Communication (Full Version)

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PryderiLoup -> Communication (10/24/2007 6:25:53 PM)

In several threads I have seen people telling others to communicate.  Communication is  wonderful thing, and important in every relationship. We all agree that it is more important in D/s than in most walks of life.

Unfortunately, telling someone to communicate is like setting down all the ingredients to bake a cake, and telling the to bake it. Some people will have a lot of experience, and get right to work. Others may have only eaten cake before, and while they know you mix a bunch of stuff together and put it in the oven, they have no idea how to get started.

I thought I would put down a couple of things I have learned over the years, and hope that others can add some helpful thoughts. I do not have any sort of degree that makes me an expert in this, but I know a bit about it. Of course, these will come from a dominants perspective.

First, if you want your submissive to communicate with you, she has to feel safe. That means you have to check your emotional reactions at the door. If something makes you hurt, sad, afraid, or angry, that is ok, and in many cases, it is okay to say so. But you cannot react emotionally. You cannot judge what she says, or accuse.

Second, it is often best to make sure that nothing else is going on to distract you. As a dominant, you need to listen intently. That is hard if the TV is going, the dog needs to be feed, you know, life.

I have often told my submissive how to alert me when she needs to communicate seriously… It might be a phrase, or a word. Something that works for her and me.

Finally, and this one is hardest for me, don’t interrupt. I have a tendency to think I know what someone is going to say, and answer before they have a chance to say it, especially if I like what I am hearing. I know that seems weird, but I have other mechanisms when I feel defensive.

I would love to hear from submissives how they cope with letting their dominants know when they need to talk about something. I have found that sometimes I don’t hear when someone needs to talk seriously, and try to set it up so that she can.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Communication (10/24/2007 6:36:40 PM)

(Large generalizations ahead)  Doms need to stop always trying to be a problem solver and take care of things.  Doms also need to feel safe and secure in order to have healthy communicate.  Doms have to be sincerely willing to see their faults and mistakes and make changes in how things work.

Doms have to not care so much if their subs get irrationally upset.

Most subs cope by hiding it away, asking strangers, or acting out in order to get attention.  It doesn't really work out, but it's how it is.

Sadly most of us were never taught good solid communication skills growing up and the only way to learn and get good at it is the same as with everything- awareness and practice.  The more you do it, the easier it gets.




Level -> RE: Communication (10/24/2007 6:53:20 PM)

Buy Radical Honesty, and read it with your submissive.
 




IrishMist -> RE: Communication (10/24/2007 7:19:27 PM)

quote:

Communication is  wonderful thing, and important in every relationship. We all agree that it is more important in D/s than in most walks of life.

Sorry, but no; I do not agree with this. Communication is important ALWAYS, in every aspect of life.
quote:

  First, if you want your submissive to communicate with you, she has to feel safe. That means you have to check your emotional reactions at the door. If something makes you hurt, sad, afraid, or angry, that is ok, and in many cases, it is okay to say so. But you cannot react emotionally. You cannot judge what she says, or accuse.


The bolded area. How is that going to make he/she feel safe? Personally, I would withdraw from someone who 'checked' their emotions at the door.

quote:

  I would love to hear from submissives how they cope with letting their dominants know when they need to talk about something. I have found that sometimes I don’t hear when someone needs to talk seriously, and try to set it up so that she can.

I used to just be upfront and say 'Master, I have a problem"
Simple, to the point, and it got his attention right away.

Why do people go out of their way to make things more difficult than they really are?
[:o]




chellekitty -> RE: Communication (10/24/2007 7:25:19 PM)

Communication is always important...in fact...if you're having a problem with yourself...its probably because your not listening to yourself...

the main problem that i have seen with communication is not that people aren't talking or opening up....its that the other person isn't listening or hearing what the other person is saying...thats the other half of communication, you know? for complete communication, you have to have one person giving the communication and one person recieving the communication...its amazing how these things work....




Emperor1956 -> RE: Communication (10/24/2007 7:33:12 PM)

"People talk about how difficult it is to communicate.  I wish that people who can't communicate would just shut up." -- Tom Lehrer




angelikaJ -> RE: Communication (10/24/2007 7:54:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

"People talk about how difficult it is to communicate.  I wish that people who can't communicate would just shut up." -- Tom Lehrer


nice!
aJ




PryderiLoup -> RE: Communication (10/24/2007 7:56:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

Communication is  wonderful thing, and important in every relationship. We all agree that it is more important in D/s than in most walks of life.

Sorry, but no; I do not agree with this. Communication is important ALWAYS, in every aspect of life.

Never said it wasn't ALWAYS important... Just more important when someone's wellbeing is on the line. As someone who has worked as a soldier, firefighter, EMT, I can attest that yes, some times are more important than others

quote:

quote:

  First, if you want your submissive to communicate with you, she has to feel safe. That means you have to check your emotional reactions at the door. If something makes you hurt, sad, afraid, or angry, that is ok, and in many cases, it is okay to say so. But you cannot react emotionally. You cannot judge what she says, or accuse.


The bolded area. How is that going to make he/she feel safe? Personally, I would withdraw from someone who 'checked' their emotions at the door.

Okay, we have a reading probem here... This is twice. I did not say that you needed to check your EMOTIONS at the door, but your emotional REACTIONS. To be more clear, you cannot react in a way that is dictated primarily by emotions. ( I also bolded and highlighted the parts that should have given you a hint, here)

quote:

quote:

  I would love to hear from submissives how they cope with letting their dominants know when they need to talk about something. I have found that sometimes I don’t hear when someone needs to talk seriously, and try to set it up so that she can.

I used to just be upfront and say 'Master, I have a problem"
Simple, to the point, and it got his attention right away.

This is great, and the way it should be. However, I can tell you from both sides of the fence that sometimes subs don't/can't say that, and that sometimes doms are to blind to hear that. Took me a long time to realize that last part! [;)]

quote:


Why do people go out of their way to make things more difficult than they really are?
[:o]

Apparently, it isn't as easy as it seems, for everyone.




daddyncherry -> RE: Communication (10/24/2007 8:09:57 PM)

This is a real hot button issue with me, especially as of late.

chellekitty makes a great point about the two sides of communication....the old adage about having two ears and one mouth (so that you can listen twice as much as you speak) comes to mind.

Other common communication issues are...

*talking AT others.... One person ends up not being heard and there is no real communication to speak of.

* Being selfish....One's perspective will most likely be very different than another's. (due to life experience, personality and other issues)...failing to see another's point of view won't get you anywhere.

* Not really "hearing" what someone else is trying to say.... People hear from their perspective, from their experience and the words i use when i speak of something may mean something completely different to me when i say them than when someone else hears them.....Therefore their interpretation is very different from my intended meaning. (this happens with my Daddy and i ALL the time...he will say that he has told me something 500 times...and yet i still have not understood his meaning....i will speak to him and yet he hears things as he does and my meaning is totally lost to him)....THIS IS A BIG thing for us and i would imagine alot of other people.

i could go on and on but i won't

(sorry if i really didn't get to an actual point...just some thoughts)




PryderiLoup -> RE: Communication (10/24/2007 8:33:30 PM)

quote:

* Being selfish....One's perspective will most likely be very different than another's. (due to life experience, personality and other issues)...failing to see another's point of view won't get you anywhere.

This whole point of perspective, you touched on it twice, is great. I am new in Louisianna, and a friend told me to follow a road until it dead-ended. Then turn left.... Where I am from a dead end means just that. The road stops!

A better example comes from Covey's book, 7 Habits. A man was sitting on a subway when father came in with two children. The father sat down and completely ignored the children while they ran around the subway car... People were getting frustrated as the children jostled people, yelled and bumped news papers. Their father was apparently totally unaware of the childrens behaviors. The man was angry at the father's rudeness and lack of discipline.

Finally the man caught the father's attention and pointed out, rather abruptly, what was going on. The father looked up, a little like a deer in the headlights... "I am sorry, he said. My wife just died, and I guess I wasn't paying enough attention."

The point here is that we don't know everything, how someone is feeling, what their perceptions are, exactly what their mood is at the time. Over the years we can get close to that, but we never really know.




IrishMist -> RE: Communication (10/24/2007 8:40:15 PM)

quote:

Never said it wasn't ALWAYS important... Just more important when someone's wellbeing is on the line. As someone who has worked as a soldier, firefighter, EMT, I can attest that yes, some times are more important than others

No, you said , and I quote
“ We all agree that it is more important in D/s than in most walks of life”
And I disagreed.
Communication is always important; it does not matter more in a D/s relationship.
Being a soldier, firefighter, or EMT has very little to do with being in a D/s relationship; I fail to see why you would even bring that up.
quote:

  Okay, we have a reading probem here... This is twice. I did not say that you needed to check your EMOTIONS at the door, but your emotional REACTIONS. To be more clear, you cannot react in a way that is dictated primarily by emotions. ( I also bolded and highlighted the parts that should have given you a hint, here)


Emotions; emotional reactions… one and the same when it comes right down to it. Most people in life react to emotions of some kind; they are what drive us to do the things that we do. In a relationship, for someone to become a cold, calculating, unemotional robot; with the idea that it will somehow make them more able to concentrate on communication… the idea is ludicrous and dangerous.
I think you are confusing natural emotions with images of raging anger; to the point that a person is unable to think clearly. Two different things totally.

Relationships of any kind are hard; D/s and M/s are no easier or harder than any other kind. It totally boggles my mind when someone tries to insist that these kind of relationships need more or take more to make them work.

Committment, communication, and the knowledge that no one is perfect is all that is needed. Nothing more and nothing less.




PryderiLoup -> RE: Communication (10/24/2007 9:08:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

Never said it wasn't ALWAYS important... Just more important when someone's wellbeing is on the line. As someone who has worked as a soldier, firefighter, EMT, I can attest that yes, some times are more important than others

No, you said , and I quote
“ We all agree that it is more important in D/s than in most walks of life”
And I disagreed.
Communication is always important; it does not matter more in a D/s relationship.
Being a soldier, firefighter, or EMT has very little to do with being in a D/s relationship; I fail to see why you would even bring that up.

Okay, it seems that you do not want to listen... Perhaps we are having our own communication problem? [;)] I AGREE THAT COMMUNICATION IS ALWAYS IMPORTANT. Does that help?

And I bring up the life experiences because they demonstrate times when the importance of communication is at a premium. It is more important to communicate when you have a sick child than when you are discussing a TV show.

quote:

quote:

Okay, we have a reading probem here... This is twice. I did not say that you needed to check your EMOTIONS at the door, but your emotional REACTIONS. To be more clear, you cannot react in a way that is dictated primarily by emotions. ( I also bolded and highlighted the parts that should have given you a hint, here)


Emotions; emotional reactions… one and the same when it comes right down to it. Most people in life react to emotions of some kind; they are what drive us to do the things that we do. In a relationship, for someone to become a cold, calculating, unemotional robot; with the idea that it will somehow make them more able to concentrate on communication… the idea is ludicrous and dangerous.
I think you are confusing natural emotions with images of raging anger; to the point that a person is unable to think clearly. Two different things totally.

Nope, I am not confusing these things at all. I am saying, again, that you must RESPOND IN A MANNER THAT IS NOT PRIMARILY DICTATED BY EMOTIONS.

quote:

Relationships of any kind are hard; D/s and M/s are no easier or harder than any other kind. It totally boggles my mind when someone tries to insist that these kind of relationships need more or take more to make them work.


Look, D/s relationships take more effort to make work than other kinds. I insist. If you have the skills to make this type of relationship work without any more effort, I applaud you. That is not the case with everyone, certainly not me. I have had to examine my motives, my behaviors, and my interpersonal skills to become better at being a dominant. I believe (and yes, it is my belief, and a generalization) that most of us have had to do that to be what we want to be.
Many of the people I referenced in my OP were responding to new or young people. The point of this post was to help those people look at and consider one aspect of growth.
If my OP is of no value to you, fine. I have a feeling that it is of little value to a lot of the more experienced posters here. But it boggles MY mind that you feel the need to pick apart the OP. I do not understand that. But, this is a public forum, so you have the right to post what you will.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Communication (10/24/2007 9:37:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PryderiLoup
Look, D/s relationships take more effort to make work than other kinds. I insist. If you have the skills to make this type of relationship work without any more effort, I applaud you. That is not the case with everyone, certainly not me. I have had to examine my motives, my behaviors, and my interpersonal skills to become better at being a dominant. I believe (and yes, it is my belief, and a generalization) that most of us have had to do that to be what we want to be.

So you would tell me to my face at a Ds event that all the people there in Ds relationships are working harder than I am at my vanilla relationship?

Would you like to tell my sister when her husband dies that at least she didn't have to work as hard as a sub/dom relationshp?




PryderiLoup -> RE: Communication (10/24/2007 10:08:02 PM)

quote:

So you would tell me to my face at a Ds event that all the people there in Ds relationships are working harder than I am at my vanilla relationship?

Would you like to tell my sister when her husband dies that at least she didn't have to work as hard as a sub/dom relationshp?

Stated that way, you are right. I cannot say that all of anyone are anything. I have not met them all. I admit that I did not include the usual net caveat that this was a generalization.

The answer to your broader question would depend on 2 things, LA

1) If I thought it were true... And you could very well work as hard or harder on your vanilla relationship as others do on D/s

2)Our relationship, yours and mine. I would have to know that we could talk about it and not hate each other afterwards. Also that we would listen to each other. I have read many of your posts, and your profile. I respect you so I THINK my answer is "Yes", again depending one #1

If most people asked the same question, the answer would be "No. It ain't worth it."





susie -> RE: Communication (10/25/2007 12:09:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL:PryderiLoup

quote:

ORIGINAL: PryderiLoup

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

Never said it wasn't ALWAYS important... Just more important when someone's wellbeing is on the line. As someone who has worked as a soldier, firefighter, EMT, I can attest that yes, some times are more important than others

No, you said , and I quote
“ We all agree that it is more important in D/s than in most walks of life”
And I disagreed.
Communication is always important; it does not matter more in a D/s relationship.
Being a soldier, firefighter, or EMT has very little to do with being in a D/s relationship; I fail to see why you would even bring that up.

Okay, it seems that you do not want to listen... Perhaps we are having our own communication problem? [;)] I AGREE THAT COMMUNICATION IS ALWAYS IMPORTANT. Does that help?

And I bring up the life experiences because they demonstrate times when the importance of communication is at a premium. It is more important to communicate when you have a sick child than when you are discussing a TV show.

quote:

quote:

Okay, we have a reading probem here... This is twice. I did not say that you needed to check your EMOTIONS at the door, but your emotional REACTIONS. To be more clear, you cannot react in a way that is dictated primarily by emotions. ( I also bolded and highlighted the parts that should have given you a hint, here)


Emotions; emotional reactions… one and the same when it comes right down to it. Most people in life react to emotions of some kind; they are what drive us to do the things that we do. In a relationship, for someone to become a cold, calculating, unemotional robot; with the idea that it will somehow make them more able to concentrate on communication… the idea is ludicrous and dangerous.
I think you are confusing natural emotions with images of raging anger; to the point that a person is unable to think clearly. Two different things totally.

Nope, I am not confusing these things at all. I am saying, again, that you must RESPOND IN A MANNER THAT IS NOT PRIMARILY DICTATED BY EMOTIONS.

quote:

Relationships of any kind are hard; D/s and M/s are no easier or harder than any other kind. It totally boggles my mind when someone tries to insist that these kind of relationships need more or take more to make them work.


Look, D/s relationships take more effort to make work than other kinds. I insist. If you have the skills to make this type of relationship work without any more effort, I applaud you. That is not the case with everyone, certainly not me. I have had to examine my motives, my behaviors, and my interpersonal skills to become better at being a dominant. I believe (and yes, it is my belief, and a generalization) that most of us have had to do that to be what we want to be.
Many of the people I referenced in my OP were responding to new or young people. The point of this post was to help those people look at and consider one aspect of growth.
If my OP is of no value to you, fine. I have a feeling that it is of little value to a lot of the more experienced posters here. But it boggles MY mind that you feel the need to pick apart the OP. I do not understand that. But, this is a public forum, so you have the right to post what you will.




I think IrishMist did indeed listen to you. You clearly said "we all agree that it is more important in D/s than in most walks of life" She disagreed as do I. A D/s relationship is no more special or difficult than any other kind of relationship (same sex partner, vanilla,etc). They all take communication and work to make them successful. If you think a D/s relationship is harder work than any other I suggest you go and talk to some people in relationships not in D/s. They will also tell you how hard it is to make a relationship work. How important the communication is.

Examining behaviour and interpersonal skills happens in all relationships. It is part of how 2 people become a couple.

Suggesting that D/s relationships are so much "better" or "more difficult" than any other type of relationships is one the things I find most annoying. I am sure my parents who are about to make it to 50 years of marriage, having gone through some amazingly hard times, would be insulted if their relationship had been easier.




PryderiLoup -> RE: Communication (10/25/2007 3:34:04 AM)

quote:

I think IrishMist did indeed listen to you. You clearly said "we all agree that it is more important in D/s than in most walks of life" She disagreed as do I. A D/s relationship is no more special or difficult than any other kind of relationship (same sex partner, vanilla,etc). They all take communication and work to make them successful. If you think a D/s relationship is harder work than any other I suggest you go and talk to some people in relationships not in D/s. They will also tell you how hard it is to make a relationship work. How important the communication is.

Examining behaviour and interpersonal skills happens in all relationships. It is part of how 2 people become a couple.

Suggesting that D/s relationships are so much "better" or "more difficult" than any other type of relationships is one the things I find most annoying. I am sure my parents who are about to make it to 50 years of marriage, having gone through some amazingly hard times, would be insulted if their relationship had been easier.



Ok, I can agree that all relationships are equally difficult. Hell, I gravitated to D/s first because I thought it would be easier, given my personality. I found out, that for ME it was harder, took more work, etc... Perhaps if I had worked harder in my vanila relationships, I would still be in one of them!

I will not concede that communication is equally important in both types of relationships, however. I simply believe that the dynamics and trust that is required to maintain a strong D/s relationship make communication more important than in a vanilla relationship. Of course, I again made the mistake of making a generalization by saying we ALL agree that communication is more important... That is obviously not the case. I would have done better to say that I felt this way, and made my case from there.

As far as being "better" I have never maintained that. It is "better" for me, but my best friend would never do well in D/s, on either side. It would clearly not be better for him. Please don't paint me with too broad a brush here! [;)]

As far as IrishMist is concerned, she either misinterpreted or misread me in two important places, first assuming that I did not feel communication was important, and second that I felt in order to communicate you needed to check you emotions at the door. I did not state that at all, but did state that emotional reactions, later clarified to be reactions dictated primarily by emotions, needed to be check at the door.

In any event, thank you for the civil response. In the future I will speak for myself, which is a position I can defend much more effectively. [:D]




wisteriaV -> RE: Communication (10/25/2007 4:34:40 AM)

We all respond to what people say wheather good, bad or indifferent. In my view if you can not connect with another person in which you have any form of relationship then said relationship won't work no matter how minor, major or in between.[8|]




IrishMist -> RE: Communication (10/25/2007 4:43:13 AM)

quote:

Nope, I am not confusing these things at all. I am saying, again, that you must RESPOND IN A MANNER THAT IS NOT PRIMARILY DICTATED BY EMOTIONS.

And I would have to ask you WHY. Why would you think it is imperative that you NOT respond in a way that is dictated by emotions? She makes you happy with something she did, you respond to that; she upsets you, you respond to that.
Explain to me so that I can understand why you feel it is so important that you keep emotions in check at a time like this. Explain it to me because I am truly not understanding what you are saying here.
quote:

  Look, D/s relationships take more effort to make work than other kinds

I call bullshit when I see it. D/s and M/s DO NOT take more effort than other kinds. That’s an insult to anyone who has been with another for any length of time who does not identify as D/s or M/s. In addition to it being an insult; it shows lack of knowledge and understanding of how relationships work on your end.
quote:

  I have had to examine my motives, my behaviors, and my interpersonal skills to become better at being a dominant. I believe (and yes, it is my belief, and a generalization) that most of us have had to do that to be what we want to be.


Are you saying that you HAVE TO WORK at being dominant? If that is the case, then ok, I can understand why you would think it takes more effort. If I was to suddenly switch to being a dominant person, yes, it would take an enormous amount of effort; much more than I put forth now; to accomplish this.
quote:

  Many of the people I referenced in my OP were responding to new or young people. The point of this post was to help those people look at and consider one aspect of growth.

If you are attempting to help newer people come to understand the dynamics of a D/s or M/s relationship; you will have more success by simply stating ‘BE YOURSELF’ ; which can translate very nicely into ‘ communicate, accept the fact that no one is perfect; yourself and your partner included; be honest, and have fun discovering each other.
quote:

  But it boggles MY mind that you feel the need to pick apart the OP

As to why I am picking your OP apart; I am not. I am simply stating why I disagree with you.




KatyLied -> RE: Communication (10/25/2007 5:04:43 AM)

quote:

I have often told my submissive how to alert me when she needs to communicate seriously… It might be a phrase, or a word. Something that works for her and me.


Are you saying she has to use a special word when she needs to communicate with you on a serious matter?  What the heck happened to people just being to talk to each other?




Kana -> RE: Communication (10/25/2007 6:45:00 AM)

Ahhh, the essence of communcation, the ability to disagree and still keep on talking seeking resolution, common ground and understanding. Of course this is obviated the minute one persons mind snaps shut.
I listen with my eyes.





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