentors and made it my own.  Some I've mentored call me an expert in dance music. I don't accept that but I appreciate they feel that way.

I've had mentors teach me how to fist, flog, cut, spank in fact pretty much ever (physical) aspect of BDSM play.  I respect them.  I call them my mentors,  some may call them experts.

Rarely would I be interested learning from someone who calls themselves an expert.  Some of my BDSM (Leather) Heroes, Vi Johnson, Jeremiah from ATL, Hines, Doug Harris, Daddy Max, Joseph Bean, Jill Carter,  pug, the late Frank Puckett even the late Jack Stice and Tom Stice have never mentioned or implied to me that they are experts or heroes. 

Z-

_____________________________

"Flirting is part of the job description." DJ Jesus (Lucy Daughter Of The Devil)

Vanilla Official Music Page http://www.myspace.com/djzulu

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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 1:09:55 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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quote:

I've had mentors teach me how to fist, flog, cut, spank in fact pretty much ever (physical) aspect of BDSM play.  I respect them.  I call them my mentors,  some may call them experts.


I probably wouldn't call them mentors, but I might reference them as teachers. I do believe that 'expert' has a different implication than teacher and I believe that one can be an expert and not be a mentor or a teacher. 

I can teach someone to make chocolate, but I'm not an expert chocolate maker (although I'm damn good at it!). Jacques Torres is an expert in the field and I would refer to him that way whether or not he refered to himself that way, so I do see your point in the post and I thank you for the contribution. :)

Celeste

edit: quote repair

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 10/12/2007 1:19:56 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 1:12:00 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

People into BDSM don't, necessarily, invent, we twist up and kink what's already been invented.

Celeste




I agree......and I love the twist that the power lies in my submission...before I understood that I simply felt inferior

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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 1:29:06 PM   
Prinsexx


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Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


I can now teach others how to tie off a Turk's Head as well. What took me two years to learn out of a book, I can teach to another and they can learn the same thing in a fraction of the time with the hands on education.
Celeste




I agree with all the examples you have given But someone asked me the other day well how does 24.7 work if you can't live together?
First of all I was fallttered as they must have considered me some sort of expert, or indeed to have a greater body of knowledge on 24/7 than they did.
Of course it's one of those areas which would be inpossible to say: that's correct (as in the end-knot held) or that is incorrect because the effin rope fell aprt) but all I could do in that instance was to say it like it was from both personal experience and from what I suppose I had picked up from various sources.....clients, questionnaires, Wipi, Wki etc. But the term expert itself is relative and I think it is a blessing that this community understanding id organic, changes and is open for debate as otherwise we would all by defintion be limited in our perversions and kinks to what had already gone before and was recognised and accepted........perish the thought.

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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 1:43:05 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

I agree with all the examples you have given But someone asked me the other day well how does 24.7 work if you can't live together?
First of all I was fallttered as they must have considered me some sort of expert, or indeed to have a greater body of knowledge on 24/7 than they did.
Of course it's one of those areas which would be inpossible to say: that's correct (as in the end-knot held) or that is incorrect because the effin rope fell aprt) but all I could do in that instance was to say it like it was from both personal experience and from what I suppose I had picked up from various sources.....clients, questionnaires, Wipi, Wki etc. But the term expert itself is relative and I think it is a blessing that this community understanding id organic, changes and is open for debate as otherwise we would all by defintion be limited in our perversions and kinks to what had already gone before and was recognised and accepted........perish the thought.



I absolutely agree with you, Prinsexx. There are somethings which can't be taught as they must be discovered for one's self. But, there are also somethings which only have 'one' way to do them. That's why I used the Turks Head knot as an example. There is a single, one true way to tie a Turks Head Knot. The ropes must be turned a certain number of times and in a certain way. You have to put the right ends through the right loops or the result is not a Turks Head Knot. It's something else. From my experience, that something else is usually a mess. ::chuckles::

When it comes to relationships though, all bets are off! Not only are there 6+ billion (one for every soul on the planet) ways to have them, they're all different so who could teach anything about how someone else should have one? The best we can do is to relate our own experiences and if that speaks to someone else, they may want to take what works from that and leave what doesn't. I've always been an advocate of that sort of thinking.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Prinsexx)
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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 1:52:18 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		The Expert Syndrome is quite prevalent on CM. I have no doubt that you can find out anything you want to know here.

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You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 2:17:12 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		But yet we do learn how to relate to one another, and some basic tendancies can certainly help further our journies.
The difference between a dominant and someone who is domineering being an example of learned behavior.
Both have the natural inclination to dominate their relationship counterparts, but the results are predictably different.
And examples of modeled behaviour are often the teaching method that works in this regard.
Exposure to grounded dominant people who care about the fullfilment of their charges will have a somewhat reproducable effect. We mimic successfull aproaches and see if the work for us, if they do great if we are one of the minorities who the approach does not work for then we try another tactic. Certainly we take a look around us and find those whose examples have yielded the results we desire, we discriminate using our brains to pick and choose what we believe will work for us and we try it. However left unschooled without an example we tend to take alot longer to find what works. We might stumble into it, but the odds of finding a way of relating that will work for us is accelerated if we listen to the things that have worked or often more importantly those things that have yielded failure when tried by others. We can then fine tune the approaches both those that worked making them better and sometimes those that didn't work for someone else forewarned of the hazards that may have been the cause of the previous failure. We're not faking the feeling we are trying new applications of our natures to see if the results will be good for us.

I agree most often the folks many call experts are hesitant at best if not down right denying their "expertise". The term has become loaded with negative bagadge for so many. But that aspect is a semantic battle expert vs advanced student vs knowledgeable elder vs insert whatever term works for you here.

Most classes I have taken in BDSM skillsets have centered around the idea that:

Here are the basic physics biological and emotional factors that tend to come into play.
Here are the ways I have found to control and adjust those factors.





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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 2:19:46 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		That's a good question.  It's one I have thought of alot in general life as well.....how did one learn how to be shot out of a cannon without dying first or bungee jumping?  Some things you just have to look at and ponder that the learning curve must have been a bitch

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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 2:22:13 PM   
ThinkingKitten


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From: Ontari-ari-o
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I probably wouldn't call them mentors, but I might reference them as teachers. I do believe that 'expert' has a different implication than teacher and I believe that one can be an expert and not be a mentor or a teacher. 



I totally agree - unfortunately some who are definitely experts, couldn't actually impart their knowledge to anyone else if their life depended on it. You could be brilliant, and a world expert on your subject, and bloody useless at trying to teach it. I know, I've met them! MInd you, there are, as you imply, a gazillion degrees and relativity of "expertism" too.... one man's expert, is another man's ignoramous. (or woman's of course).

_____________________________

Thinking Kitten

If you can't stand the heat... tell the chef to get out of the kitchen.

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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 2:22:28 PM   
DCroommate


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
..snip..
I can teach someone to make chocolate, but I'm not an expert chocolate maker (although I'm damn good at it!).  
..snip...
Celeste

Mmmmmm chocolate.....
I think this needs some evaluation.. would you please come over and make us some chocolate.. I mean, after all, the more evaluation the better,, right?

~ann

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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 3:02:12 PM   
SixFootMaster


Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline 		FR

Anyone who calls themselves an expert has a hell of a lot more to learn.

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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 3:05:04 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

FR

Anyone who calls themselves an expert has a hell of a lot more to learn.



nuh uh....I'm an expert.....at masturbation
l

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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 3:07:22 PM   
marieToo


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From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

FR

Anyone who calls themselves an expert has a hell of a lot more to learn.



nuh uh....I'm an expert.....at masturbation
l


I'm better at it than you are.

_____________________________

marie.


I give good agita.









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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 3:12:23 PM   
Bearlee


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From: South Central CO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

The Expert Syndrome is quite prevalent on CM. ... 


Have you noticed that too?  It cracks me up when people fill out their 'interests' and put 'EXPERT' after 3/4 of the topics!  I mean, they end up with 40-50 items that they're EXPERT in ...especially masturbation; but I have to keep in mind that perhaps the guy has an EXPERT sense of humor, too!   LOL
 
b

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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 3:16:27 PM   
laurell3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

FR

Anyone who calls themselves an expert has a hell of a lot more to learn.



nuh uh....I'm an expert.....at masturbation
l


I'm better at it than you are.


no way!
l 

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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 3:20:53 PM   
BitaTruble


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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

FR

Anyone who calls themselves an expert has a hell of a lot more to learn.



I think it depends on the subject and how narrowly you define your area of expertise.

For example, I may claim myself expert at tying a 4 bight Turk's Head and I may, in fact, be an expert but I wouldn't claim to be an expert on knots. The former may be accurate, the latter is misleading.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 3:27:19 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

From where do experts hail?

EVERYWHERE. Not necessarily "experts" but expertise.

The opportunity to learn is all around us, all it takes it an open mind to appreciate it. Any day without something learned is a wasted day.

Growing up, I learned from porn and from priests. "Priests" meant in both the literal as well as metaphorical sense. Who better to teach the fundamentals of discipline, the cause and effect relationship of action and reaction; but one having the ultimate penalty of "hell" as a reference point. Witnessing and being a part of the the discipline and humiliation of the 1960's catholic elementary school education and an early 70's Catholic HS system was a big part of my development. The priests and nuns were "experts" in many of the skills that I learned and used throughout my experience in BDSM, especially the 'mind games'. I didn't necessarily learn the exact lesson being taught, but I took from the experience something I could apply to my goals and desires.

Learning is a lot of fun, brings much satisfaction, and is a path to self discovery even if it isn't the intent going into the experience. I sat with and tried to learn shibiri rope tying from a very skilled expert and learned that I didn't have the patience for it and instead, to this day, employ cuffs and quick release clips. I learned that although I loved the results of the rope effort, the process did nothing for me.

I never sought out "experts". I went to people who I respected or had a good reputation within the community. Some reputations were deserved, some were a function of longevity, but I never came away from any experience without learning something, even if it was what not to do, or what I didn't want to do again.

Porn was also a great source of 'experts'. My "father's Sex talk" consisted of this exchange with my strict Italian father in the car on the way to my first HS dance at the tender age of 13. "Son - Do you know how to get a girl pregnant?" "Yes Dad." "Well, you better not do it or I'll kill you!" "Okay Dad". "Alright then - Have fun at the dance." And that was it. My real education came from porn.

You young 'uns can't appreciate it, but back in the day, we used to share old 8mm 20 minute 'movies'. They were very bad movies, poorly filmed, black & white; but I learned many things from these films borrowed from the dark corners of our parent's closets and drawers in HS. I remember finding out who's parents were going to be out on Friday night and going over and watching "smokers" before going out. It seemed every household had some form or fashion of porn hidden away somewhere. I was reminiscing with beth about those days just last weekend. I didn't realize that all guys didn't do "everything" with their partner when they had sex, and the action should last at least 20 minutes. But that was my "education" as a result of the observed "experts". Naively, I thought that was how sex should be and as a result it made be very popular in HS with the repressed Catholic girls. And since the movies always employed the 'withdraw' method I thought; "ummmm they must be following the Pope's edict. Its not an extra 'sin' if I did so too". I didn't run the risk of 'hell' by using a condom or any other form of birth control if I did so too. How I was able to avoid a pregnancy with those encounters speaks to luck. However, I remember one 'scare' resulting in seeking out 'expertise' in anal sex. With enough practice I was able to match what I saw on the screen.

"Experts" are all around. All it takes is a open and willing mind to learn something from them.

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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 3:29:40 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		It isn't just CM.  There are self-proclaimed experts in most any field. Those who can back-up their claims tend to become respected in that field.  Those who can't, usually open themselves up for continued crticism.  There aren't many fields (if any), where a person can publish their findings/approaches/techniques, that they aren't at first subject to peer scrutiny. 

Now, the experts in masterbation, probably don't have to face much scrutiny form their peers, but then again - they are their own worst critics.     

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 10/12/2007 3:35:35 PM >

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RE: From where do experts hail? - 10/12/2007 4:50:31 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		~FR~

Merc: Excellent point about the difference between 'expert' and 'expertise'. I think I actually used the word expertise in one of my posts, but I'm too lazy to go back and read it. ::chuckles:: Thanks for sharing a bit of your history! It brought back memories of my own and really made me feel my age at the same time. 

The walk down memory lane brought with it a certain awareness of things that one may be expert (or have expertise) in but it would be wise to remember knowledge can become obsolete. I used to be able to write in DOS like no one's business.. fat lot of good it does me now!

Winsome: Too true, that! I see nothing wrong with making a claim of expertise if it can be backed up. Too, I think if one has proven themselves expert to the vast majority, there is nothing wrong with letting others know, especially if you enjoy teaching and passing the knowledge forward. I've found a lot of people who I would certainly deem 'expert' to be somewhat humble about their expertise, but I think it's a mistake to be sooo very humble that you are afraid to speak up about it. Confidence in your own knowledge has the potential to gather others to you and for a teacher, that's vital. It's requires something of a balance to be able to simply state the facts of your expertise without being either too humble or too grand-standing.

Thanks for sharing everyone. :)

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
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