A Punishment Paradox (Full Version)

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Stephann -> A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 9:30:32 PM)

So I'm facing a bit of a curious spot, so charlotte and I thought we'd see what others had to say.

charlotte has a strong interest in the punishment aspect of D/s.  Very distinct from painplay or masochism, she enjoys being owned by a man who will punish her harshly, severely.  Yet she's also extremely pliant, obedient, and frankly I'm not a hard man to please.  So a question presents itself; if a slave's purpose is to obey, and part of her motivation to obey is to be punished, yet she's a good slave, and rarely needs that punishment exercised, what's to be done?

Scene's aren't the answer here, I don't think.  We do engage in pain play, but the psychological drive is very different there.  I don't see there being anything about being a 'bad' slave for wanting to be punished.  Nothing suggests that her desire comes from  a bad mental or emotional place; it's just a fundamental part of her personality.

I could certainly establish a greater degree of rules and structure, but I don't wish to stretch the warm, loving relationship we've established in the process.  I don't do the cold, distant thing well, and frankly I would imagine it to demand more of my time and energy than it should require on any level other than the occasional.

So.. any thoughts?  Anyone experience this sort of thing?

Thanks,

Stephan

p.s. A couple comments from charlotte as she read this;

"I like to be punished, but I don't want to be disobedient.  It's not a desire to be bratty."




kitttty -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 9:33:12 PM)

Give her a task that is useful to her, yet extremely difficult and then punish her for being inevitably unable to comply. This is what mine does.



octavia -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 9:39:16 PM)

Stephan,
I can relate to your Charolette!
I think punishment and disipline are the area's that I find myself craving as well.. 
Personally, for me a lot of it boils down to attention, ( I think?) and security.  I want to know that the man I am trusting is strong enouph, and smart enouph to handle me.  Discipline feels comforting in those ways.  It ensures that I can't pull the wool over his eyes, and it says to me that he cares enouph to pay attention. 

I will be paying close attention to this thread for sure!
oct 



trappedinamuseum -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 9:45:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

Give her a task that is useful to her, yet extremely difficult and then punish her for being inevitably unable to comply. This is what mine does.


I can't say I know much, or well anything about being punished, but I don't think being set up for failure in order to be punished is necessarily healthy for someone's psyche.  Just my thought though.



GoddessDustyGold -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 9:46:30 PM)

Although you say that "scenes" are not the answer, I am not sure how else to approach this particular need. 
Therefore I would suggest that you create a scene that charlotte doesn't know you are creating.  On occasion you might punish her for some minor infraction that really makes no big difference to you, but she will actually then feel that she is being punished, however that might occur.  If not the cold and distant thing (which I do quite well, when I am upset!  *Smile*) the perhaps pain play that is being offered up as punishment as opposed to pain play that is being offered up as an understood scene.  Aftercare is most likely necessary and if you feel it appropriate you could explain to her what you actually did for her.  You are then satisfied since you were in the mood for a pain play scene and she might be more satisfied since it was sprung on her as a surprise and in the guise of punishment.  In future situations, as long as she doesn't know when it is coming, then it might work out well, yet she still will have the deeper understanding that this is not a serious "displeasure" on your end.  Not really so different form the kidnapping scene or the interrogation scene.  It can be realistric enough to cause the thrill of the fright, yet at a deeper level the submissive still knows s/he is basically safe. 
No, I have not experienced this particular situation so I am flying by the seat of My pants here.
And perhaps someone else has a better idea.



BitaTruble -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 9:51:45 PM)

~FR~

I'm in the exact same mental place as Charlotte with regard to punishment. I don't ever want to do something which earns it, but when I do, I have the desire for it. There's a couple of reasons for that, as least as far as I'm concerned. Being punished means that I've acknowledged the error and Himself has the opportunity to correct the behavior which lead to the error. Once my punishment is over, my mind reads that as "I've been forgiven for my error," and I'm able to move on and not punish myself for screwing up. Himself did not put additional structures in place thereby giving me more opportunities to screw up. We simply work within his set parameters and I behave appropriately. Most of the errors I've made have been because I was thoughtless somehow and his punish of those behaviors has always fit the infraction I've committed. I never have to dwell on something once the punishment has been handed down and that leaves me to dwell on the good stuff.. like serving him the way I'm supposed to serve him rather than keep the focus on my own screw up.

Celeste



Stephann -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 9:53:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trappedinamuseum

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

Give her a task that is useful to her, yet extremely difficult and then punish her for being inevitably unable to comply. This is what mine does.


I can't say I know much, or well anything about being punished, but I don't think being set up for failure in order to be punished is necessarily healthy for someone's psyche.  Just my thought though.



I was thinking along the same lines, thanks A. 

DustyGold,

Actually, I've done this; but as I (obviously failed miserably in) explaining, that I can and have certainly raised the bar very very high temporarily, and punish her for small infractions; but this really does require an enormous amount of time and attention; a twenty minute meal becoming a three hour punishment ordeal.  Essentially, it becomes a contrived situation; with the same shortcomings as a scene, in that it is an artificial situation.

Truth be told, I don't think there's any one good answer to the situation, but I do appreciate all of the input so far.  She's hardly miserable in her collar, it's just a quirk of hers that we're both having a little trouble seeing a more effective solution to.

Regards,

Stephan





Ryeguy91 -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 9:55:33 PM)

quote:

Give her a task that is useful to her, yet extremely difficult and then punish her for being inevitably unable to comply. This is what mine does.


I'd disagree with setting her up for failure.  That would seem to me to be counterintuitive and end up putting a strain on the trust and bond she has for you.  Beyond that I'm not sure I understand your question. She desires punishment, yet she is well behaved?  I've never had that problem myself, instead having a sub disobey with the intent of getting what she wanted: physical pain in form of punishment.   Have you considered discipline as a reward? or a scheduled regimen?



trappedinamuseum -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 9:58:02 PM)

S-

Forgive my naivete,

Could you not just punish to punish?  Because it pleases you to do so?  Or, is that considered scening?



Stephann -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 10:01:15 PM)

quote:

She desires punishment, yet she is well behaved?


I agree; I've never encountered this type of desire.  I can rationally see where it's coming from (maybe on par with the concept of sticking pins in one's body, to relieve pain? LOL)  More seriously, I am guessing that she has a powerful drive to be made to fear and respect the person she serves (she nods as she reads me writing this between my hands) and that fear and respect encourage her to obey (as does her desire to please me, from a more emotional level.)  Yet without feeling the growl and bite from disobedience, she's left to wonder if there really are any teeth to those rules and expectations (more nodding.)  And, because she does love and care for me, emotionally, she's even further driven to obey - thus leaving her incapable of willingly disobeying me to a degree where she'd be punished for a transgression.

I can't imagine how this could be confusing to anyone.  [:D] (and yes, we're both laughing.)

Stephan



Tigrita -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 10:09:15 PM)

Oh come on now, she's such a sassy little cunt that she might change her mind about punishment if you started giving her sass back to her with the back of your hand!  Though I'm sure no one on these boards would believe it with all her sweet little posts and that innocent little flower girl avatar. 



SimplyMichael -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 10:10:06 PM)

quote:

  Essentially, it becomes a contrived situation; with the same shortcomings as a scene, in that it is an artificial situation. 


Deal with it!  Would you prefer that she WAS disobedient or that she failed you?  Careful what you wish for...

She wants to be punished, you want to take care of her, where is the problem.  Tell her she is a bad girl for oh I don't know, breathing or cumming or taking too long to blink or something and throw her over your knee and spank the living hell out of her and make her sit in the corner for a while.  When the puddle on the floor gets deep enough, order her to bed and ravish her.  Seems to work fine for me.



chellekitty -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 10:10:07 PM)

i've seen the "set up to fail" relationship dynamic work...but not when it was a need for punishment...it was a senario for play....

so i guess my question is....and maybe you have answered it, and i just didn't see it...why does she feel the need to be punished?  why can't this dynamic just be natural and ok? or if she has the need to feel physically dominated...can't that come without the psychological torture of "i have failed"?...going to stop here so as not to project any further....but yes....why does she feel the need to be punished?



Ryeguy91 -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 10:15:08 PM)

Hehe.  Let’s set different definitions here so there’s no confusion.  "Punishment" "Discipline" and "Scene"

I have always put prearranged, more elaborate (including more than just beyond corporal action) activities into the "scene" category, while "punishment" was given for disobedience, or failure, willful or not.  I never enjoyed punishing a slave because I see their failure as my own, being an extension of myself.  Punishment could include anything from physical pain, to timeout, to reduced/removed privileges.  "Discipline" on the other hand, I consider to be more of a 'pre-emptive' punishment.  Letting her know, on a semi- regular basis that "This is what I am capable of.  This is what happens when you disobey etc" But done as encouragement to NOT disobey.  Perhaps you could take time now and again to prove the “dog’s not all bark”  Plus without the disobedience/failure aspect, you both can have a lot more fun without the mind games that will undermine your relationship.  She gets what she wants, and shown in a tangible way why she respects and obeys you and your command, and you get peace of mind knowing you're not messing with her head and the joy of indulging yourself, without the disappointment that disobedience would bring.



Stephann -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 10:15:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

  Essentially, it becomes a contrived situation; with the same shortcomings as a scene, in that it is an artificial situation. 


Deal with it!  Would you prefer that she WAS disobedient or that she failed you?  Careful what you wish for...

She wants to be punished, you want to take care of her, where is the problem.  Tell her she is a bad girl for oh I don't know, breathing or cumming or taking too long to blink or something and throw her over your knee and spank the living hell out of her and make her sit in the corner for a while.  When the puddle on the floor gets deep enough, order her to bed and ravish her.  Seems to work fine for me.


Oh, it works great!  The trouble is she keeps crawling back for more.  I don't want to feel I need to spend six hours a night just for her to get her kicks [;)]  It's not just that she wants punishment; it's almost as if she needs it a LOT more than any other submissive or slave I've dealt with.

Thanks for the thoughts though.

Tigrita,

I'll let her know they're special delivery from you [:D]

chelle,

I've asked, and she doesn't seem to know.  Hence the confusion for us all.

Stephan



BossyShoeBitch -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 10:18:50 PM)

[sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif]
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

  Essentially, it becomes a contrived situation; with the same shortcomings as a scene, in that it is an artificial situation. 


Deal with it!  Would you prefer that she WAS disobedient or that she failed you?  Careful what you wish for...

She wants to be punished, you want to take care of her, where is the problem.  Tell her she is a bad girl for oh I don't know, breathing or cumming or taking too long to blink or something and throw her over your knee and spank the living hell out of her and make her sit in the corner for a while.  When the puddle on the floor gets deep enough, order her to bed and ravish her.  Seems to work fine for me.

It certainly does!



Daddysjezzy -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 10:21:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Deal with it!  Would you prefer that she WAS disobedient or that she failed you?  Careful what you wish for...

She wants to be punished, you want to take care of her, where is the problem.  Tell her she is a bad girl for oh I don't know, breathing or cumming or taking too long to blink or something and throw her over your knee and spank the living hell out of her and make her sit in the corner for a while.  When the puddle on the floor gets deep enough, order her to bed and ravish her.  Seems to work fine for me.


I agree with this, I dont think the fantasy is earning punishment, I think the fantasy is receiving punishment.  So you punish her for something really silly although you have to play the role of deeply disappointed Dom who thinks she needs severe discipline.  If you seem to take it seriously she can immerse herself totally in the fantasy and her needs will be met.  You both enjoy the experience and everyone is happy.   



Stephann -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 10:38:03 PM)

And that's what I get for sharing a computer...

- S



charlotte12 -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 10:39:11 PM)

Well i finally got my turn at the computer so i'll attempt to explain a little. I really don't want to dissapoint my Master (actually i hate dissapointing just about anyone i care about in my life.)  So i get these urges to be bratty or disobey in order to be punished but would be horribly upset with myself if i actually did something that upset him. I understand where chellekitty is coming from with her question about why i want to be punished but honestly i just don't know the answer. I do know that ever since i was very little i loved to imagine being punished and would go back and re-read the sections in books where someone was punished. It's not about the pain, i enjoy being spanked but its' a different kind of feeling. It's about the headspace it puts me in. I want to feel taken down a notch or two (or three .) I enjoy  feeling helpless and i get all wet and tingly when i'm threatened with something i do not enjoy (such as being made to taste soap for saying something i wasn't supposed to.) So it's not the activities that i crave, i can certainly get my share of pain play by asking nicely. I don't know if this craving for being put in my place comes from a negative place or not but it turns me on like almost nothing else and just seemed like a fun fantasy when i was younger so i don't remember it coming from negative feelings about myself. Believe me i have enough issues with guilt to recognize when that's the emotion driving it lol.

I think perhaps the more experience i gain in these areas the clearer i will become. I sometimes have a habit of trying to figure things out before i try them. Yeah...silly me...

Thank you all for your input. I have tried to write a post about this for quite a while but am always intimidated by the massive amounts of posts on punishment that always leave me feeling frustrated and like i'm not a good slave for craving it.

charlotte



charlotte12 -> RE: A Punishment Paradox (10/15/2007 10:41:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysjezzy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Deal with it!  Would you prefer that she WAS disobedient or that she failed you?  Careful what you wish for...

She wants to be punished, you want to take care of her, where is the problem.  Tell her she is a bad girl for oh I don't know, breathing or cumming or taking too long to blink or something and throw her over your knee and spank the living hell out of her and make her sit in the corner for a while.  When the puddle on the floor gets deep enough, order her to bed and ravish her.  Seems to work fine for me.


I agree with this, I dont think the fantasy is earning punishment, I think the fantasy is receiving punishment.  So you punish her for something really silly although you have to play the role of deeply disappointed Dom who thinks she needs severe discipline.  If you seem to take it seriously she can immerse herself totally in the fantasy and her needs will be met.  You both enjoy the experience and everyone is happy.   


See, this is why I don't think it works; because the desire stems from a desire of a 'real' punishment.  A fantasy punishment is abit on par with mud pies in this case.

Stephan



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