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RE: Dominant Expectations - 10/17/2007 7:59:12 AM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Male subs often wish deep down, after all, they could merely be pursued, courted, seduced, *demanded* by a powerful woman - that's core to some of the idealistic male fantasy!

I disagree. I do not wish as you describe. I prefer to court because it puts me before those who interest me, and because it leaves the power structure consistent with Fm. Being courted when I have no interest is flattering but is not something I wish for because I have no interest and yet I wish to be polite and gentle when I decline, which requires energy. When I have interest, I respond better to invitation to court, or a positive response to continue to court. Being courted strongly even when I do have interest has at times pushed me away for sake of space (when the courting suggests mismatched interest levels) and for sake of feeling that the dynamic of dominance has been undermined (when the courting suggests overeagerness).

While male subs might not understand some of the situations dommes face from personal experience, I think they can achieve reasonable understanding through intelligent reasoning, communication, and relating to comparable experiences they have had.

I see incongruence in your posts here and elsewhere. You jump on Cloudboy for his comments on a specific behavior yet you extend and generalize models of behavior--which are inconsistent in themselves--against subs consistently: it goes against the submissive grain of male subs to approach dommes, male subs are too aggressive in their approach to dommes, male subs have no social graces when they approach dommes, male subs have poor social skills, male subs who offer service are chumps. I think your models do not reflect the type of analyses you reference here. And you suggest you have a tremendous general understanding of the male sub psyche which runs counter to my personal experience, observations, and intuition. I also disagree with your statistics.

You seem to attribute male submission as the cause of some negative behaviors you see. I think you are seeing behaviors that are generally distributed across people and your theory that male submission is the cause of a negative behavior you see is incorrect.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 10/17/2007 8:07:35 AM >

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RE: Dominant Expectations - 10/17/2007 8:02:02 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
1. A really hot Domme might actually generate the male attention outlined in the OP.

2. Femdoms (and also women) commonly play the "receiving" and "screening" position in courtship --- men revolve around them and they pick who is best. I have been told that this isn't exactly playing a passive role, and that I overstated the female need to be assertive and proactive.

I still think that to strike a man's heart, a woman (or Femdom) must communicate to him what she will do for him and what she will bring to the table. I still think its better to lead with this element as opposed to the "what I'm getting" one --- but I can agree to disagree here.

Re 1) Actually considering the domme to male sub ratio, hotness is not necessary.

Re 2) What you're forgetting when you think that a domme ought to outline what she would do is the fact that too many male subs already consider dommes as blow up dolls with floggers. By going on about what they will do, they perpetuate that delusion.

About the profile you quoted, seems highly romantic and I'm guessing she doesn't match the expectations that she sets out. Meaning she herself isn't gorgeous with a great job etc and equal to him. But her having unreal expectations isn't unusual. Lots of men with male pattern baldness and beer bellies think they still deserve a supermodel on their arms, even if they only work on a loading dock. There was a 50's Playhouse TV show on this I believe, about a middle aged butcher getting into a relationship with an ordinary spinster and getting derided by his buddies because he didn't hold out for somebody special even though he himself wasn't special.

Women have unreal expectations also. Sad because they could have good relationships with real people otherwise, but maybe they hold these unreal expectations as a way to avoid getting into relationships they aren't ready for.

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RE: Dominant Expectations - 10/17/2007 8:12:52 AM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

This is a good post. I'm on record, tho, as not envying your position. I am bascally uncomfortable with attentions or flirtations that lack connection-foundation. But I will agree that such fanfare would be good for the ego.

There is a chasm in our experiences. For the malesub the feeling is one of a steep climb, and for the femdom the feeling is one of rushing down a sliding board.

Malesubs wish it was easier to find someone, whereas femdoms probably wish the room was a little quieter.

quote:

MsLilac: But you know what, it really doesn’t matter what other people do, does it?

What other people do doesn't affect me directly, but it does matter to me. To some degree its like playing golf. When playing with someone who is continually hitting poor shots, although it doesn't affect my score, I do think about what he's doing wrong. I think I need to avoid those mistakes and those frustrations. If the guy is open to suggestions and I can make a helpful observation, I would do so.

As for being offended, that's really not where I'm coming from on this one. I'm incredulous.

The golf analogy is a bad one. You are commenting on a femdom's profile that you have nothing to do with and putting her down. To use the golf analogy, that's like sitting in the clubhouse pointing to what a woman is wearing out on the course saying, "Does she think she is going to attract a boyfriend by dressing like THAT?! What the hell is she thinking, she's obviously not right in the head." It's rude and gossipy, not helpful. And it's not really any of your business, nor do you have the ability to even determine if it's deluded on her part or not. And since you do not intend to ask her out anyway, why point out her outfit to other people to put it down?

I don't see you looking to offer her helpful suggestions. I see you looking for an opportunity to ridicule. I believe the word you used to describe her is "delusional."

Akasha

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RE: Dominant Expectations - 10/17/2007 9:14:44 AM

DiannaVesta

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I admit that I set my expectations high on purpose. Is it because I think it’s my birthright? Oh hell yeah I do! Lol I believe that I’m a Goddess and only interested in the people that believe it too.

It’s funny when I read some of the post here, especially from so-called submissive men that try to find some reasoning why a woman would want to give her essence to some dribbling dick weed in the first place. Its like you want us to have control then you want to explain to us how it’s supposed to be. You all flutter around to the image of the aloof, cold hearted Diva and then you turn around and call her unfair because her expectations are too high for YOU to meet.

I’m sorry I will hold out til the last leaves my body for the subs that adore and WORSHIP me. Absolutely!

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RE: Dominant Expectations - 10/17/2007 9:46:29 AM

MissAbby

Posts: 36
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Chicago suburbs
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
I still see the OP formula as a loser

First, you imply the type of submissive She is looking for doesn't exist; therefore, She is delusional, if I am understanding your posts correctly. In My experience, this type of man does exist, but the fact that he is not in your radar is not surprising.

Second, you do not understand yoni/ vagina worship as a valid meditation. Again, that's your perspective and characterizing this as a "Goddess Complex" certainly puts your own negative spin on this. As other posters have expounded on, there are many forms of Goddess worship and I respect that as a way to deepen submission.

Third, "you think it [the loser OP formula] has a place in the Madonna-Whore scenario." As if a person can't have a preference without having a complex or madonna-whore dichotomy... that's just amateur psychology.

Finally, you wrote, "there was the preposterous notion raised here that "what I think" is worthless because I don't "know anything""

Not trying to be offensive, but why would that opinion be worth anything?

your opinion has no real-world application in My experience.

Now if you wanted to ask questions in the name of "thoughtful analysis, reason, and theory" then that would be different.

Miss Abby

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RE: Dominant Expectations - 10/17/2007 10:17:20 AM

undergroundsea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta
I admit that I set my expectations high on purpose. Is it because I think it’s my birthright? Oh hell yeah I do! Lol I believe that I’m a Goddess and only interested in the people that believe it too.

It’s funny when I read some of the post here, especially from so-called submissive men that try to find some reasoning why a woman would want to give her essence to some dribbling dick weed in the first place. Its like you want us to have control then you want to explain to us how it’s supposed to be. You all flutter around to the image of the aloof, cold hearted Diva and then you turn around and call her unfair because her expectations are too high for YOU to meet.

I’m sorry I will hold out til the last leaves my body for the subs that adore and WORSHIP me. Absolutely!

It is fair for you to hold out for subs that adore and worship you. I recognize there are subs and dommes that seek the goddess worship dynamic. I enjoy a worshipful and adoring dynamic myself. However I think that dynamic can be manifested in more than one way.

I sense for you this dynamic is manifested in starkly unequal statuses and is based more on spirituality than on any form of a romantic relationship. For some people, the romantic component is more important than the spiritual component of the type you enjoy, at least for a long term relationship. Specifically, while I would enjoy the type of dynamic you seem to suggest it does not align well with my long term relationship goals. For me, BDSM would exist in a romantic relationship and the worshipful dynamic would be more in the realm of romantic love than in the realm of spiritual worship by multiple worshippers.

And so my philosophy might be different than the one you have. I feel that this difference in philosophy makes me different but not wrong. Subs who hold a different philosophy are not necessarily so-called subs.

I do feel I can expect a woman to give her essence to me in return for me doing the same--I think such reciprocation occurs with compatibility and mutual interest. I also think subs have some say in how the control is exerted, which also reduces to compatibility--two people who have similar ideas about how dominance and submission are respectively expressed are BDSM compatible. A sub who is seeking a romantic D/s relationship would not be compatible with a domme who wishes to exert control over a stable of subs without any romantic component. A sub cannot tell a domme that she must control him a certain way but he can tell a domme that he feels incompatibility.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 10/17/2007 10:24:38 AM >

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RE: Dominant Expectations - 10/17/2007 10:29:11 AM

DiannaVesta

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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

I sense for you this dynamic is manifested in starkly unequal statuses and is based more on spirituality than on any form of a romantic relationship. For some people, the romantic component is more important than the spiritual component of the type you enjoy, at least for a long term relationship.

Sea

I don't think you really understand the dynamic within female supremacy and that’s ok. Yes, it is spiritual but when the dynamic is correct then it’s VERY romantic. In fact although I can share my lifestyle with people and explore with them when it comes to my libido and primary relationships then it must be romantic & ALWAYS within the realm of female domination.

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RE: Dominant Expectations - 10/17/2007 10:40:43 AM

cloudboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

The golf analogy is a bad one. You are commenting on a femdom's profile that you have nothing to do with and putting her down. To use the golf analogy, that's like sitting in the clubhouse pointing to what a woman is wearing out on the course saying, "Does she think she is going to attract a boyfriend by dressing like THAT?! What the hell is she thinking, she's obviously not right in the head." It's rude and gossipy, not helpful. And it's not really any of your business, nor do you have the ability to even determine if it's deluded on her part or not. And since you do not intend to ask her out anyway, why point out her outfit to other people to put it down?

I don't see you looking to offer her helpful suggestions. I see you looking for an opportunity to ridicule. I believe the word you used to describe her is "delusional."

Akasha

GASP!! We disagree yet again. (GDG is laughing somewhere.) I see that we will have to play semantics here. Yes, I did use the word "delusional," but in the context I used it, it meant one having delusions (wrong perceptions, wrong assumptions, maybe wrong approaches) which is not per se ridicule. One either is or is not delusional --- its a factual thing --- not a character thing (stupid, idiodic, selfish, etc.)

If you look in the record, that's the whole purpose of this thread, to discuss whether maybe the OP description suggests delusion or not. (I don't care whether the person in particular is deluded.) To me, its a threshold issue.

My problems were with monarchial view of domination --- and the same way Thoman Paine had a problem with the divine right of kings, I have a problem with the whole birthright, I'm special, so you'll worship me thing. Like I said before, "Typically, a general audience laughs in unison at a person who regards herself as either a gift to the world, the opposite sex, or to a group of would be suitors. Here, though, folks (you in particular) seem to be siding against that general perception."

The Golf analogy is a good one, because I did offer my own view of how to better connect with submissive men in a LTR. Also, my problem was with the approach, attitude, and expecations in the OP. Its all there in the record.

If I had pulled a golf theory from her profile, "I lineup and hit the ball this way, and I expect to break 80," I could surely surmise whether I thought her approach was grounded or not. I might even say, "She's nuts if she expects to consistently hit the greens using low irons."

I don't really see that as ridicule.

Also, put me on record with Sea and Littlesarbon --- we malesubs do have a seasoned knowledge-base off which to work. We are allowed to comment on and characterize the femdom experience even though we are malesubs. As littlesarbonn said, "Your attitude makes the erroneous conclusion that if one cannot be victimized, then one cannot possibly understand such victimization."

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 10/17/2007 11:03:35 AM >

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RE: Dominant Expectations - 10/17/2007 10:52:02 AM

cloudboy

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That's totally fine Dianna, and I have to admit, that's what makes you special ---- but its not something that **I** relate to. I admitted a few posts back to maybe "not getting it."

You've been in arguments here, too, about female supremacy and such. And as you well know, claims of female supremacy usually start arguments about whether or not that creed is delusional thinking. Although I do not subscribe to female supremacy, I cannnot deny its sexy allure. (It does not hold much soulful allure to me, it fact it holds the opposite.) I could, though, be soulfully devoted to someone I regarded as personally superior.

Anyway, I will readilly admit and concede to anything that works, which is why I've basically never argued with you. You seem to have your own good thing going. But in general there are times when I must play the skeptic.

quote:

MissAbby: First, you imply the type of submissive She is looking for doesn't exist; therefore, She is delusional, if I am understanding your posts correctly. In My experience, this type of man does exist, but the fact that he is not in your radar is not surprising.

You are right, he's well off my radar. I think he's about as common as bigfoot.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 10/17/2007 11:00:50 AM >

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RE: Dominant Expectations - 10/17/2007 2:48:26 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta
I don't think you really understand the dynamic within female supremacy and that’s ok. Yes, it is spiritual but when the dynamic is correct then it’s VERY romantic.

I will readily acknowledge that your knowledge about female supremacy must be greater than mine.

I will add that I think there are different perspectives about female supremacy and my prior post was based on what I sense to be your take on female supremacy. I sense your definition is based on general female superiority and seeks to have men at a general lower status in an estate based on this concept. And, because you identify as lesbian, I sense your definition does not include a man as a primary lover.

Indeed worshipful devotion can be romantic. What is not clear to me is whether or how the romantic dynamic flows towards the man in the type of female supremacy I describe above.

In any case, when I speak of a romantic BDSM relationship for myself, I speak of one in which the two are primary romantic partners and companions who participate in everyday life as a couple. The relationship is both a D/s relationship and a mutual/reciprocated romantic companionship.

Cheers,

Sea

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