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Ethics - 10/17/2007 8:19:00 AM

Termyn8or

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Joined: 11/12/2005
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Now I am here faced with something in real life once again. I have mentioned some of my escapades in the past, but this is the here and now, and at the moment, I get no sleep.

This is sort of like the story where two crooks get nabbed and each is offered immunity for ratting the other out, but this is in reverse.

Right now, well actually as of Novenber twentieth, I will be faced with a hard decision. A friend of mine did something illegal for me and now faces jail time over it. Nobody was hurt, it involved getting me license plates. He now has a charge on him for that. We all owe enough lawyers, and now I find out there is mandatory jail time.

I am who I am, and he has been paid continually for his risk, but I, the payer did not realize that there was mandatory jail time. The way it stands now is that I might get charged with stealing my own car. We might not be talking any skinny little year anymore.

This changes the whole equation. The whole situation, and I gotta tellya this guy is a good friend. He told me on the phone this morning to not go, that he can handle the three days, especially if that's all it is. But then he has a girlfriend, olady acually who is disabled and has an unruly twenty year old son. Those three days could be hell for her. He said it's OK, that he is ok with doing the three days, that it is more important for me to go to work than his three days, because he is not working right now.

He told me not to go, but friends as good as that, there is a piece of me that does not want to let it happen. If in jail for a few days, he still gets unemployment or whatever, if I go to jail I make nothing. Even though I bring home about 1,900 a month part time and only have forty seven cents in my pocket, my bills are paid, on time, every month. He makes a good case, really, but what kind of Man am I if I let them put him in jail for this ?

Welcome to my rock and hard place. For very good reason I cannot let them put him in jail for this, and for very good reason I can't go to jail. This is very similar to the old story, scenario I mentioned, but like in reverse.

I don't know what to do.

T

Post #: 1

RE: Ethics - 10/17/2007 8:22:09 AM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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..........when in doubt, take it on the chin. In my opinion it is better for an individual to take responsibility than to allow someone else to pay their tab.........it may be very difficult but ultimately you'll sleep better.........

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 2

RE: Ethics - 10/17/2007 8:25:23 AM

boytoy4female

Posts: 103
Joined: 8/10/2006
Status: offline

Obviously, the problem is not ethics for you. It is that you have no ethics. There is no gray area for ethics. What kind of person with ethics would put a friend at such risk?

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 3

RE: Ethics - 10/17/2007 8:26:20 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

You`re both involved.Let him do the three.He might be out in one.

Send him to the Caribbean for two/three weeks.You`ll both feel better and it`ll put this behind you.

This is a solid friend and should never be let go.

I wish I had more friends like yours. Don`t risk his friendship ,ever again.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 10/17/2007 8:28:52 AM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 4

RE: Ethics - 10/17/2007 8:28:31 AM

slaveluci

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
He told me on the phone this morning to not go, that he can handle the three days, especially if that's all it is. But then he has a girlfriend, olady acually who is disabled and has an unruly twenty year old son. Those three days could be hell for her. He said it's OK, that he is ok with doing the three days, that it is more important for me to go to work than his three days, because he is not working right now

At this point, I personally think the best thing to do is do what he wants. If he truly would prefer you to keep working and thereby help him out financially instead of doing the time yourself, then that's what I would do. Perhaps he or his girlfriend have someone in their family or circle of friends that can help her out while he's gone those few days.

The whole situation stinks and, as you know, should have never happened. That's irrelevant at this point. It has happened. All you can do is make it clear to him that you will do the time if he wishes. However, if he wishes you to keep working and let him do it so you can help him out with a few bucks, then make sure he knows you'll do that as well.

Suggest to him finding someone he can trust to help his lady out while he's away and, if you live close enough, you go over when you can and make sure all's well, see if she needs anything, etc. That's about all you can do at this point. Let him decide. Good luck to you all................luci

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(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 5

RE: Ethics - 10/17/2007 8:34:07 AM

slaveluci

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: boytoy4female

Obviously, the problem is not ethics for you. It is that you have no ethics. There is no gray area for ethics. What kind of person with ethics would put a friend at such risk?

Pardon me, but that is a very assumptive and short-sighted statement. "Obviously" he has "no ethics?" How in the world are you coming to that conclusion? There cetainly IS a HUGE "gray area for ethics." Those who can only see black and white miss a whole lot. People with ethics sometimes make bad decisions. They aren't exempt. It wasn't smart for either of them to do something criminal but I'm assuming the friend is a grown man as well. I don't think the OP placed a gun to his temple to get him to do what was done. If so, that wasn't included in the story

.

I didn't get the feel that the OP "put" his friend "at risk." Seems two adults did something they shouldn't have and now one is going to pay the piper by spending a minute in jail. Who should it be? That's the OP's whole point here. You appear to be assuming that anyone who makes a wrong choice like the OP did has no ethics. Not true at all..........................luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to boytoy4female)

Post #: 6

RE: Ethics - 10/17/2007 8:36:29 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

What kind of person with ethics would put a friend at such risk?

One with no crystal ball?

He's asking about an ethical dilemma relevant to changing the future, not the past.

And on that note, to the OP, how do you know that doing the noble thing would actually get your friend off the hook, as opposed to sending you both up...with the possibility of an addditional consiracy charge in there somewhere?

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 10/17/2007 8:37:10 AM >

(in reply to boytoy4female)

Post #: 7

RE: Ethics - 10/17/2007 8:38:50 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline

I've never been in a situation like this so cannot 100% say what i would do.
I would hope though that i would face up to my responsibilities in the situation and stand along side him.
Good luck in making your decision and whichever way you decide to go i hope it works out.

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(in reply to slaveluci)

Post #: 8

RE: Ethics - 10/17/2007 8:40:05 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

Hmmmm.

Problem with you fessing up as well, is that then the charge goes to "conspiracy to", surely? Potentially more serious, with more serious penalty attached, for both of you. And I should imagine that GTA isnt as serious as conspiracy to defraud an insurance company, which is what I read.

If your friend is OK to do the time - he's a big boy presumably and knew he was doing wrong? Then thats the way to play it I'd say. But make damned sure you make it up to him, and make damned sure his wife is looked after whilst he's inside.

E

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(in reply to slaveluci)

Post #: 9

RE: Ethics - 10/17/2007 8:44:12 AM

MrrPete

Posts: 614
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline

Are you saying that IF you had known your "friend" wouldn't get mandatory jail
time that you would NOT have asked him to break the law?

Maybe you should have thought of the consequences alitle harder for BOTH of you.

Well, talk to a lawyer, Criminal lawyer. Ask what the consequences FOR YOU
will be if you come forward.

Is this a first offense for your friend?

Then get some principles and take your consequences kie a man.

Remember he didn't have to say yes to getting the plates for you so that's HIS
problem but now you need to take care of your responsibility.

BTW 3 days isn't difficult

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Awrabest,

Mr. Pete

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(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 10

RE: Ethics - 10/17/2007 9:27:42 AM

Viridana

Posts: 754
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Do what will make you feel better for the long run.

(in reply to MrrPete)

Post #: 11

RE: Ethics - 10/17/2007 9:29:53 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

come on you of all people know how the mafia, or government organized crime works LOL

They would take care of his ole lady, give him a few bucks, beers and a big steak dinner.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/17/2007 9:31:37 AM >

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(in reply to MrrPete)

Post #: 12

RE: Ethics - 10/17/2007 11:08:50 AM

Rule

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Joined: 12/5/2005
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Stay away from the cops and the courts! Your friend is willing to do the time, so let him. Keep your own nose clean.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 13

RE: Ethics - 10/17/2007 11:23:32 AM

SeeksOnlyOne

Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline

dont do the crime if you cant do the time.....

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it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 14

RE: Ethics - 10/17/2007 11:23:35 AM

seeksfemslave

Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline

I would need more specifics to offer my opinion ie what really happened?
I dont really want to know any way
You could give us a clue if you liked. lol

Nearly all criminals say nobody got hurt or they didn't mean it to go that far.or it was an accident things like that.

Three days seems like a waste of tax payers money to me. Better off cleaning graffiti or something like that.
You didnt "accidently" type 3 days when you meant 3 years did you ?

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 15

RE: Ethics - 10/17/2007 10:23:07 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

seeks you ask for details, I will get to you momentarily. For now I will deal with this.

"Obviously, the problem is not ethics for you. It is that you have no ethics."

If that were true this post would not exist, and it really is that plain and simple. I know what we did was illegal, but it was not wrong. Noone got hurt and there was no undue risk put on anyone, unless you consider jail a risk.

boytoy, if you are the type who thinks what is legal is moral, and what is illegal is immoral, get ready for one hell of a life. That simply is not how it is.

Now, seeks it is your turn. Here is what happened.

In 1995 I got a DUI in my livingroom. I was extremely beligerent over this and bitched out and fired my lawyer, one of the best in the city. Things went downhill from there.

In 1996 I and a friend decided that we were going to Vegas. We were drunk as hell and really just needed a room, which is what we were told at the bar we almost got into a big fight at.

In 1995 I was very beligerent, I got a DUI in my fucking house. This is ridiculous. I was home, the fact that I was there should say something about my competence at the time.

In 96 it was different. I fully admit that I should not have been out there. I was too drunk. I fully admit that.

I would've taken my licks but see I had a DUI in 1991. This was within five years, and the requirements, which in the past I had always paid and got legal, becaame too stiff. It was too much.It actually became cheaper and more efficient to just take care of problems as they happen.

That is what happened in 04, I got busted by this tinhorn dictatorship over here and bought my way out of it. Twenty three hudred dollars later it was gone. At the point we changed names on the car.

This is where this guy comes in, my friend.

I told him straight out at the onset of this deal that this is a first degree misdemeanor in this state, and the max is a thousand fine and six months. I also told him that he was very unlkikely to suffer that much, or any jail tiome at all on the first offense, and that is when I explained that he can only do it once. He has some degree of culpable deniabillity. But only once.

And they know who was driving "his" car, which is actually my car. They want me, because I do have a history of coming up with the fine money. Not this time, but they don't know that yet.

So to cap all of this : 1995 busted after getting home, literally in my own living room.

1996 Two counties away. I have no defense for that onje, I deserved that one. I was wasted. I made a mistake.

This is 2007 and it seems there is no statute of limitations on this. OK fine. I will act accordingly.

The next person who gets me plates will know all about the possible ramifications. They have been selected. I have no choice but to do this.

Believe me, I have no choice but to do this.And if anyone thinks I do not have ethics, somebody smack them back to babyhood, maybe we can prevent the brain trauma. If I didn't have any ethics, this thread would not exist. I would just blow all this off.

But I don't.

T

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 16

RE: Ethics - 10/17/2007 10:46:12 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

You both got involved in it, and you both should handle the situation together. If it is determined he is going to take it all, then that is what happens. If it is a good friend, then there is no score card, and neither of you owe a thing. You both give your loyalty freely. You have to look into your own virtues/morals/ethics and resolve it. If there is shame involved, then face it and learn from it. Guilt is a useless emotion. You both need to decide this.

Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 17

RE: Ethics - 10/18/2007 12:03:35 AM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

CONSIDER THIS ENTIRE THREAD ANECDOTAL.

OK, now, I reply to everybody else, in the more personal fashion.

"..........when in doubt, take it on the chin. In my opinion it is better for an individual to take responsibility than to allow someone else to pay their tab.........it may be very difficult but ultimately you'll sleep better......... "

You might not percieve this right now, but I totally agree.

"Send him to the Caribbean for two/three weeks.You`ll both feel better and it`ll put this behind you.

This is a solid friend and should never be let go."

Yes, if he goes and not me, presents his corpus delecti for incarceration, goes through all that, he is in for a big favor. SERIOUS big favor.

"At this point, I personally think the best thing to do is do what he wants. If he truly would prefer you to keep working and thereby help him out financially instead of doing the time yourself, then that's what I would do."

He will NOT, under any circumstnces be working off a fine. The full resources available to me are available to him. But if the sentence includes time, there is no way I can replace it.

"People with ethics sometimes make bad decisions."

Thank you for your kind words, but I fully admit that I knew it was illegal. I tried to fully inform him. I told him it was a first degree misdemeanor which in this state is six months and a thousand dollars. I never heard about mandatory jail until now, but I can't refute it. It will not be easy to pay him back his time.

"And on that note, to the OP, how do you know that doing the noble thing would actually get your friend off the hook, as opposed to sending you both up...with the possibility of an addditional consiracy charge in there somewhere?"

You are right, if the court even catches a whiff of colluion between us, it is over.

"imagine that GTA isnt as serious as conspiracy to defraud an insurance company,"

There was no accident, no DUI, no nothing like that. It was peeling tires (a long story), loud music (country) posession of a joint and being not legal. I forget the rest.There was not any damage to anything that night, I simply hit the gas a bit too hard turning into a gas station. I rear wheel drive would've never spun the wheels. They did not take me to jail but they did tow the car.

"Are you saying that IF you had known your "friend" wouldn't get mandatory jail
time that you would NOT have asked him to break the law? "

That's not law, but I don't want to digress into that, let's just suppose it is law. If/wouldn't ? I think you screwed up a little there, but I get what you mean. The answer is yes, but I would've let him know. We had been doing this for some time, things chasnged in the interim.

"come on you of all people know how the mafia, or government organized crime works LOL "

There is no mafia, how many times do I have to tell you ?

"Stay away from the cops and the courts! Your friend is willing to do the time, so let him. Keep your own nose clean."

My nose is far from clean. I started this and now I have to finish it.

"dont do the crime if you cant do the time..... "

No problem.

"Nearly all criminals say nobody got hurt or they didn't mean it to go that far.or it was an accident things like that. "

Yeah well, it didn't go that far.

Damn me for what I am and what I have done, only.

T

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 18

RE: Ethics - 10/18/2007 12:06:27 AM

laurell3

Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

What kind of person with ethics would put a friend at such risk?

One with no crystal ball?

He's asking about an ethical dilemma relevant to changing the future, not the past.

And on that note, to the OP, how do you know that doing the noble thing would actually get your friend off the hook, as opposed to sending you both up...with the possibility of an addditional consiracy charge in there somewhere?

exactly. don't do anything until you talk to an attorney, your confession may not save him but just hurt you both further.
l

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 19

RE: Ethics - 10/18/2007 12:10:56 AM

laurell3

Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

CONSIDER THIS ENTIRE THREAD ANECDOTAL.

OK, now, I reply to everybody else, in the more personal fashion.

"..........when in doubt, take it on the chin. In my opinion it is better for an individual to take responsibility than to allow someone else to pay their tab.........it may be very difficult but ultimately you'll sleep better......... "

You might not percieve this right now, but I totally agree.

"Send him to the Caribbean for two/three weeks.You`ll both feel better and it`ll put this behind you.

This is a solid friend and should never be let go."

Yes, if he goes and not me, presents his corpus delecti for incarceration, goes through all that, he is in for a big favor. SERIOUS big favor.

"At this point, I personally think the best thing to do is do what he wants. If he truly would prefer you to keep working and thereby help him out financially instead of doing the time yourself, then that's what I would do."

He will NOT, under any circumstnces be working off a fine. The full resources available to me are available to him. But if the sentence includes time, there is no way I can replace it.

"People with ethics sometimes make bad decisions."

Thank you for your kind words, but I fully admit that I knew it was illegal. I tried to fully inform him. I told him it was a first degree misdemeanor which in this state is six months and a thousand dollars. I never heard about mandatory jail until now, but I can't refute it. It will not be easy to pay him back his time.

"And on that note, to the OP, how do you know that doing the noble thing would actually get your friend off the hook, as opposed to sending you both up...with the possibility of an addditional consiracy charge in there somewhere?"

You are right, if the court even catches a whiff of colluion between us, it is over.

"imagine that GTA isnt as serious as conspiracy to defraud an insurance company,"

There was no accident, no DUI, no nothing like that. It was peeling tires (a long story), loud music (country) posession of a joint and being not legal. I forget the rest.There was not any damage to anything that night, I simply hit the gas a bit too hard turning into a gas station. I rear wheel drive would've never spun the wheels. They did not take me to jail but they did tow the car.

"Are you saying that IF you had known your "friend" wouldn't get mandatory jail
time that you would NOT have asked him to break the law? "

That's not law, but I don't want to digress into that, let's just suppose it is law. If/wouldn't ? I think you screwed up a little there, but I get what you mean. The answer is yes, but I would've let him know. We had been doing this for some time, things chasnged in the interim.

"come on you of all people know how the mafia, or government organized crime works LOL "

There is no mafia, how many times do I have to tell you ?

"Stay away from the cops and the courts! Your friend is willing to do the time, so let him. Keep your own nose clean."

My nose is far from clean. I started this and now I have to finish it.

"dont do the crime if you cant do the time..... "

No problem.

"Nearly all criminals say nobody got hurt or they didn't mean it to go that far.or it was an accident things like that. "

Yeah well, it didn't go that far.

Damn me for what I am and what I have done, only.

T

How else would you explain it other than collusion? Do nothing until you talk to an attorney. This is a mess already, you will only make it worse by acting without seeking counsel, and, believe me, they cannot fix it then.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 20

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