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Square table - 10/22/2007 2:42:47 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		On any given day there is at least one if not several threads that focus on punishment.  One would suspect that well behaved submissive/slaves are rarely found.  One could assume that there are few viable relationships where the dominant’s authority is not challenged on a regular basis. One could start to believe that a workable D/s dynamic is the exception rather than the rule.
I do ‘get it’, sort of.  I understand that negative consequences are built in and enforced when necessary in many unions. What I don’t get is why we seem to fixate on the pessimistic view that the submissive will fuck up and will do it often. I don’t understand this preoccupation with ways to handle what might go wrong rather than sharing how and why things go right. 
The proverbial straw that has led to my meltdown is the latest thread posed as a round table discussion (and god help us, he lists it with a number one as if to hint there will be additional ‘fun’ in future posts.)  It’s a game, the OP says.  It will be fun, he says.. Play along, he says.  He will pick a submissive crime and invites responses for “serious as well as funny” ideas on punishment.  It makes me sad, as well as a little angry because it comes across as so much anticipatory……glee.

Is it really that uncommon for a dominant to clearly state the rules and expectations, the submissive to agree, and both of them abide by their obligations within the relationship?

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise
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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 2:47:11 PM   
pinkme2


Posts: 236
Joined: 8/17/2007
Status: offline 		Being truly corrected is a seriously upsetting thing for me.

Being "punished" for play is... or can be erotic.  BUT... I have to know that it's not serious, that I've not disappointed. 

(in reply to catize)
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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 2:49:22 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Equally sad that so many sadists only feel it's okay to indulge their desires if someone has done something to somehow merit it. Almost abusive in the way it comes across. "If you hadn't disobeyed then I wouldn't have had to blacken your eye".

And gives all the power over to the sub because it was her action that started everything. All the dominant is capable of doing is reacting, never in charge of himself or making a decision on his own.

But what do I know, my collar has been on for only four plus years and I never get punished, we just talk things out.

(in reply to catize)
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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 2:51:44 PM   
daddysliloneds


Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline 		i think some people can't handle or won't admit their own need/desires to be sadistic, so they end up calling it something else, like punishment. because otherwise it'd take all the fun out of things for them!

(in reply to catize)
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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 2:55:56 PM   
bostontwo


Posts: 43
Status: offline 		Meh. So what if the dominant is gleeful thinking of a punishment? If they enjoy trading ideas, then good for them. Many dominants just like doing painful things to people, and "punishment" is a common pretense. It may seem pessimistic, as if taking joy from someone's failure, but I'm sure success in whatever task was given could be turned into an excuse for pain as well, if that's what they're into. Nothing wrong with that, per se, it's just what turns them on.

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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 2:58:56 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Sure, if it's understood it's play. We do some naughtly schoolgirl rp for fun. But playing with someone's head, making them feel guilty or incompetent just to give yourself an excuse to indulge in your sadism is the sign of a piss poor dominant.

(in reply to bostontwo)
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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 3:01:24 PM   
daddysliloneds


Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline 		no shit; i agree!!!!!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

Sure, if it's understood it's play. We do some naughtly schoolgirl rp for fun. But playing with someone's head, making them feel guilty or incompetent just to give yourself an excuse to indulge in your sadism is the sign of a piss poor dominant.


(in reply to Celeste43)
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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 3:05:21 PM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

Is it really that uncommon for a dominant to clearly state the rules and expectations, the submissive to agree, and both of them abide by their obligations within the relationship?


I came to submission later in life and have only been involved with ... mm ... men who have some experience (that is to say older men) who have not been into meting out punishment for the sake of punishment, unless it was a relatively playful thing.

(in reply to catize)
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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 3:16:02 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		We agreed from early on, when we began talking in earnest, that punishment wouldn't be a large part of our lives.  I don't want to be bad, and he doesn't want to be the bad guy.  He tells me to do something, and I do it.  Its all very simple.  If I don't feel I can do it right away, am uneasy with the request or something like that, I say something.  If I've done something he doesn't like, he brings it to my attention and I do what I can to take care of it.  Again, the simplicity of it all can't be disputed. 

I can think of so many other things to do besides being bad and getting punished.  Every once in a while I envy the bad ones (something thats been an issue with me since I was a kid) because they seem to get so much more attention, but me and Master talk when the feeling arises.  I'm like "I wanna be controlled" and he's like "You don't need it."  And, I'm like, "Its not fair. I still wanna be controlled...why do I have to need it?"  And, he's still like, "You don't need it."  So, I switch gears, and am like, "How about punishment?" but he's still like, "You don't need it."

I've noticed over time that he's gotten much better at feeding my need for attention that, I think, underlies my envy of the bad ones and I'm much more comfortable being the obedient, compliant slave I seem destined to be.


_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


(in reply to catize)
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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 3:32:03 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		preoccupation with ways to handle what might go wrong
In the relationship i have with Sir there is no preoccupation with ways to handle what goes wrong. There is only one way i am punished and that is by the cane. There is only one certain cane used.
why we seem to fixate on the pessimistic view that the submissive will fuck up and will do it often.
I don't see any fixating on it *shrugs*. I don't think it is a pessimistic view to think that a sub will fuck up either, everyone fucks up. Will do it often? Well again i havent really seen that assunption here.
Is it really that uncommon for a dominant to clearly state the rules and expectations, the submissive to agree, and both of them abide by their obligations within the relationship?
No, but there are times when things go wrong and i will fuck up and the only real way to deal with my fuck ups is to punish me. Talking it through doesn't really work but 2 strokes of the cane will virtually guarantee i wont make that mistake again.
 
Where punishment is concerned i think it is an each to their own. If you choose not to punish, thats cool. If you choose to punish, thats all good too.
 
Celeste
But what do I know, my collar has been on for only four plus years and I never get punished, we just talk things out.
If it works for you thats great, it doesnt work for me though.
But playing with someone's head, making them feel guilty or incompetent just to give yourself an excuse to indulge in your sadism is the sign of a piss poor dominant.
Im confused here. Are you saying that every Dom who punishes only does it to indulge in sadism?
If you are then i would have to disagree. Sir can be as sadistic as He wishes with me, he has and feels no need to hide His sadistic tendencies behind a facade of me needing to be punished. If anything Sir gets nothing out of punishing me other than a better behaved me.
 

 
 

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to catize)
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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 3:40:28 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

But playing with someone's head, making them feel guilty or incompetent just to give yourself an excuse to indulge in your sadism is the sign of a piss poor dominant.
Im confused here. Are you saying that every Dom who punishes only does it to indulge in sadism?


By no means. I am saying that there are men and women who are poor dominants, who are conflicted about their sadism and therefore set chaotic and contradictory rules that cannot be obeyed because they cannot acknowledge to themselves or their partner that they want to hurt someone. That they need to frame it as punishment and therefore set up the sub to fail in order to always have such an excuse.

I am not saying that every dominant is sadistic nor every sadist is dominant. Nor that every dominant sets up their sub to fail. Just that some do. And like the op, I'm tired of the constant 'how to punish' threads which always reveal the op as an incompetent top. Most subs want their dom/me's to be happy. We want to do the right thing. And will do so if given an orderly environment wherein we can do the right thing.

(in reply to missturbation)
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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 3:44:22 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Thanks Celeste, i didn't think i was reading you right - doh me

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to Celeste43)
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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 4:08:59 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

  In the relationship i have with Sir there is no preoccupation with ways to handle what goes wrong. 


To clarify I was not addressing individual relationships.  My thoughts were related to the forums in general (here as well as other sites.)

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to missturbation)
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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 5:34:02 PM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

Equally sad that so many sadists only feel it's okay to indulge their desires if someone has done something to somehow merit it. Almost abusive in the way it comes across. "If you hadn't disobeyed then I wouldn't have had to blacken your eye".


Almost abusive in the way it comes across, to you, Celeste.

Can you make room in your thinking that for a given couple the thing you describe might be absolutely lovely? Deeply meaningful? Cathartic? Hot? And if it is,why should you bother yourself to take the time to stand in such negative judgement of the things which work for that couple?

I suspect that there might be things in your relationship about which a lot of citizens might say "it comes across as abusive." Are they right? Or do you and your partner have standing to decide what you want to engage in, what is positive and meaningful for you, respectively?

The "had to" language you suggest rings false for me, personally, but then in the course of administering psychological or emotional pain, sometimes the false ring of a thing can add just just the right touch of nausea to a moment. Maybe you aren't into that. Maybe you don't get it. That's okay with me. I won't post about what a bad kinkster you are for having different gifts than mine.

quote:

But what do I know, my collar has been on for only four plus years and I never get punished, we just talk things out.


So after four years, you are certain that your way is superior and other ways are inferior. That is how this bit comes across. To me.

For the record: there are submissives for whom interminable "sensitive talk torture" has become a hard limit. May a thousand flowers bloom.


(in reply to Celeste43)
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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 5:45:22 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Punishment, discpline, correction...just a few of the many tools some folks use to sculpt their relationship dynamic.  Some utilize these tools quite well, and others do not.  I suspect many of the threads seen which inquire about punishment are created by those who are in fairly new relationships, and/or who are uncertain how to use the various tools available to them.  Often times as relationships mature, the workings within it become more seamless and there is less "figuring out" to do.  Since it is less likely that these folks will start a thread just to say, "Hey everyone, just wanted you to know we had another great day here with this well oiled machine" you will find more threads from others, along the lines of asking advice.

Perhaps the scale is not quite as tipped as you believe, but the perception of it is, due to the nature of discussion boards like this.

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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 5:47:54 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		For every thread we have that "glorifies" punishment, I bet I could find one that brings punishment down to the lowest common denominator.

They kind of balance each other out honestly.



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(in reply to catize)
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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 5:55:38 PM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

Sure, if it's understood it's play. We do some naughtly schoolgirl rp for fun. But playing with someone's head, making them feel guilty or incompetent just to give yourself an excuse to indulge in your sadism is the sign of a piss poor dominant.


Why must you see it as an excuse? Why couldn't those things simply be carefully chosen (out of desire, not need) structural elements of a scene, or a relationship?

And for heaven's sake. Once again, Celeste, a piss-poor dominant, for you. And for many others too, I'm sure. So what?

Here are three proposals which I think any reasonable person should accept at face value:

1. I would be a piss-poor dominant for someone or other.

2. You would be a piss-poor submissive for someone or other.

3. One plus two does not entail either that you are a piss-poor submissive, nor that anyone who enjoys the kinks you abhor is a piss-poor dominant simply for that reason.

You are familiar with the term Sensation Play. Some kinky people indulge in sensations which are not generally thought of as positive or healthy, like a stingy behind. In the right context, for the people involved it may be very positive, very healthy, as I suspect you might agree.

The right context will vary from couple to couple and from time to time,presumably.

Can we achknowledge that there are emotional and psychological sensations as well as physical ones? What does guilt "feel like" to you? Whatever those sensations are, it seems plain that you don't want to explore them. That is completely cool. You have other gifts. All the best to you. Can it be okay with you if someone else does want to explore those feelings?

How does incompetence feel to you? Can you not imagine someone else fetishizing that set of feelings?

It doesn't matter too much to those who fetishize those feelings whether you can imagine it or not. But will you consider refraining from this "my kink is okay, someone else's kink is piss-poor" sort of talk, just because you don't get their kink?



(in reply to Celeste43)
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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 6:02:02 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Since it is less likely that these folks will start a thread just to say, "Hey everyone, just wanted you to know we had another great day here with this well oiled machine" you will find more threads from others, along the lines of asking advice.    


Good point!  Much like the news, reporters don't tell us what has gone right in the world.

quote:

  Perhaps the scale is not quite as tipped as you believe, but the perception of it is, due to the nature of discussion boards like this.


My scale did tip today  ~heh~ but I'm better now.  Thanks, Owned for the reality check.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 6:21:31 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hey there catize, you're welcome and I'm glad it helped!  And for what it's worth, I had another great day in my well oiled machine....

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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 6:51:11 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

  And for what it's worth, I had another great day in my well oiled machine....  


Worthy of a banner headline in my opinion!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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