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BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/16/2007 11:14:46 PM

LASub4Real

Posts: 169
Joined: 1/10/2005
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I was sitting in a local cafeteria a few days ago and this woman was talking on her cell phone. It was one of those times when the cafeteria was too quiet and she was talking too loudly for me to miss hearing her entire conversation. The subject matter was quite personal. Basically, she was talking about a sexual experience with her boyfriend that had gone wrong. I'm not going to be graphic here, but suffice to say, he tried to get her to do something that she wasn't interested or comfortable with doing and now she was questioning whether she even wanted to ever see him agian!

Immediately the thought crossed my mind, "Well why didn't you put that down as a "hard limit," silly? Then I caught myself and almost laughed! Of course she hadn't negotiated limits—this was the vanilla world!

It was then that I thought to myself just how many things that we do every day might be so helpful not only in WIIWD but also in vanilla relationships. In other words, things the rest of the world could learn from BDSM.

1) I've already mentioned Negotiation. —Partners making out a list of sexual or relational likes, dislikes, or things they could be talked into doing in time but aren't ready to do today. Have you ever been in a vanilla relationship that would have benefitted from that kind of BDSM etic?

2) For example, how about Honest Agreement on Role's (regardless of gender) up front?
"Hi, Im interested in being in being the leader in a relationship. If you aren't the type of person who can follow my lead then we shouldn't even date." Imagine if most vanilla relationships could simply establish who wanted to be in control, and when. Oh, the senseless power struggles that might be avoided!

3) Or How about sexual Playdates? —Couples agreeing to get together (days or weeks ahead of time) usually dedicating several hours JUST for sexual exploration/play? Would the vanilla world be better off if more couples did even that much?

Do you agree with the examples that I've sited and are there any other examples where you can see where BDSM etiquette might benefit the vanilla dating world at large? I'd be very interested in hearing a range of opinions on this question.

Thank you,

LAsub

Post #: 1

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/16/2007 11:29:16 PM

spanklette

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Joined: 2/22/2005
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BDSMers have many fancy terms for communication...it seems more organized, but it's not...it's just fancy words.

< Message edited by spanklette -- 10/16/2007 11:36:26 PM >

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to LASub4Real)

Post #: 2

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/16/2007 11:38:39 PM

LASub4Real

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Joined: 1/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: spanklette

BDSMers have many fancy terms for communication...it seems more oreganized, but it's not...it's just fancy words.

I hear you spanklette, and thanks for your thoughts.

But don't you think that the communication is a little more structured on this side of the fence? I mean, do you know ANY new vanilla couples who will actually go through the trouble of making a list of of sexual LIKES/DISLIKES and then spend hours negotiating sometimes days before they even get in bed? My argument isn't that BDSM communication is always more honest or pure or whatever... just that the structure for more precise communication seems more defined.

LAsub

(in reply to spanklette)

Post #: 3

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/16/2007 11:46:29 PM

spanklette

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That's a huge assumption. Sure there are plenty of checklists and negotiations, but I think you're giving them more credit than they deserve. They only work if the people using them are honest...and here is my opinion rearing it's ugly little head...I think they actually hinder communication. Why limit yourself to negotiations and checklists? Somehow it just makes it seem more like a business deal.

I guess, to some extent, with casual partners it is a business deal...but if you're comparing a long term vanilla relationship to a long term D/s relationship, I don't see the difference. You either communicate well or you don't.

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to LASub4Real)

Post #: 4

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/17/2007 12:02:26 AM

LASub4Real

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quote:

You either communicate well or you don't.

Oh, I don't disagree with you, and believe me, I'm not under the illusion that checklists decrease dishonesty or the BS factor. If people lie about the questions on a list then it's better to have no list at all... it's a waste of time, yes? Just as if both individuals in a bad marriage don't want it to work, then marriage counselling won't achieve anything.

But if we can set that aside for a moment and move beyond the deceptive, to people who actually DO want to communicate better, I was just thinking that some of the tools in our collective toolbox aren't half bad at helping that process. Sometimes people just don't know how to communicate effectively but they can improve with a little help. Wouldn't you agree?

LAsub

(in reply to spanklette)

Post #: 5

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/17/2007 12:18:54 AM

spanklette

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Actually, I may be one of the few who thinks that the "tools in our collective toolbox" hinder communication. I think that they are over used, to the point that people don't actually talk. You mentioned power dynamics in your OP, but despite being what many involved in D/s seek...many vanilla couples are looking for an egalitarian relationship. The "tool box" often allows people to be too reliant on something objective when relationships are subjective entities.

Applause. Applause. We both like single tails...now let's get to it. Instead of, what makes you tick, too many people are asking what makes you squick.

I'm all for communication, but I don't think that BDSM has the market cornered on open communication. I guess, I don't think that BDSM is on autopilot for open communication just because we "define" power roles. Just ask someone around here about definitions...

I just don't see people involved in BDSM as having more open and honest communication than vanilla couples...no matter how much of a head start you think we have.

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to LASub4Real)

Post #: 6

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/17/2007 12:45:51 AM

LASub4Real

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Joined: 1/10/2005
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quote:

The "tool box" often allows people to be too reliant on something objective when relationships are subjective entities.

Well, for my part, I find your reponses to be intelligent and well articulated, and I respect your opinion even where I do not agree with all.
The test of the tool is in it's proper use, not it's misuse. After all, anything can be misused, and then the whole world becomes a hinderance.

But have you noticed that we've only been talking about the checklist aspect of my OP? How about things like planned Playdates and Role Definitions? Of course, there are certainly other aspects that I could think of... I could write an entire chapter of the idea of Referrals, for instance... but still remembering, as you've said, that wer're not claiming to "corner any markets" on anything.

My point is not that BDSMers have it all right and Vanillas have it all wrong. Mine is simply an observation of practicality—or in other words a study of the science of what works, no matter who came up with the mechanics of it.

LAsub

(in reply to spanklette)

Post #: 7

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/17/2007 5:23:16 AM

Dari

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Joined: 10/8/2007
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The one place where I see the BDSM world having it "more right" than vanilla, is that we all spend quite a bit of time figuring out what makes us tick. Not just sexually, though that's a big area, but in terms of relationships - what makes us happy, what doesn't. Communication should and will happen in any relationship, but I think we have a head start not because of communication, but because we have to know ourselves a bit better than your average vanilla person.

Communication's great, but if you don't know what or how to communicate to your partner, it's not going to get you anywhere.

(in reply to LASub4Real)

Post #: 8

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/17/2007 5:44:37 AM

Missokyst

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Joined: 9/9/2006
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Considering that nilla's have been getting together and sticking for a longer time than most kink couples they must be doing something right. Communication is spread out over time. I would bet that couple are probably having some angry quiet, or serious discussion about that sex act right about now. Not because it is in the contract, but because they probably have been working around finding out who they are as people and what they like sexually. Instead of being contractually bound they are actually talking. Wierd.
As for playdates and role definitions well.. they have spontaneous sex and their roles are defined as part of a couple. I don't have to have the tag sub hanging from my arm to know I like to please. And anyone who has been together a while knows life often interferes with play dates. Pretty soon you have a non structured sex life like everyone else and do things because.. heh.. things pop up.

I haven't really met too many people who know themselves more than the average nilla person. They just know their sexuality which is a small part of who we are. I would imagine nilla's stumble through and keep doing things till they find what works to flip their switches.. Hmm... hours of sexual experimentation to see what gets them off.. hmm.. is that bad?
We aren't better than any other way. Just different.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: LASub4Real

quote:

But have you noticed that we've only been talking about the checklist aspect of my OP? How about things like planned Playdates and Role Definitions? Of course, there are certainly other aspects that I could think of... I could write an entire chapter of the idea of Referrals, for instance... but still remembering, as you've said, that wer're not claiming to "corner any markets" on anything.

My point is not that BDSMers have it all right and Vanillas have it all wrong. Mine is simply an observation of practicality—or in other words a study of the science of what works, no matter who came up with the mechanics of it.

LAsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dari

Communication should and will happen in any relationship, but I think we have a head start not because of communication, but because we have to know ourselves a bit better than your average vanilla person.

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to LASub4Real)

Post #: 9

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/17/2007 6:02:10 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LASub4Real

It was then that I thought to myself just how many things that we do every day might be so helpful not only in WIIWD but also in vanilla relationships. In other words, things the rest of the world could learn from BDSM.

You are making the assumption(and also insinuating) that BDSM relationships are 'different' and better than non BDSM ones. Which would be wrong.

quote:

1) I've already mentioned Negotiation. —Partners making out a list of sexual or relational likes, dislikes, or things they could be talked into doing in time but aren't ready to do today. Have you ever been in a vanilla relationship that would have benefitted from that kind of BDSM etic?

Healthy non BDSM relationships already do that.

quote:

2) For example, how about Honest Agreement on Role's (regardless of gender) up front?
"Hi, Im interested in being in being the leader in a relationship. If you aren't the type of person who can follow my lead then we shouldn't even date." Imagine if most vanilla relationships could simply establish who wanted to be in control, and when. Oh, the senseless power struggles that might be avoided!

That's also done.

quote:

3) Or How about sexual Playdates? —Couples agreeing to get together (days or weeks ahead of time) usually dedicating several hours JUST for sexual exploration/play? Would the vanilla world be better off if more couples did even that much?

Yup - 'they' do that as well.

quote:

Do you agree with the examples that I've sited and are there any other examples where you can see where BDSM etiquette might benefit the vanilla dating world at large? I'd be very interested in hearing a range of opinions on this question.

I don't disagree with them, but I disagree with the thought that these only seem to apply to BDSM relationships and that those in long term non BDSM relationships never have this kind of thing. This list you have 'conceived' is nothing new to healthy stable relationships. If you believe in otherwise, that isn't the fault of the relationship or what kind of relationship it is, but the 'fault' of the people within the relationship. If you find that you only have good communication - and that is basically what you/we are talking about here with someone in a BDSM relationship, it isn't the BDSM that makes the relationship stable, it is the partner you are with. If you think that BDSM relationships have the edge on so called 'vanilla' simply because they do the above, then your just plain misunderstanding the whole concept of relationships.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to LASub4Real)

Post #: 10

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/17/2007 6:14:08 AM

MistressEmelye

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LASub4Real, I agree that you have a point, but you are generalising far too much. As Darcyandthedark says, most of these things apply to healthy non-BDSM relationships. There appears to be a modern trend of moving in and out of relationships very quickly, in the BDSM and vanilla worlds. Perhaps this is where you are seeing the lack of communication in a couple. However, in the huge majority of well-functioning, cooperative relationships, both vanilla and alternative, you will discover that the people involved in the relationship take the time to discuss who's in charge (for example, who will pick up the kids from school etc.) and also whether something in the bedroom pushes them mentally or physically. Playdates are also realised: have you not heard of couples checking in to a hotel under false names to get that sense of risk and adventure? Hiring a babysitter to look after the kids whilst Mum & Dad have some "quiet time"?

That's just my two pennies. I think you are correct in saying that a lot of relationships suffer from a lack of the things you mention, however this is true both of vanilla and alternative lifestyle relationships. And whilst I also agree the world would benefit from knowing a bit more about BDSM instead of being so terrified of it, I don't think it's for the reasons you mention. I think it's for the same reasons that the world needed to know women could be equal to men and that gay men weren't suddenly going to bugger you in the street. You know, raising awareness and understanding. People hate the things they're scared of, and usually the things that scare people are things they don't understand. That's why people hate death, for example. Or new cultures.

< Message edited by MistressEmelye -- 10/17/2007 6:15:27 AM >

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 11

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/17/2007 6:14:52 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: LASub4Real

It was then that I thought to myself just how many things that we do every day might be so helpful not only in WIIWD but also in vanilla relationships. In other words, things the rest of the world could learn from BDSM.

You are making the assumption(and also insinuating) that BDSM relationships are 'different' and better than non BDSM ones. Which would be wrong.

quote:

1) I've already mentioned Negotiation. —Partners making out a list of sexual or relational likes, dislikes, or things they could be talked into doing in time but aren't ready to do today. Have you ever been in a vanilla relationship that would have benefitted from that kind of BDSM etic?

Healthy non BDSM relationships already do that.

quote:

2) For example, how about Honest Agreement on Role's (regardless of gender) up front?
"Hi, Im interested in being in being the leader in a relationship. If you aren't the type of person who can follow my lead then we shouldn't even date." Imagine if most vanilla relationships could simply establish who wanted to be in control, and when. Oh, the senseless power struggles that might be avoided!

That's also done.

quote:

3) Or How about sexual Playdates? —Couples agreeing to get together (days or weeks ahead of time) usually dedicating several hours JUST for sexual exploration/play? Would the vanilla world be better off if more couples did even that much?

Yup - 'they' do that as well.

quote:

Do you agree with the examples that I've sited and are there any other examples where you can see where BDSM etiquette might benefit the vanilla dating world at large? I'd be very interested in hearing a range of opinions on this question.

I don't disagree with them, but I disagree with the thought that these only seem to apply to BDSM relationships and that those in long term non BDSM relationships never have this kind of thing. This list you have 'conceived' is nothing new to healthy stable relationships. If you believe in otherwise, that isn't the fault of the relationship or what kind of relationship it is, but the 'fault' of the people within the relationship. If you find that you only have good communication - and that is basically what you/we are talking about here with someone in a BDSM relationship, it isn't the BDSM that makes the relationship stable, it is the partner you are with. If you think that BDSM relationships have the edge on so called 'vanilla' simply because they do the above, then your just plain misunderstanding the whole concept of relationships.

the.dark.

Ditto

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 12

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/17/2007 6:32:43 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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Anyone who thinks that "role definitions" are clearer in bdsm relationships than vanilla in general hasn't sat through a "sub vs slave" discussion.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 13

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/17/2007 6:51:31 AM

Maya2001

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From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
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quote:

Immediately the thought crossed my mind, "Well why didn't you put that down as a "hard limit," silly? Then I caught myself and almost laughed! Of course she hadn't negotiated limits—this was the vanilla world!

Even in terms of BDSM this does not always work , BDSM covers a lot of ground , some activities are fairly common where others are not, if you are not aware of those rarer activities existing as part of BDSM, chances are you are not going to have them included as hard limits. then there are those that are exploring new heights/territories of play so again your unlikely to have then included as hard limits

_____________________________

Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 14

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/17/2007 7:13:07 AM

Celeste43

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From: NYS
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If everybody who does what we do actually communicated as well as we talk about communication, then nobody would ever break up, there would be no velcro collars, nobody would get HNG emails that show there was no reading of profiles, etc.

This woman you overheard was lacking what a lot of people, in and out of BDSM lack, boundaries. She lacked the self knowledge to know what was acceptable to her and what wasn't. And lacked the ability to say "what part of no don't you understand". But there's a lot of that here, just read all the posts from subs who entered into an agreement that it would be a monogamous relationship and then a month or two in, the dom's attempting to break the agreement because he's the dom and therefore she has to do what he says.

(in reply to Maya2001)

Post #: 15

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/17/2007 7:21:58 AM

LASub4Real

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Joined: 1/10/2005
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Wow! Thanks for all of the interesting and thoughtful responses!

I'm slipping in this quick thought before I'm off two work and dissappear behind my company's inpenetrable firewall for some hours.

I'm talking about a level of deree, not assuming that Vanilla relationships don't ever negotiate, but simply that the negotiations aren't as formal nor are they quite as widespread as they are in WIIWD.

It's like a friend of mine who has an elaborate system for paying bills that includes a series of special envelopes and ledgers... all part of a system he bought somewhere. Now for a moment. let;s just assume that it's a good sysem (like he says it is) and that it works.

If I were to say that in his household, they've developed (or use) a more advanced system of personal money management than most people I know, it's it doesn't follow that I'm assuming that other people don't manage their money at all does it? It also doesn't mean that if a person buys the system and then procedes to use it improperly that they will be any beter off than the average Joe.

So you see, I'm only talking about a measure of degree or complexity rather than arguing that BDSMers Negotiate but Vanilla's do not.

OK gotta get out of here for work!

LAsub

(in reply to Maya2001)

Post #: 16

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/17/2007 7:26:47 AM

AquaticSub

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Joined: 12/27/2005
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~Fast Reply~

I honestly don't think our communication is that much better or magical. It's not like a dominant has never screwed up, pushed his girl into doing something that he thought she would be ok with and caused her to crash like hell and question her relationship with him. As far as trying new things goes, I think the vanillas are in a "better" position as they may say no at any time. Subs/slaves are not always in that position. Sometimes that is for the good, but sometimes it is for the bad.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 17

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/17/2007 7:31:23 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressEmelye

LASub4Real, I agree that you have a point, but you are generalising far too much. As Darcyandthedark says, most of these things apply to healthy non-BDSM relationships. There appears to be a modern trend of moving in and out of relationships very quickly, in the BDSM and vanilla worlds. Perhaps this is where you are seeing the lack of communication in a couple. However, in the huge majority of well-functioning, cooperative relationships, both vanilla and alternative, you will discover that the people involved in the relationship take the time to discuss who's in charge (for example, who will pick up the kids from school etc.) and also whether something in the bedroom pushes them mentally or physically. Playdates are also realised: have you not heard of couples checking in to a hotel under false names to get that sense of risk and adventure? Hiring a babysitter to look after the kids whilst Mum & Dad have some "quiet time"?

That's just my two pennies. I think you are correct in saying that a lot of relationships suffer from a lack of the things you mention, however this is true both of vanilla and alternative lifestyle relationships. And whilst I also agree the world would benefit from knowing a bit more about BDSM instead of being so terrified of it, I don't think it's for the reasons you mention. I think it's for the same reasons that the world needed to know women could be equal to men and that gay men weren't suddenly going to bugger you in the street. You know, raising awareness and understanding. People hate the things they're scared of, and usually the things that scare people are things they don't understand. That's why people hate death, for example. Or new cultures.

I agree with most replies but I enjoyed this one the best.

I think all healthy relationships have good communication and our life as spanklette wrote that I often think is so dead on we just create fancy words for something and too many times raise it above other relationship types.

In my local community days and communicating with people on the other side I see no difference between the level of outward conversation and agreement. I still see a significant amount that hang on the word natural and want mind readers from both sides in this life instead of talking and sharing things. I could not count the number of times I have heard a similar conversation that the OP overheard from a kink couple.

These relationships have nothing different in this area of communication. Two people reluctant to share things mentioned by the OP will often play guess what I want or desire. Two people who share things like this will communicate this easily and if one of the persons in the relationship stresses communication and the other has issues sharing will be a constant work in process.

There are plenty of people uptight afraid to let go/share “dark” desires in this life and there are plenty of regular people who have no problem in talking, sharing and indulging in sexual things as well.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to MistressEmelye)

Post #: 18

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/17/2007 7:40:40 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline

quote:

I'm talking about a level of deree, not assuming that Vanilla relationships don't ever negotiate, but simply that the negotiations aren't as formal nor are they quite as widespread as they are in WIIWD.

I just have to disagree here. First in my relationships outside of the learning curve negotiations are not present and I would not even call them negotiations. I would venture to guess most people in power exchange relationships outside of trying new things do not negotiate but more or less just do.

Just like regular couples will talk about trying new things this is negotiation as well. We may be more formal but the process is the same. You do not just go ahead and do anal on a woman without asking or hinting up a storm for example in a regular relationship. Anything new or different is almost certainly discussed and negotiated by regular couples.

I was involved in a couple of swinging communities that were power exchange free and I saw no difference in negotiations between a couple there then people negotiating in public type play in this life as well.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to LASub4Real)

Post #: 19

RE: BDSM Rules Help Vanilla Relationships? - 10/17/2007 8:05:16 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

You are too wrapped up in seperating relationships into neat little catagories instead of realising that all relationships are unique.

quote:

But don't you think that the communication is a little more structured on this side of the fence?

quote:

So you see, I'm only talking about a measure of degree or complexity rather than arguing that BDSMers Negotiate but Vanilla's do not.

Not even slightly.
Negotiation is not more structured just because you stick on 'BDSM' or 'Kinky' onto the end of relationship. It isn't more formal. The people involved in the relationship are what makes a relationship what it is - not the orientation. If someone feels more able to communicate just because the relationship is BDSM and they can't any other relationships in their lives - that says far more about the person or the baggage that they carry, than the structure.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to LASub4Real)

Post #: 20

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